1st Dreamer crew?

[Warharan]

Hi everyone,

Got me a dreamer starter set as a present.
This needs painting and a few extra's to get to 50 ss.

What would you recommend for a rather inexperienced Malifaux player who dives for his very first time into Neverborn with a dreamer crew?
Which crew picks and why?

Thanks a bunch in advance.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I haven't played Dreamer since last season, but some thoughts...

As a summoner, you want all his minions so you can summon them. Stitched and daydreams come in a box which is mandatory. Serena and Insidious madness come in a box and are insanely good, BUT you could skip that box while learning. It should be one of your first boxes when you want to get serious with the crew - Insidious Madness take a bit more finesse but are very strong summons.

For me, I would definitely want to get Widow Weaver and Bandersnatch (which I believe come in a box together now). They are such a unique addition to the crew that nothing can really replace them.

For fun-factor, I would definitely recommend grabbing Teddy as well. He is cheap $ wise, effective, and a fun model.

I don't feel like you need anything out-of-keyword or versatile wise for the crew. Keyword models suffice. You don't really need Carver, except he can be useful in specific matchups. I'd worry about grabbing him down the line.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, two daydreams with ancient pact. It is absolutely bonkers, IMO, and I would never take a Dreamer crew without that (unless I was running Zoraida).

Two extra cards and 2 initiative until the daydreams die is super good.

[Warharan]

25 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I haven't played Dreamer since last season, but some thoughts...

<snip>

I don't feel like you need anything out-of-keyword or versatile wise for the crew. Keyword models suffice.

So your recommended order is:

1- Daydreams and stitched
2- Serena + madness
(play some games)

3-Widow Weaver
4-Teddy

(play more games)

5- Carver

Something like this?

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Warharan said:

So your recommended order is:

1- Daydreams and stitched
2- Serena + madness
(play some games)

3-Widow Weaver
4-Teddy

(play more games)

5- Carver

Something like this?

That works fine

Personally for me I'd swap the Serena and Widow weaver/Bandy order. Serena is probably an overall better model, but I find the spiders to be an absolute blast to play.

For Carver, I never ended up buying him and never regretted it, so number 5 could be 'buy another crew' and you buy Carver down the line if it is something you want for your meta.

[SEV]

I respectfully disagree, but I think as a new player you want all your summoning option asap (so Serena + Insidious and daydream + Stitch). Those are mandatory to have a functioning crew. Than you can expand to cool enforcers.

Also the spiders duo are really cool and will help a lot with some scenario/scheme, but they can be hard to play for  new player (at least they're for me - I don't own them, so I can only play them on vassal).

I think carver is far on the list (maybe on par with the Rider or even Angel Eye... which I like probably more than I should).

[Warharan]

Some related questions:

With the Starter, Insomnia and Deep Sleep in hand and nothing else to pick from:

Dreamer (ancient pact; cuz no black joker vulnerability seems good)
+Chompy
Serena
Coppelius

How to fill out the rest?
How many models is preferred (needed) with 'lucid dreams' initially at setup?
Are daydreams any good to begin with? (or would you rather summon these?)

Any other tips/help/guide much appreciated.
I am still trying to warp my mind to the (for me) new rule-set which is Malifaux and not much is obvious to me atm.
(but hope to get there. eventually)
 

[Ogid]

I'd also say go for the 2 boxes with the Minions (+Serena) first, then expand from there. All other models you can get are good, so keep completing the keyword. For a new player Teddy is probably quite straightforward to play but both Carver and the Spiders opens a lot of good options for him; so I wouldn't wait much to get those.

After that you could take a look at the versatile pool, Dreamer plays well with Puppets (because Stitcheds are puppets, Teddy is a construct, Dreamer can stagger, WW can summon Puppets...), so Vasilisa+Dolls and Hinamatsu go well with him. The Rider is also a very popular pick with any crew.

If after picking all that you still want more NVB, just picking the Pandora's core will give you a very playable crew thanks to the overlaped models with Dreamer and the versatiles.

I personally I'm a fan of the Black Blood Shaman into Matures as a tech pick in this faction (for both Focused and scheming power), which is a tech path that mixs well with Puppets. But that would require you to pick Nekima Core and 1 of his Boxes; so I'd say leave that for much later, you can play Nightmare without that quite well.

1 hour ago, Warharan said:

How many models is preferred (needed) with 'lucid dreams' initially at setup?
Are daydreams any good to begin with? (or would you rather summon these?)

Any other tips/help/guide much appreciated.
I am still trying to warp my mind to the (for me) new rule-set which is Malifaux and not much is obvious to me atm.
(but hope to get there. eventually)

For an standard Dreamer crew, I'd say pick 2 or 3 Daydreams, 1-2 extra minions (1 Stitcheds, 2 Stitcheds or 1 Stitched + 1 Insidious; do not hire Alphs), fill the rest with Henchman/Enforcers/upgrades and save a good cache (7+, the cache is important to have the suits to summon and to keep your Henchman and Master alive). That will give you a strong crew with good scaling but still able to fend off early agression.

Then play around with that formula, including more minions you'll have an stronger scaling, but you'll be much more vulnerable early (for example try 1 strong Henchman like Hinamatsu or the Carver + Serena + all minions). Going all stars will give you good models but weaker scaling; each one of those could be good depending on who you are facing.

Daydreams are better hired than summoned (summoned they take a lot of summoning upgrades and are vulnerable being deployed that close to the other player), also they are a very cheap source of card removal that you may want to take advantage from turn 1. You may hire 2 to summon the first turn an Alph or an Stitcheds + Daydream, or you may hire the 3 of them and summon the first turn an stitcheds or an Insidious. After that point the only reason I find to summon them again is if I got a high card to summon that let me summon something+Daydream or very situationally in the last turn if I've lost the 3 of them AND the deck is hot AND I need to attack something with big armor/low defense; then I could consider summoning the 3 of them to try to attack it (after removing most weak card, their damage isn't that bad).

In general try to experiment with different models and see what works for you and what not.

Dreamer is one of the best Masters in the game in terms of power; with his keyword and a few versatiles you should be able to compete regardless of the pool. However mind he can be opressive for new players if you are starting together with other players; Nightmare is a crew that brawls very well and that if it's not put in check early, can snowball very heavily. That's the doom of new players that won't know how to pressure him and could try to brawl too much instead of trying to get VPs. Go easy on other new players.

Hope it helps!

[Regelridderen]

3 hours ago, Warharan said:

Some related questions:

With the Starter, Insomnia and Deep Sleep in hand and nothing else to pick from:

Dreamer (ancient pact; cuz no black joker vulnerability seems good)
+Chompy
Serena
Coppelius

How to fill out the rest?
How many models is preferred (needed) with 'lucid dreams' initially at setup?
Are daydreams any good to begin with? (or would you rather summon these?)

Any other tips/help/guide much appreciated.
I am still trying to warp my mind to the (for me) new rule-set which is Malifaux and not much is obvious to me atm.
(but hope to get there. eventually)
 

I’d recommend for you to try out just starting with Dreamer, Chompy + minions. Wrap your head around the basics, and learn what the strengths and functions of Alps, Insidious, Stitched and Daydreams are - and then at least 6 stones.

After that try adding Serena, Teddy and/or Coppelius, and see what those do. How they function in the crew.

These first models are fairly simple, mostly focused on creating a violence engine to tear the opponent apart.

Once you’ve got a hang of those models and Malifaux rules in general, it’s time to bring in the spiders - these are more tricksy and less straightforward and will add a whole new experience to your game.

After this, it’s time to take a look at the Woe keyword. 

-

But take it easy and accept that you’ll probably lose some games until you get the hang og the game and its objectives. I’d recommend you look into the rules for Henchman Hardcore, this will give you some fast-paced games at first to get the mechanics and principles under your skin before you go for 50 stones master games.

-

And congrats on choosing Neverborn and Dreamer, he’s a nasty little kid, who’ll wreak hell on your opponents. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 hours ago, Warharan said:

Some related questions:

With the Starter, Insomnia and Deep Sleep in hand and nothing else to pick from:

Dreamer (ancient pact; cuz no black joker vulnerability seems good)
+Chompy
Serena
Coppelius

How to fill out the rest?
How many models is preferred (needed) with 'lucid dreams' initially at setup?
Are daydreams any good to begin with? (or would you rather summon these?)

Any other tips/help/guide much appreciated.
I am still trying to warp my mind to the (for me) new rule-set which is Malifaux and not much is obvious to me atm.
(but hope to get there. eventually)
 

Personally I never take ancient pact on Dreamer. Initially he has a 1/54 chance of hitting the black joker with his summon ability. Most games, it isn't even going to come up. So feels like a bit of a waste of an upgrade on him. The card draw + initiative is what makes the upgrade for me, so I always take a core of:

• Dreamer & Chompy
• 2 daydreams with 2 Ancient pacts (I summon the third when I have high enough cards, not a big priority).

And then I fill in the rest based on the pool. For your limited collection and for learning, you'd be fine to add to that Serena, Coppelius, + 2 minions. 

Although this is just my personal preference! Experiment with the lists you like.

[Regelridderen]

41 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Personally I never take ancient pact on Dreamer. Initially he has a 1/54 chance of hitting the black joker with his summon ability. Most games, it isn't even going to come up. So feels like a bit of a waste of an upgrade on him. The card draw + initiative is what makes the upgrade for me...

I second this. Indeed I try to hold the Black Joker in hand instead. With AP on Daydreams, and thinning the deck via Lucid Dreams it makes good sense to save a spot for theBJ on hand.

[Warharan]

 

Quote

re: 2 daydreams with 2 Ancient pacts

These two are kept in the back in a cautious/safe manner presumably?

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Warharan said:

 

These two are kept in the back in a cautious/safe manner presumably?

Yup! I sort of envision Dreamer as having a 'castle' initially, since it is quite hard to get through his crew. He has really strong models, so if you dive straight in, you'll be taking a lot of damage. Some of his models are a bit fragile, so you have to be really good at positioning (which Daydreams help with).

That said, if you get to activate the Daydreams turn 1 and 2, you're already doing pretty well. If your opponent wants to dedicate a lot of resources to killing them, you're only down 5 stones. So don't be reckless with them, but don't jump through too many hoops to keep them alive. Once the crew is snowballing, you'll be doing pretty well anyway.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, if you have the daydreams near Dreamer initially, they can do double duty as bodyguards (if someone attacks Dreamer, you can use Protected to shift the hit to a Daydream). Better to lose a 5 stone model than your master!

Just be careful of blasts, pulses, and shockwaves. Blasts you can dodge by placing exactly 2 inches apart (the 50mm base will be .03 inches short of hitting both models).

[SEV]

Daydream with AP are amazing. Their man utility (beside drawing 1 card a turn and deck thining) is positioning. 10" range for lead nightmare mean that you can keep them safe (but IMO you don't have to hide them in a corner, just be careful with them). Also accomplice can be clutch (attack with DD summon a stitched accomplice to have it activate next).

I personally love to have 3 daydream in my crew, but that's probably because I'm so bad at positioning 🤣

Also, for an esthetic point of view : 1st ed daydreams all the way (I painted those little gui recently and they'll replace their big brother in my M3 crew... they're especially hilarious next to M3 Chompy)... who said that you can't discussed taste 😋

[Regelridderen]

15 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, if you have the daydreams near Dreamer initially, they can do double duty as bodyguards (if someone attacks Dreamer, you can use Protected to shift the hit to a Daydream). Better to lose a 5 stone model than your master!

Just be careful of blasts, pulses, and shockwaves. Blasts you can dodge by placing exactly 2 inches apart (the 50mm base will be .03 inches short of hitting both models).

I’m wary of using Daydreams for Protected. Losing one means losing LD and mobility - I much prefer redirecting to a tankier model e.g. Chompy, Teddy or Serena that can drain your opponents hand. Sacrificing Daydreams just means you’ll be down a card and a model. Of course, its all situational. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

I’m wary of using Daydreams for Protected. Losing one means losing LD and mobility - I much prefer redirecting to a tankier model e.g. Chompy, Teddy or Serena that can drain your opponents hand. Sacrificing Daydreams just means you’ll be down a card and a model. Of course, its all situational. 

For me it is often the only option (unless Dreamer runs in and is using his cricket bat).

Daydreams with AP are definitely the worst possible option out of all the options. Sometimes I'm able to drop hits onto Serena, she works really well. I once had a Seamus shoot my dreamer, dropped it onto Serena, she used her demise, then activated and went back to 7 life by healing herself...

[Warharan]

Thanks for all the input thus far.

What are your thoughts on Coppelius?
I hear Serena is all the rage but no one mentioned him despite his cute little tentacle face.

Is he good/bad/situational?
He seems decent in my experienced eyes. But I wonder if he is worth the 9 stones...

Thoughts?

[SEV]

I think Copelius will be your go to schemer as long as you don't have the spiders... than it's not clear (for me at least) when you should take him. He's still good as an elite schemer killer, but at 9ss it's hard to find spa e for him.

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 hours ago, Warharan said:

Thanks for all the input thus far.

What are your thoughts on Coppelius?
I hear Serena is all the rage but no one mentioned him despite his cute little tentacle face.

Is he good/bad/situational?
He seems decent in my experienced eyes. But I wonder if he is worth the 9 stones...

Thoughts?

I think the general consensus on him is that he is okay... The problem is the rest of the keyword is BONKERS. So often Coppelius stays at home just because he is outshined by all the other options.

Agree with the above, you'll use him a bit until you get the spiders, and then he'll be an occasional thing. His built in trigger on his melee (which comes with a push) is pretty darn sweet though. I imagine it'd be good in leylines, for example (and he'd possibly be a good lodestone carrier, being able to get from one marker to another pretty quickly).

[karukame]

On 12/25/2020 at 8:54 PM, Warharan said:

Hi everyone,

Got me a dreamer starter set as a present.
This needs painting and a few extra's to get to 50 ss.

What would you recommend for a rather inexperienced Malifaux player who dives for his very first time into Neverborn with a dreamer crew?
Which crew picks and why?

Thanks a bunch in advance.

IF you have bought New box, then just get Insomnia and deep slumber boxes (its 3 madnesses, 3 stiches,3 daydreams, and Serena bowman.) and It will be enough. Its actually enough to get top3 at local tournaments consistently

Also widow weaver is great addition. 

 

One of the most OP lists is here. If you dont want to get a lot of boxes just change widow weaver for 3d stitched and daydream. 

https://m3e.page.link/SGHL2TgUfDS9r5y47

[Warharan]

Another question; is there a rule of thumb (of sorts) for the number of 'lucid dreamers' in your crew?

(and once again; thanks for all the very helpful insights and comments!)

[Warharan]

4 hours ago, karukame said:

<snip>
If you dont want to get a lot of boxes just change widow weaver for 3d stitched and daydream. 

 

 

Unfortunately there is no Widow Weaver anywhere for sale.
Not where I am looking anyway. 😕

But it certainly is on my wishlist. (if only for the actual models!)

[MrPieChee]

1 hour ago, Warharan said:

Unfortunately there is no Widow Weaver anywhere for sale.
Not where I am looking anyway. 😕

But it certainly is on my wishlist. (if only for the actual models!)

 

She's in the box "Things that Go Bump", but a quick look and it appears to be out of stock in a lot of places.

[extremor]

1 hour ago, Warharan said:

Another question; is there a rule of thumb (of sorts) for the number of 'lucid dreamers' in your crew?

(and once again; thanks for all the very helpful insights and comments!)

I like to play lucid dream heavy and use 5-7x lucid dreams every turn.