Lamp Markers

[belorey]

Can a model moved through a Lamp Market?

[trikk]

If you mean "lamp marker" from lamplighter then yes, as they are not impassable.

[belorey]

5 minutes ago, trikk said:

If you mean "lamp marker" from lamplighter then yes, as they are not impassable.

So their Ht4 is only to check LoS?

[Takibaki]

The Lamp Markers are Ht 4 Concealing.

That means, as trikk already mentioned, that they are not impassable. The only Terrain Traits they posses are Concealing and Ht 4.

I think they have the Ht-Trait only for reasons of completeness, since every Terrain has some Height to clarify its ingame effects. Rocks, Crates, Houses and even Forests have a Height. It think of those markers as burning/shining beacons, which suits the idea of Lamp Markers and therefor a Height seems relevent to illustrate their Characteristics.

Additionally Jedza, the Master of the Seeker Crew has an Action called "Life of the Earth" which depends on terrain-types. Thats why I think it would be an overkill to have those Markers gain impassable too. It seems to be clear, when I think of the design standpoint.

 

To your last question: Since the Markers are also not Blocking, you can easily see through. And LoS is allways measured from a models base. That given, your question might be the correct answer. Maybe it should be very hard to get around the concealing trait and therefore the Ht of 4.

Best regards, Takibaki

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

When drawing LOS to a model, you get to ignore it for drawing LOS if either model is a greater height.

So with lampmarkers, this will come up if targeting like a Grave Golem standing on some terrain (making it height 5).

[Takibaki]

14 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

When drawing LOS to a model, you get to ignore it for drawing LOS if either model is a greater height.

So with lampmarkers, this will come up if targeting like a Grave Golem standing on some terrain (making it height 5).

Do you mean, that neither the Grave Golem, nor the other model suffer from concealment??

 

I am not quite sure about this.

What you are refering to is "Line of Sight and Size" Page 17 of PDF Rulebook:

"A model´s Size can impact LoS. When drawing LoS between to objects, any intervening models or terrain with a Size or Height that is lower than either of the two objects is ignored."

I understand yout point, but I think that passage only referes to the process of drawing LoS. But I would asume, that Terrain, that is smaller than one of the models is still taken into consideration regarding Concealment or Cover.

My main point here, is, that in Chapter "Line of Sight" beginning on Page 16 of PDF Rulebook, the only two attributes a Sightline can posses seem to be "blocked" and "unblocked". So the terrain, that is smaller is only ignored for the purpose of blocking LoS. At least thats how i played it all along XD.

 

Some statements of Page 16:

"A sight line is an imaginary straight line between two points on the edges of two objects bases. Sight lines are drawn from a top-down perspective."

This indicates, that sight lines are drawn from the actual bases.

 

I think, that, if a Ht 1 gremlin less than 1" away from a Ht. 1 Blocking crate would gain cover against a shooting Ht. 2 model from the other side of the crate. At least, thats how my imagination works.

The same is true for me, if i would imagine a Ht 1 bush/shrub with Concealing.

 

But I am looking forward to hear your opinion on this, maybe I am getting this false all along. But why would there be any necessitiy of having Ht 1 Terrain other than those with impassable?

 

Best regards, Takibaki

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Takibaki I don't have the rules book on me, but from memory concealment and cover are defined using sight lines.

So any rulings on LOS will apply to them.

[Scoffer]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Takibaki I don't have the rules book on me, but from memory concealment and cover are defined using sight lines.

So any rulings on LOS will apply to them.

Rules on sight lines and rules on LoS are different.

LoS requires unblocked sight lines and objects of lower Sz/Ht are ignored only when you need to check if sight lines are blocked or not.

Concealment doesn't care about blocked/unblocked sight lines. Model has concealment if any sight line passes through concealing terrain.

There are several concealing markers (for example McTavish's Swamp Screen or Fae's Underbrush Markers) that have no Ht. If LoS rules were applied to concealment, that markers would have Sz0 and would be absolutely useless (it's hard to imagine McTavish being more useless than he is now!).

On 12/22/2020 at 1:21 AM, belorey said:

So their Ht4 is only to check LoS?

Yes. Marker's Ht is important when you draw LoS to it/from it. Lamplighters need LoS to Lamps to target them with bonus actions. Auras, generated by that bonus actions, also need LoS to models to affect them. 

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Scoffer said:

Concealment doesn't care about blocked/unblocked sight lines. Model has concealment if any sight line passes through concealing terrain.

Concealment gained from concealing terrain does.

Quote

3. If an Action does not require or ignores LoS, are sight lines for the Action still drawn to determine Cover and Concealment? a) No. If an Action does not require LoS, sight lines aren’t drawn. However, Cover and Concealment can still be gained from other effects such as Bodyguard and Sputtering Exhaust.

And since we know that ignoring terrain means you're unaffected by its terrain traits, any opposed duel with a Sz 5+ model is ignoring the concealing of Lamp Markers.

As for why markers like underbrush or dust cloud markers still give concealment, they aren't Ht or Sz 0. They have no Ht stat and not having a Ht stat is not the same as the Ht stat being 0

Quote

Unless otherwise noted, Markers do not count as terrain and have no vertical distance (i.e., Height or Size). Markers that count as terrain will have one or more Terrain Traits (such as a Concealing, Severe Dust Cloud Marker).

No Ht stat means it can't be lower than either model, so it doesn't get ignored for LoS.

[Adran]

I think the only purpose of the ht of the lamp is to block los to it for its auras when lit. I don't think ht and concealing interact at all. 

I can't actually work out what santaclaws is trying to say, but it doesn't look right/ relevant to me. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

17 minutes ago, Adran said:

I think the only purpose of the ht of the lamp is to block los to it for its auras when lit. I don't think ht and concealing interact at all. 

I can't actually work out what santaclaws is trying to say, but it doesn't look right/ relevant to me. 

Sorry, how does it block LOS for auras? It isn't blocking or dense?

EDIT: oh you mean a size four model can stop its aura from reaching something.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Wait, how big are the markers?

And if they're 30mm, can a 40mm stand on it to block the aura (since the aura is measured from the base from memory?

That doesn't seem right, but nor does it seem right the terrain travels through the model xD

[Maniacal_cackle]

As for the 'can you be tall enough to ignore height 4 concealing' question, I agree with Santa.

Rules on concealing work based on sight lines:

Quote

If a sight line drawn to a model passes through Concealing Terrain, that model has Concealment. When drawing sight lines, a model in Concealing Terrain may ignore that terrain’s Concealing trait if any single sight line drawn between the two objects passes through 1" or less of that terrain. Most fog banks count as Concealing Terrain.

And the Line of sight rules tell us that if you're taller than an object, you ignore it for LOS:

Quote

A model’s Size can impact LoS. When drawing LoS between two objects, any intervening models or terrain with a Size or Height that is lower than either of the two objects is ignored

Of course there's the assertion above that there's a difference between Line of Sight and sight lines. But the quote from the FAQ provided by Santa helps clarify that you only draw sight lines for LOS:

Quote

If an Action does not require or ignores LoS, are sight lines for the Action still drawn to determine Cover and Concealment?a) No. If an Action does not require LoS, sight lines aren’t drawn. However, Cover and Concealment can still be gained from other effects such as Bodyguard and Sputtering Exhaust.

Though that is a bit ambiguous, since it is directed at something else. But I believe when this has come up before, the game gets a bit wonky if you treat sight lines as independent of the rules for LOS.

As a counterfactual, I wondered what if you applied the same logic to "Blocking", but then blocking doesn't talk about sight for cover purposes (that's a feature of shadows, which work a bit differently).

[Jesy Blue]

So walking a Whiskey Golem onto a Lamp marker gives the Golem Concealing but blocks all other effects from occurring?

[Nukemouse]

4 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

So walking a Whiskey Golem onto a Lamp marker gives the Golem Concealing but blocks all other effects from occurring?

If its blocking the whole thing then can't nobody draw lines through the concealing, so there's no concealing?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Nukemouse said:

If its blocking the whole thing then can't nobody draw lines through the concealing, so there's no concealing?

That's a good point xD

So even a size one model can stop the sight lines being drawn?

[Nukemouse]

Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

That's a good point xD

So even a size one model can stop the sight lines being drawn?

I think it has to be 40mm? I don't think a 30mm can do it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Nukemouse said:

I think it has to be 40mm? I don't think a 30mm can do it.

Oh, are lamp markers 30mm?

But also any size model can do it for certain angles.

EDIT: Actually a size 30mm model can block lines of sight going THROUGH a 30mm marker.

[Jesy Blue]

5 minutes ago, Nukemouse said:

If its blocking the whole thing then can't nobody draw lines through the concealing, so there's no concealing?

Oh, the marker is concealing; I thought it was an aura of concealing.  So yeah, no one gets concealing or the other stuff.

[santaclaws01]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Wait, how big are the markers?

And if they're 30mm, can a 40mm stand on it to block the aura (since the aura is measured from the base from memory?

Only if the model is Sz 4 or bigger, since the Lamp is Ht 4 and smaller models would get ignored when drawing LoS to it.

[Jesy Blue]

Makes that easy as all Sz 4 models are on 50mm bases.

However, Bayou has an upgrade that increases Sz by 1 & Explorer's Society has the Bellhop Porter (but it's only during their turn, so more limiting).

[Scoffer]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

So even a size one model can stop the sight lines being drawn?

There are only two situations when sight lines can't be drawn:

1. When drawing sight lines between objects they can't be drawn through that objects' bases.

2. Sight lines can't be drawn through floor/ceiling when objects are on different levels of the same terrain piece.

In other situations when LoS is checked all possible sight lines are drawn. Some of them are blocked but still exist at full length between objects. It is important for abilities like Francois' Showdown.

[Paddywhack]

On 12/24/2020 at 1:10 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Of course there's the assertion above that there's a difference between Line of Sight and sight lines. But the quote from the FAQ provided by Santa helps clarify that you only draw sight lines for LOS:

Quote

If an Action does not require or ignores LoS, are sight lines for the Action still drawn to determine Cover and Concealment?a) No. If an Action does not require LoS, sight lines aren’t drawn. However, Cover and Concealment can still be gained from other effects such as Bodyguard and Sputtering Exhaust.

I think you are making this FAQ apply more broadly that intended. The FAQ specifically is asking about abilities that do NOT need LOS to work. In those cases you don't draw Sight Lines and are not affected by normal cover/concealment.

If you need LOS, then you still draw sight lines. If any sight lines passes through Concealing Terrain, that model gets Concealment (p73 CR). Do you need LOS? Do any sight lines pass through concealing terrain? If both are yes, then there is Concealment (barring some other special rule of course).

The rule on p53 CR about Line of Sight and Size is only telling you to ignore models and terrain of lower size for the purpose of drawing LOS. Not everything. That whole section is only talking about how to determine LOS. P 55 CR gives a good example:

"If the Guild Hound had been Size 4( larger than the terrain), then Parker and GH would have LoS to each other, since its size would be larger than the terrain. In this circumstance the GH would have Cover from Parker's  Actions (since it's within the terrain's Shadow), but Parker would not have Cover from the GH's  actions as he is not in the terrain's Shadow."

If, as you suggest, all terrain traits are ignored due to size, then neither model would get cover as one of them was larger. They clearly spell out that that is not the case. Same would apply for an Concealing terrain with a Ht. 

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

I think you are making this FAQ apply more broadly that intended. The FAQ specifically is asking about abilities that do NOT need LOS to work. In those cases you don't draw Sight Lines and are not affected by normal cover/concealment.

It was being used in response to scoffer making a distinction between sight lines and line of sight, which doesn't exist as that FAQ shows.

3 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

If you need LOS, then you still draw sight lines. If any sight lines passes through Concealing Terrain, that model gets Concealment (p73 CR). Do you need LOS? Do any sight lines pass through concealing terrain? If both are yes, then there is Concealment (barring some other special rule of course).

Are you really drawing sight lines through concealing terrain if the concealing terrain is being ignored?

4 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

The rule on p53 CR about Line of Sight and Size is only telling you to ignore models and terrain of lower size for the purpose of drawing LOS.

Firstly, it does not say that. You're making a distinction that doesn't exist. Secondly, if terrain is ignored for the purposes of drawing LoS, and concealment from concealing terrain is only determined by drawing LoS, saying something is only ignored for the purpose of drawing LoS doesn't mean you still account for other things only gained when drawing LoS.

4 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

"If the Guild Hound had been Size 4( larger than the terrain), then Parker and GH would have LoS to each other, since its size would be larger than the terrain. In this circumstance the GH would have Cover from Parker's  Actions (since it's within the terrain's Shadow), but Parker would not have Cover from the GH's  actions as he is not in the terrain's Shadow."

If, as you suggest, all terrain traits are ignored due to size, then neither model would get cover as one of them was larger. They clearly spell out that that is not the case. Same would apply for an Concealing terrain with a Ht. 

An example doesn't tell us the language of the rules, it tells us how to apply them

The actual language of the shadow rules is here, and debunks your assertation.

"When drawing sight lines from one model to another, if either model is in the Shadow of terrain with Height equal to or greater than the Size of that model (even partially), any sight lines that pass through the terrain generating that Shadow are blocked (even if the terrain is being ignored due to its Height, as per the Line of Sight and Size rules on pg. 17)."

And
 
"Models within a terrain’s Shadow (even partially) have Cover against any  Actions that can draw one or more sight lines through that terrain"

So this tells us that sight lines are still blocked even if the terrain generating the shadow is being ignored due to height so long as the defending model is in shadow, and that since the sight lights are going through the terrain generating the shadow, the defending model has cover.

[Mycellanious]

On 12/24/2020 at 12:23 PM, santaclaws01 said:

 

And since we know that ignoring terrain means you're unaffected by its terrain traits, any opposed duel with a Sz 5+ model is ignoring the concealing of Lamp Markers.

As for why markers like underbrush or dust cloud markers still give concealment, they aren't Ht or Sz 0. They have no Ht stat and not having a Ht stat is not the same as the Ht stat being 0

No Ht stat means it can't be lower than either model, so it doesn't get ignored for LoS.

I do not believe this correct. According to pg. 28 digital, when drawing LoS to a marker without a Ht value it is treated as a Sz 0 model. Therefore according to this interpretation, underbrush markers would have no effect. Similarly, Scrapyard Mines, pit trap markers, Pyre markers, all would have no effect on enemy models. Furthermore this interpretation would dramatically change the way Malifaux is played, since all models would now ignore Ht 0 Severe rivers and Sz 4 models can walk through Ht 3 buildings as if they are incorporeal. 

Furthermore, the rule your interpretation is relying is found specifically under the LoS section of the rulebook, and not the Terrain section. This is relevant because it is prefraced specifically with "When drawing LoS," indicating that the terrain is ignored solely for LoS purposes. I think the claim that this sentence means that models are "uneffected" by terrain smaller than them is baseless, where does it say in the rules that models are uneffected by the terrain traits of terrain smaller than them?

[Mycellanious]

3 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

The actual language of the shadow rules is here, and debunks your assertation.

"When drawing sight lines from one model to another, if either model is in the Shadow of terrain with Height equal to or greater than the Size of that model (even partially), any sight lines that pass through the terrain generating that Shadow are blocked (even if the terrain is being ignored due to its Height, as per the Line of Sight and Size rules on pg. 17)."

And
 
"Models within a terrain’s Shadow (even partially) have Cover against any  Actions that can draw one or more sight lines through that terrain"

So this tells us that sight lines are still blocked even if the terrain generating the shadow is being ignored due to height so long as the defending model is in shadow, and that since the sight lights are going through the terrain generating the shadow, the defending model has cover.

Its actually a bit more extreme than this. Any model in the shadoa of terrain will gain cover if sight lines from the attacker pass through it. A sz 2 model standing behind a ht 1 wall WILL GAIN COVER from a Sz 3 model trying to shoot it. What that rule specifies, is that a Sz 2 model 2" away from a size 2 wall cannot be seen by ANY SIZE model on the other side of the wall. If the Size 2 model were 2.1" away from the wall, then the wall does not give cover and sight lines are not blocked