ooshawn Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 So while it might seem like a vitriolic statement at first, that's not my intention. I'm just wondering how many other people are having the same thoughts I am. Most of the people I know that played malifaux started in first of very early second edition. I'm getting back into since taking off at the say 80% done mark of second edition. While trying to find a few specific models to round things out, a situation I keep running into is either a model A)switched factions, B) is a singular model trapped within a new box. Now me personally, being light on cash this particular holiday season, I can't really justify buying the box or the singles off ebay for a game, that appears to have died in my entire state. (kentucky). And while it's regrettable , and understandable due to the current situation the whole world is having, I still can't help but feel like the just in your face obviousness cash grab type tactics of splitting models between factions (fine by me) and packing needed models into boxes with other things already owned just feels like it's come to a head, and I can't even say I wanna invest in this type of system. To catch my collette/raspy crew up, my entire neverborn and rezzers factions, my vikky/tara crew. I can't even imagine how many singles I would have to try to hunt down on ebay. For me It's really coming to a head with just trying to find a angel eyes model, for my very first game back into malifaux, and I don't even have nekima's totem mind you. While this rant isn't supposed to be making any certain, direct claims, it's more of a short insight into just how a interaction like this might make someone feel about coming back into the game. Do I just sell all my stuff for basically pennies on the dollar, do I shell out 20$ on ebay for a angel eyes model + shipping for a game that seems to be very dead in my state, or do I just proxy? LIke I said I'm not making any particular claims, just saying how this one interaction really hampered my desire to play this game, even though I have a massive collection. Just not being able to easily obtain one singular model has nearly changed my entire mindset. I can't imagine how many other people once the global situation clears up, what kind of gaming situation they are gonna be looking at. Though, I can certain assume there are many, many more broke people like myself that are gonna have to make hard choices and quite frankly it sucks. End of random rant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 Struggling to get through your whole post since it is just one big chain of text without paragraphs, but... Here's my take. I am very sceptical that the sole reason (or even a main reason) Wyrd packages products in unfortunate ways is to increase sales. Rather this is a side effect. Wyrd's packaging decisions seem likely to be based on... What is good for LGS's and distributors. LGS's do not want to stock a billion different boxes. The more consolidated the products, the better for them. New players. New players find it easy to collect (most) keywords. You just buy all the boxes with your keyword on them. Historical biases, sprue sizes, other practical logistics Why do models X and Y have to come in the same box? Because sprue sizes worked out that way. Why have Belles with M3E Seamus? Becaues M2E Seamus had Belles. Etc. Additionally, the second hand market sorts out some of the worst cases (you can buy stuff on Gadzooks as singles, Ebay, etc). Ideally Wyrd would have more generous proxying/conversion standards in their official tournaments, but that is pretty irrelevant. Pretty much the entire New Zealand meta allows custom conversions and sculpts as long as they look good (one guy sculpted huskies instead of Hoarcats for Rasputina and no one objects to playing with them). Models being hard to find is not some under-handed tactic to make them lots of money, I suspect. After all, whenever they package models in an annoying way like this, everyone in my meta just skips purchasing the box. I think packaging like this loses wyrd some sales, but it saves them a ton of money in practicality and logistic costs. That's my theory anyway, but I don't think models being hard-to-acquire is necessarily their plan A. Granted, there are some players who are in really unfortunate positions like yourself. Which I'm sorry to hear that! 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 Also worth noting that Wyrd sales seem to be absolutely through the roof. They kept selling out of things because demand was so much higher than anticipated. I think the M3E model is working well, from their perspective. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 I can understand your statement, and I agree. However my post doesn't really assert any particular claim or truth to be had. Only that it's frustrating to be unable to obtain models that aren't available easily for people who already own a lot of their own collection. Hopefully they are doing well and people are still gaming, just not from what I can see in my state with the facebook groups. If there was no tactic to make people buy boxes that contain product they already own, why don't they offer every model available to be purchased through special order? Angel eyes doesn't appear to be available on gadzooks either. Malifaux | Neverborn | Gadzooks Gaming. Intentionality isn't really as important to me at this moment as the effect that I can't even really buy a 10$ model without spending at least triple that to have the official model. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azahul Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 The other games I play keep running into the issue of SKU bloat (i.e. there are far too many individual boxes for any LGS to keep stock of even a significant spread of models in the system at any one time), so I always assumed the Wyrd method of packaging four models in combo boxes was primarily to address that. It's also really new player friendly. No one in my group has played any previous edition, and part of our initial interest was that it seemed like you could buy a core box and one other Keyword box for nearly any crew in the game and bam, 50 Soulstone list. ...of course that ended up being a trap, but a really fun trap to fall into It certainly is markedly less friendly for veteran players, but to be fair to Wyrd new players are both bigger spenders than veterans/returning players and Game Stores are the main vehicle for selling their models, so it is a lot more important to appeal to those two sides of the business than long time customers. Purely anecdotally, but Malifaux certainly seems to be selling well in my corner of the world too, so it doesn't seem to be hurting them. I kind of can't imagine making things annoying for long time players would, either. Bluntly, the value a long term player gives to a game is through being a part of a community. A strong community makes the game more appealing to outsiders and lowers the barrier for entry to new players, who are the primary driver of sales. The fact that you might need to buy $50 worth of models you already own to get one piece you haven't already got isn't likely to be an intentional way of milking you for cash, simply because I doubt any game company is expecting significant income from someone who already owns 80% of the pieces in their given faction. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 I agree with this, however it only really solidifies my opinion that if they aren't going to offer a decent option for people in my situation that I shouldn't bother supporting them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azahul Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 That is certainly a fair decision to make. You're under no obligation to support them and their strategy isn't catered towards you, so it's absolutely a fair call to make to not do so. I think Wyrd has offered time sensitive options to buy individual models over the course of the edition change, at least? So they made an effort. I can't imagine that those boxes are enormously profitable though, for the reasons discussed above (a product aimed at veterans, typically the lower spending demographic who are likely to own most of what is on offer via that service), so it makes sense that they've largely wound down those options. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 Oh, also just to be sure you're aware - at some point (if it isn't already), Angel Eyes will be released in a third edition box (likely with the half-bloods). So you'll be able to get four models you don't own together. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkan Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 I'm just thinking about the fact that Angel Eyes originated in the M2E two player starter set, a box containing four Guild models and four Neverborn models. And that the second edition era also featured two or three story encounter boxes where the model contents were split across two factions... The models in those situations were grouped like that because it was thematic, pretty much heedless of the idea that someone might want to collect individual models strategically. Just like the various crew boxes (master, totem, some minions, and usually a henchman and/or enforcer) were thematically organized. There's a reference the M2E to M3E repackaging/reorganization on https://www.wyrd-games.net/news/2019/4/29/wyrd-retailer-newsletter-launch-plans which mentions going from 337 different SKUs to 186. I think it's pretty fair to say that the only way a miniature company can produce and sell a large line of individual models in the modern era is if that company is still producing metal figures, and selling those figures direct order only on a website. Hell, even a game like Marvel Crisis Protocol which resolves mostly around individual characters from different comic books has an eight model starter pack and various two model packs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 All very insightful answers. The half-blood box idea does give me hope as well. You would think they could be more forth coming with that though. I remember they used to show their releases quite a long ways out. Maybe even a year from what I can remember Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azahul Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 I think if there's one lesson you can take away from 2020, it's that you really can't get any information of note from a year-out forecast I've noticed some shifting just in the upcoming releases they do have up, which only go out by like two months. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 2 hours ago, ooshawn said: All very insightful answers. The half-blood box idea does give me hope as well. You would think they could be more forth coming with that though. I remember they used to show their releases quite a long ways out. Maybe even a year from what I can remember I think it is the triple whammy of pre-covid supply disruptions, post-covid supply disruptions, AND the launch of a new edition all in one year. They've just stopped being able to announce things that far in advance. However, we can infer that it is almost certainly going to be those four models together (I believe the other half of that box has already been boxed together elsewhere). There is, however, a chance they do Angel Eyes on their own and half-bloods separately. Or they may form a starter box together (since every faction is getting its own starter box). Or they may have new models released. Who knows! But whatever the case, there will likely be a box that has something for Angel-Eyes eventually. A new edition just means that it is going to take some time, and in the meantime you can usually find a crew worth playing - after all, you can get a playable crew for ~$80-$100USD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 7 hours ago, ooshawn said: All very insightful answers. The half-blood box idea does give me hope as well. You would think they could be more forth coming with that though. I remember they used to show their releases quite a long ways out. Maybe even a year from what I can remember Welcome back. I think that you are mixing up 3 or 4 different issues at the same time. I don't think I've ever seen more than 6months and that was models that were pre-released in Gencon, with their expected release dates, not everything that was released. And players have not helped themselves here, because the outcry when something was announced as "released in 2 months" and then got put back is surprisingly huge at times. Although the books have generally been the next uyears release schedule, which may well be the same again once it has caugth upo from the new editon updates. There are few models that have switched faction over edition changes (Killjoy, Barbaros, Silurids/Gupps/mother, Rattler, Raptor and previously the whole of the bayou faction that existed before the bayou faction existed I suppose). There is a larger number that were duel faction and lost 1 faction (made more noticiable this edition as they removed duel faction from anything that wasn't a master/totem), or were single faction and gained a faction. It can make old collections not work as well as you want (Graves an Tannen losing Neverborn is a common complaint) but the new releases ougth to have less of the issues of buying the wrong faction to get what you want. Wyrd did announce at edition change that they were going to sell M2 boxes for a while to try and avoid your problems, and when new models were released with old models they were allowing people to just buy the new models for a time. (Check out the special order program. Very soon the Blood hunter for Nekima should appear on it, if thats what you need). Although I imagine the logistic of this and the cost of this are pretty lareg for Wyrd, hence them not doign it for long. Angle eyes hasn't yet got a M3 release (at least as far as I remember), so the problems in finding her are the same for new players as old. Probably not helped as it was a while since the M2E starter was released, so there probably aren't that many left in the wild unsold. Finally, it seems a little strange to me to complain that buying individual models is expensive, but selling off your whole collection would go very cheaply. It may well be true, but you might also be able to sell off some of your collection as singles to help fund your buying of other singles or new boxes. I've had to look at my M1/M2 collection and carefully plan what I wanted to buy in M2 boxes, and what I could either not buy, or accept if I get later I'll get some doubles. I've also kept a close eye on the Special orders to make sure that I do get those ones that matter to me when they come up. I'm sure that at some point in the future I'm going to want to buy something that's only available with stuff I already have and decide that my desire for it is great enough that I will need to get the repeat models, but I made that choice a while ago when I accepted that I was going to buy cool things, which will get me mulitples of some things. I almost certainly don't need 3 Ice golems each with a different sculpt, but that didn't stop me getting the translucent Rasputina, and then the winter wonderland set. I feel some of your pain, but claiming it is a "cash grab" does seem untrue, and not really backed up by your issues (which are real issues, and things that in part Wyrd have tried to offer a solution, even if it was time limited). I hope you get your game, even if you can't use Angle eyes, and hopefully you enjoy it. I would imagine that in a collection the size you seem to have, you can field several different crews already, and so get plenty of enjoyment without actually havign to buy anything else if you didn't want to. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regelridderen Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 I don't smell any cash grabs from Wyrd in the repackaging. There's a lot of sense in reducing the number of SKUs, both making it easier for retailers to stock - and so ensure that it becomes available. And also to simplify purchases for newcomers. Just getting three boxes to collect a keyword that plays well and competitively is about as simple as it gets. I mean, how many of those 3 minion boxes they had before were actually getting sold. When the same minions came along with crew boxes? Retailer hate dust collectors like these. - Wyrd's gone above and beyond catering to their M2 players in offering the Special Order program for new models. You wouldn't see anything like that from a certain company in Nottingham. It's a big hassle that goes against the intent of the repackaging - personally I'd prefer it, if they ditched it and just focused on getting their base distribution up and running, but kudos to Wyrd for offering it. - About being broke. That's harsh... But ultimate that's not Wyrd's responsibility. They should be more concerned with guys who hand them a couple of hundred bucks a month. That's what going to ensure that they won't be out of a job. Your concern shouldn't be the price of toys, but on how you improve your situation in life. Once you've done that, you'll get to play with all the toys you want. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 I think for me the frustrating part is I always Try to support the company whose mini's I play with, and not being able to get hold of angel eyes for less than 40$ or so really irked me. While I most definitely could proxy her, to me it would always feel inferior, along with the blood hunter. I think You all are probably correct in that I should probably sell some singles to offset the cost of finishing a crew or two. It was very nice that they removed dual faction from anything that wasn't a master. I suppose I could sell tara/vikis and all my outcasts and that could fuel picking up angel eyes eventually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muraki Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 32 minutes ago, ooshawn said: I think for me the frustrating part is I always Try to support the company whose mini's I play with, and not being able to get hold of angel eyes for less than 40$ or so really irked me. I get this one. As a bit of a completionist, I hate seeing a model or box set I want on ebay for 3-4 times the MSRP and wondering if it's worth it. I remember picking up a cherri bomb/alt rafkin for 40+ each off ebay when it seemed that Wyrd wasn't going to get them on any of their usual sales. I know you mentioned not loving proxies (which I get, proxies can be surprisingly jarring). But I've seen some good work done with the wyrd multipart kits (tho the females models are a bit amazonian) and I really love using ToS models for proxies (tho since few people sell them piecemeal it'll prolly be just about as expensive as picking angel eyes up solo). I really like the ECB Black Ops models from Burning man for proxies (have proxied a undercover reporter / alan reid from that set) and could see the girl with the shotgun being a good Angel Eyes. There is also a painted angel eyes on ebay for 21 +4 shipping (tho it has a make an offer so maybe you can pull em down a bit) if you're in the US. Still a bit high for a model that should be 12ish. Goodluck with what you decide on, there's no simple answer. I know how frustrating it is to feel like you need to rebuy boxes for certain models. A few people in my meta are in the same boat as they started getting into malifaux at the start of m3e, but after most of the m2e boxes were sold, so were left in odd spots for masters like Ironsides where her box was shifted around but she didn't get new sculpts, so buying pieces of her in m2e really just meant you'd get duplicates of the same sculpt if you needed to get things for her in m3e. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEV Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 3 hours ago, ooshawn said: I think for me the frustrating part is I always Try to support the company whose mini's I play with, and not being able to get hold of angel eyes for less than 40$ or so really irked me. [Edit, my bad for the wrong reference, the second part of my post still stand] I'm sure you can fin this model for less than 40$ somewhere on the internet. Good luck. I don't really have an opinion on the rest of your post, but financial situations can be tricky for some of us, especially this year. This is just a hobby, there's more important thing... And on wyrd side, they have to make profit too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Caroland Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 Yup, and that website you just posted (and I removed) is a re-caster who illegally casts and sells miniatures not of their own out of another country. Not really the place to support or advertise as most folks don't realize it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 I think more than anything, I'm just frustrated i'm broke and can't get this singular model that i've fixated on 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEV Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 12 minutes ago, Nathan Caroland said: Yup, and that website you just posted (and I removed) is a re-caster who illegally casts and sells miniatures not of their own out of another country. Not really the place to support or advertise as most folks don't realize it. Oups Sorry! Maybe I was a little bit too quick on my Google search! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
touchdown Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 I think the 3rd edition boxes are actually much more consumer friendly. Hannah alone was $35, Between the Leylines is $45 and comes with 2 Librarians (single small models were usually ~$12 before). That's way better if you don't own any of the models. Now this is bad for me since I have already bought Hannah and 1 Librarian so there's no good way to get the 2nd librarian sculpt but it's much friendlier to someone who has none. I've had a lot of luck scouring ebay for getting single models and the free app and print on demand cards both mean it's easy to get 1st or 2nd edition stuff and use it. There's going to be some difficulty with changing editions there's just no way around it, but I think this has been handled reasonably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 yeah. if I was just getting into malifaux, this would for sure be the time in that regard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueskies_overhead Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 21 hours ago, ooshawn said: So while it might seem like a vitriolic statement at first, that's not my intention. I'm just wondering how many other people are having the same thoughts I am. If you don't want to pay the prices for the individual figs, just buy a good resin printer and print proxies that will be close enough until you can get the individuals or Wyrd starts selling stl files. You won't be able to find an angel eyes fig, but a woman with a gun with 30mm base should be decent enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 5 hours ago, ooshawn said: yeah. if I was just getting into malifaux, this would for sure be the time in that regard If you try out a new faction, you'll find that the boxes are pretty great! Angel-eyes specifically is just suffering from the 'not released yet' problem that every game has in a new edition. I'm actually impressed with how fast Wyrd IS releasing models (it has been a year and a half since they launched the edition, and they've released over 80% of models I think). And that's with supply disruptions. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 The only thing I don't understand is why they don't double-release models that are split over multiple factions. Wanyudo could come in "the returned" box. Paul Crockett could come in the sand worm box. I imagine it is a bit of a sprue/casting issue in some cases (Wanyudo has always come with Minako Rei), but Paul Crockett has a tiny sprue not connected to anything else. Including it with the sand worm box seems like a good idea. Of course, that'd be bad for people like me who went and bought the second edition Paul Crockett, but oh well 😜 I imagine this is a tiny problem to Wyrd though and if they do fix it, it is low on the priority list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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