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Place Effects with restrictions, Moving, and English Ivan


Whut

Question

1) English Ivan can summon a model with a Living Shadow Upgrade. On this upgrade is the Split Ability. Can the model summoned take 2 irreducible damage before being placed during the summoning effect? Since the effect is before the move, you don't get the marker, but the 2 damage could be taken to heal it using Ivan's aura when it activates and trigger Chronicle effects.

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Split: Once Per Activation. Before this model moves, it may suffer 2 irreducible damage to Drop a Destructible, Concealing Shadow Marker into base contact with itself.

2) Mr Mordrake has the Born of Shadow Ability and the Shade Step Action. When he uses Shade Step, can he:
a) Be placed anywhere, since wherever he is placed he makes the area within (A)1 of himself Concealing Terrain, satisfying the condition of Shade Step
b) Be placed within 1" of himself, since that area is considered to be Concealing Terrain until he is removed from the table
Essentially, what this is asking is the order of operations between removing the placing model, checking that the condition of the place is met, and putting the placing model back on the table. I believe (A) is remove, place, check while (B) is check, remove, place. There is also the possibility (C) of remove, check, place. I think (A) is correct since I don't know how you would perform the check in (B) or (C) if the model is not in its final position to be able to check conditions.

Quote

Born of Shadow: The area within (A)1 of this model is treated as Concealing Terrain

Shade Step: Place this model anywhere within range in Concealing Terrain

 

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8 minutes ago, Whut said:

2.5) This is more of a thought experiment to help the discussion of #2 than a serious question. Mikhail XVI can use Chronicle to Place into base contact with a healed model. Can Mikhail be healed himself, and then place into base contact with the area he formerly occupied before being placed, getting around 1" of movement?

This is a No, since Chronicle is for Another model. Thinking of that thought experiment hurts my brain, so i'm not doing it lol

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3 minutes ago, Sweet Tooth said:

This is a No, since Chronicle is for Another model. Thinking of that thought experiment hurts my brain, so i'm not doing it lol

I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't write that. See, it's not even in the OP. I read the rules carefully. I'm a good noodle.

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On the easy part that no longer exists, you can not be placed in base contact with yourself. 

On split, it sounds wrong, but I would need to look more carefully to work out if the model exists to make that choice before the summoning has happened. 

On shadow step, he certainly can't step to anywhere, it needs to be concealing before he is placed there. I am not sure if he could be placed within1" of his original position, because the area loses its concealing nature for a moment. 

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4 hours ago, Whut said:

2) Mr Mordrake has the Born of Shadow Ability and the Shade Step Action. When he uses Shade Step, can he:
a) Be placed anywhere, since wherever he is placed he makes the area within (A)1 of himself Concealing Terrain, satisfying the condition of Shade Step
b) Be placed within 1" of himself, since that area is considered to be Concealing Terrain until he is removed from the table
Essentially, what this is asking is the order of operations between removing the placing model, checking that the condition of the place is met, and putting the placing model back on the table. I believe (A) is remove, place, check while (B) is check, remove, place. There is also the possibility (C) of remove, check, place. I think (A) is correct since I don't know how you would perform the check in (B) or (C) if the model is not in its final position to be able to check conditions.

There are place effects which say things like Leap which say "Place this model anywhere within range".  So Option A is invalid by demonstration--you don't move the reference point when trying to determine where you can move to.

The "can be placed within 1" of himself" seems to be consistent with everything else, and frankly harmless considering the number of Shadow Markers that could be in play for that crew and the resulting amount of Concealing Terrain that could be present.

 

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On 12/11/2020 at 8:13 AM, Adran said:

it needs to be concealing before he is placed there.

Where does this timing come from in the rules? Agree this is the critical part of the question - the point at which you determine if Mordrake has been placed in concealing terrain.

Shade step has no cost to the action nor a target so would go straight to applying results of the action, step 5. Page 23.

As written the timing of the place (picking the model up and putting it down pg 15) and the aura moving with the model (pg 30) all happen simultaneously thereby satisfying the model being placed in concealing terrain.

Functionally this would allow Mordrake to place anywhere within 6” that does not negate Born of shadow upon being placed.

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17 hours ago, Miché said:

Where does this timing come from in the rules? Agree this is the critical part of the question - the point at which you determine if Mordrake has been placed in concealing terrain.

Shade step has no cost to the action nor a target so would go straight to applying results of the action, step 5. Page 23.

As written the timing of the place (picking the model up and putting it down pg 15) and the aura moving with the model (pg 30) all happen simultaneously thereby satisfying the model being placed in concealing terrain.

Functionally this would allow Mordrake to place anywhere within 6” that does not negate Born of shadow upon being placed.

When you get to an absurd conclusion--Mondrake's place effect allows him to be placed anywhere on the table--you're supposed to stop and reconsider your assumptions and see where you went wrong.

 

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2 hours ago, solkan said:

When you get to an absurd conclusion--Mondrake's place effect allows him to be placed anywhere on the table--you're supposed to stop and reconsider your assumptions and see where you went wrong.

 

Anywhere with 6” yes - didn’t intend to say anywhere on table. By itself not an absurd ability. A couple of unsuited 6” place effects on low target numbers already exist.

What is the absurd part? Ideally with a reference to the rules or a game breaking application of the interpretation. Help me see where I went wrong.

I admit there is no helpful language in the rules as to how to resolve non-cost/targeting timing aspects of actions.

To be clear my assumption is that you test for the condition upon placing the model or put another way - upon placing the model it must be in concealing terrain. Which I say is almost always true for Mordrake given born of shadow.

thanks for the reply Solkan.

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The timing of checking requirements is quite an ambiguous area in the Malifaux rules.

However, I think the most reasonable interpretation is you have to place within concealing terrain that is a legal spot before you move.

There isn't an ironclad rules reason for this. A lot of the time in Malifaux you just have to go with being reasonable (which is why we have TOs).

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22 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

There isn't an ironclad rules reason for this. A lot of the time in Malifaux you just have to go with being reasonable (which is why we have TOs).

Agreed on being reasonable. I guess Im trying to seek an explanation that doesn't rely on a variable TO having to give a ruling each time. 

By far the least impactful/powerful form of the ability is to check before, essentially ignore one of the rules on the models card when you resolve the ability - how I intend to play it until its confirmed otherwise but its not a super satisfying answer rules clarity wise.

There are other applications of the same rule here eg. The fall into shadow trigger which has similar wording to shadow step  so its not even an edge case situation. How do I things end up on the FAQs? Is that the only Wyrd based answer to questions?

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31 minutes ago, Miché said:

Agreed on being reasonable. I guess Im trying to seek an explanation that doesn't rely on a variable TO having to give a ruling each time. 

By far the least impactful/powerful form of the ability is to check before, essentially ignore one of the rules on the models card when you resolve the ability - how I intend to play it until its confirmed otherwise but its not a super satisfying answer rules clarity wise.

There are other applications of the same rule here eg. The fall into shadow trigger which has similar wording to shadow step  so its not even an edge case situation. How do I things end up on the FAQs? Is that the only Wyrd based answer to questions?

Well, I guess there's probably at least a pretty solid train of thought that rules out one method.

If it really meant 'measure once you're in place', then 'place a model within 1 inch of itself' would mean anywhere on the table, because it'd be within 1' of itself after the move.

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6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, I guess there's probably at least a pretty solid train of thought that rules out one method.

If it really meant 'measure once you're in place', then 'place a model within 1 inch of itself' would mean anywhere on the table, because it'd be within 1' of itself after the move.

That would be problematic however you cant get to that interpretation because measuring a place effect is clearly covered in the rules pg 15.

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1 minute ago, Miché said:

That would be problematic however you cant get to that interpretation because measuring a place is clearly covered in the rules pg 15.

Oh, that pretty much gives the answer to this one as well. If you have to measure before you move the model, then presumably you have to do everything else at the same stage.

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2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, that pretty much gives the answer to this one as well. If you have to measure before you move the model, then presumably you have to do everything else at the same stage.

I think youve just hit the original assumption again (or presumption 🤔).

All I take from those sentences is how to physically measure and move the model, in response to your 1” could be anywhere on the table comment. 

The only restrictions the place rules refer to is that you must be able to place it on the table somehow and, unhelpfully, that you should follow the text of the effect that generated the place…

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Read Flight, and apply the same argument—a model is always within X” of itself after you place it.  Or for that matter, Glimpse the Void (“unbury within 1” of an enemy model”).

It’s an unwritten bias in the rules, but you have to validate the position you’re going to put the model before you put it there (allowing for itself to not get in its own way, if it’s moving to an overlapping position) before placing the model, not afterwards.

 

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On 6/27/2021 at 9:38 AM, Miché said:

Where does this timing come from in the rules? Agree this is the critical part of the question - the point at which you determine if Mordrake has been placed in concealing terrain.

Shade step has no cost to the action nor a target so would go straight to applying results of the action, step 5. Page 23.

As written the timing of the place (picking the model up and putting it down pg 15) and the aura moving with the model (pg 30) all happen simultaneously thereby satisfying the model being placed in concealing terrain.

Functionally this would allow Mordrake to place anywhere within 6” that does not negate Born of shadow upon being placed.

Sorry, I was away from my rules and my app stopped. 

I would argue that pg 15  says the model must be put down in a specific location as determined by the text of the effect creating the place. This suggests that the specific location must exist before you put the model there. 

My other argument is that why give it shadow step rather than leap if you intended it to be able to go anywhere. 

Neither argument is completely compelling, but the weight of evidence is enough to suggest to me that you need the specific location to exist before you can put the model there. This would mean you could place within 1" of Mr Mordrake always because when you check (as I read it), that point would count as concealing terrain from the aura already. 

On 6/28/2021 at 6:29 AM, Miché said:

Agreed on being reasonable. I guess Im trying to seek an explanation that doesn't rely on a variable TO having to give a ruling each time. 

By far the least impactful/powerful form of the ability is to check before, essentially ignore one of the rules on the models card when you resolve the ability - how I intend to play it until its confirmed otherwise but its not a super satisfying answer rules clarity wise.

There are other applications of the same rule here eg. The fall into shadow trigger which has similar wording to shadow step  so its not even an edge case situation. How do I things end up on the FAQs? Is that the only Wyrd based answer to questions?

Its not really ignoring one of its abilities, and I would still say it is an edge case.

The FAQ is the only official source of Wyrd answers (outside the printed rules). We don't really know what Wyrds criteria for something being added to the FAQs are, but it is rare things get added that haven't at least been discussed in the forums by players (most typically here, but also sometimes in faction forums). 

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