When are you going to nerf Dashel

[trikk]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

Yes but most bases are 30 mm which is only just over 1". The marker has to be visible to the model so larger bases have fewer places to put it " behind" them. ( good model positioning and you can force them to drop a marker you can use even if they are 9" away). 

It's still pretty unreliable (compared to other summoners). Not to mention you have 2 chances to BJ

[Zebo]

13 hours ago, trikk said:

The enemy can place the scheme marker behind them. So add a base size.  I thought the Summons is 6" so it's has to be a little less than 7" for a 30mm

That's why I said completely within 8"

[Scoffer]

TWIMC: a major tournament in Russia (42 players, 5 rounds) was won by a guild player yesterday. Another guild player finished on 3rd place (just 1 point of diff from the 2nd place). Not a single Dashel was hired by them.

Looks like you are trying to nerf the wrong guy.

[trikk]

9 minutes ago, Zebo said:

That's why I said completely within 8"

Sure. Being within 8" of an enemy model, hitting him with Tome, then summoning off him is much more work than an average summoner has to go through.

[Legislat]

@Miltarion is the winner. He mains Lady 90% of the time and she was used in rounds 2-5. The first game was Lucius.

I took Hoff for turns 1 (against Parker),4 (lost to mentioned winner 😅 ), 5 (vs Kirai); and Sonnia rounds 2 (vs Schtook), 3 (vs arcanist Hoff). 

The link to the event is here: https://bag-o-tools.com/live/#/live/1648

Cheers to @Scoffer for yet another amazing event.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Scoffer said:

TWIMC: a major tournament in Russia (42 players, 5 rounds) was won by a guild player yesterday. Another guild player finished on 3rd place (just 1 point of diff from the 2nd place). Not a single Dashel was hired by them.

Looks like you are trying to nerf the wrong guy.

Sshh, we can't let guild players know that they can actually win events. Between this, and Guilds showing in the UK Super league, people might start thinking they are a strong, competitive faction...

[Zebo]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

Sure. Being within 8" of an enemy model, hitting him with Tome, then summoning off him is much more work than an average summoner has to go through.

Agree with you. 

My point is that this isn't bad, this kind of difficulty should be the standard for every summoner in the game. 

Not snap your fingers, cheat a high card and summon a 8-9ss model, as they can do now. Make them look for corpse markers, or some kind of tokens or loops. Make summoners life less easy. 

 

And Dashel is OP

[trikk]

43 minutes ago, Adran said:

Sshh, we can't let guild players know that they can actually win events. Between this, and Guilds showing in the UK Super league, people might start thinking they are a strong, competitive faction...

I think most GU players complain more about the fact that a lot of GU keywords are bad than that the faction is bad. 

I mean the only decent in-keyword crews are Augmented, Frontier and maybe Marshals. The rest either doesn't have synergies or is just bad. Family needs tons of help, Guard is mostly bad (except MG and Execs), Witch Hunters are mostly too squishy to see play. Journalists also have a lot of flaws

8 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Agree with you. 

My point is that this isn't bad, this kind of difficulty should be the standard for every summoner in the game. 

Not snap your fingers, cheat a high card and summon a 8-9ss model, as they can do now. Make them look for corpse markers, or some kind of tokens or loops. Make summoners life less easy. 

 

And Dashel is OP

Sure. I can agree that summoners should be changed. I think that instead of making summoning require going through hoops I'd just make it weaker- increase the TN, block multiple summons etc. 

Everything is OP!

[Legislat]

Yep, totally.

Augmented is best keyword hands down - tons of models with different roles.

Lets count. Master and totem are excluded.

12 models ! lots excellent (Howard, Joss, Medical automaton, Toolkit, Steamfitters, etc) Most decent, few questionable. Excellent crew synergy.

Compare that to guards - 8 models, 2 of them excellent summons and decent hires, everything else is niche/bad. mediocre crew synergy based on Sergeant and Queeg. Pass

Family - 7 models. 1 excellent (Francisco), everything else is overcosted/understatted glass cannons. Very costly and restrictive crew synergy.

Mimic/Elite is alright, but still lacking models. - 7 models. 2 excellent (lawyer, changeling), 2 nice (agent, alan) rest niche/bad. Excellent crew synergy but based on 2-3 models tops.

Journalist - 6 models (really, only 6?). 2 Excellent (Phiona, UReporter), 2 nice (Allison, newsie). Good crew synergy that you can completely live without and hire something else. 

Marshal - 7 models. Mostly alright, but lacking real synergy with themselves and Lady itself. 

Frontier - 9 models. 2 excellent (worm, pathfinder), nice riders and everything else as a filler. They are not that good. They seriously lack in options against some crews. (Jack will wipe the floor with frontier for example). Deploy synergy, thats all.

Witch Hunters - 7 models. 1 excellent SanctionedSC, 1 nice (handlers) and rest are fillers. Thrall Glass rocket almost never works as a hire - too damn squshy for those stones. Stalkers and everything else is meh. Spelleaters are not really that good with the quality of the keyword as it is. Mediocre synergy. Not worth it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 hours ago, Legislat said:

Yep, totally.

Augmented is best keyword hands down - tons of models with different roles.

Lets count. Master and totem are excluded.

12 models ! lots excellent (Howard, Joss, Medical automaton, Toolkit, Steamfitters, etc) Most decent, few questionable. Excellent crew synergy.

Compare that to guards - 8 models, 2 of them excellent summons and decent hires, everything else is niche/bad. mediocre crew synergy based on Sergeant and Queeg. Pass

Family - 7 models. 1 excellent (Francisco), everything else is overcosted/understatted glass cannons. Very costly and restrictive crew synergy.

Mimic/Elite is alright, but still lacking models. - 7 models. 2 excellent (lawyer, changeling), 2 nice (agent, alan) rest niche/bad. Excellent crew synergy but based on 2-3 models tops.

Journalist - 6 models (really, only 6?). 2 Excellent (Phiona, UReporter), 2 nice (Allison, newsie). Good crew synergy that you can completely live without and hire something else. 

Marshal - 7 models. Mostly alright, but lacking real synergy with themselves and Lady itself. 

Frontier - 9 models. 2 excellent (worm, pathfinder), nice riders and everything else as a filler. They are not that good. They seriously lack in options against some crews. (Jack will wipe the floor with frontier for example). Deploy synergy, thats all.

Witch Hunters - 7 models. 1 excellent SanctionedSC, 1 nice (handlers) and rest are fillers. Thrall Glass rocket almost never works as a hire - too damn squshy for those stones. Stalkers and everything else is meh. Spelleaters are not really that good with the quality of the keyword as it is. Mediocre synergy. Not worth it.

One annoying thing about the keyword system is it seems to balance the overall keyword (strong masters tend to have weak keywords). So with Frontier for example, Basse seems incredibly strong to me. Which is a bit offset by a weak keyword.

But then a lot of the time you can just take powerful stuff from OOK and versatiles, which offsets it a bit.

Does put crews with high synergy reliance in a weird spot.

As for Frontier, it definitely seems strange that the crew relies on so much shooting and making concealing terrain, but doesn't ignore the terrain markers or concealing xD

[admiralvorkraft]

To the general conversation at the moment; I played Guild primarily in 2e but I will only play crews with good keyword synergy this time around, so Guild is staying on the shelf.

It's not that it's a bad faction, but the only keywords I can see playing the way I want are Family and Augmented, of the two Family is almost but not quite where I want it to be competitively and Augmented is strictly better in Arcanists.

Every other faction has multiple keywords that work in-theme. I'm not sure why Guild missed the mark in that regard. 

[Yore Huckleberry]

15 hours ago, Scoffer said:

TWIMC: a major tournament in Russia (42 players, 5 rounds) was won by a guild player yesterday. Another guild player finished on 3rd place (just 1 point of diff from the 2nd place). Not a single Dashel was hired by them.

Looks like you are trying to nerf the wrong guy.

Obviously Dashel needs a bump to bring him up to the curve of other Guild masters so he'll see some play!

[Azahul]

Do people really not rate Investigators in Mimic/Elite? They've always felt like the champions of that Keyword to me. Stat 7 attacks. The min 3 damage is easy to set up with the plethora of Staggered both in Keyword and on the Pale Rider. They deny opposing schemes, have card draw that can be set up by Lawyers without even eating into the crew's AP with the right cards, and Stand Back, It's Evidence gives some crazy movement shenanigans that can be set up via that same trigger from the Lawyers. They're the only models in the crew that give a reason for the Lawyer's Court Authority to exist too, so they're always my preferred Obey targets. I start every Lucius crew with two. They're card draw, scheming, anti-schemer beaters, that's basically every role in the game covered bar tank.

[4thstringer]

2 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Do people really not rate Investigators in Mimic/Elite? They've always felt like the champions of that Keyword to me. Stat 7 attacks. The min 3 damage is easy to set up with the plethora of Staggered both in Keyword and on the Pale Rider. They deny opposing schemes, have card draw that can be set up by Lawyers without even eating into the crew's AP with the right cards, and Stand Back, It's Evidence gives some crazy movement shenanigans that can be set up via that same trigger from the Lawyers. They're the only models in the crew that give a reason for the Lawyer's Court Authority to exist too, so they're always my preferred Obey targets. I start every Lucius crew with two. They're card draw, scheming, anti-schemer beaters, that's basically every role in the game covered bar tank.

My lawyers use court authority more with reach other than with investigators.

I've tried to get investigators to work over and over again and have find them consistently disappointing.

[Corwin]

I have used them a couple  of times and thought they were decent but I have trouble fitting them into a list. I'll definitely try them again to see if I can make them shine.

 

[trikk]

5 hours ago, Azahul said:

Do people really not rate Investigators in Mimic/Elite? They've always felt like the champions of that Keyword to me. Stat 7 attacks. The min 3 damage is easy to set up with the plethora of Staggered both in Keyword and on the Pale Rider. They deny opposing schemes, have card draw that can be set up by Lawyers without even eating into the crew's AP with the right cards, and Stand Back, It's Evidence gives some crazy movement shenanigans that can be set up via that same trigger from the Lawyers. They're the only models in the crew that give a reason for the Lawyer's Court Authority to exist too, so they're always my preferred Obey targets. I start every Lucius crew with two. They're card draw, scheming, anti-schemer beaters, that's basically every role in the game covered bar tank.

The 0" engagement really hurts them. I also kind of dislike models that I need setup to work.

[Azahul]

2 minutes ago, trikk said:

The 0" engagement really hurts them. I also kind of dislike models that I need setup to work.

I find the fact that a scheme marker dropped somewhere within 3-4" can push either the Investigator or their target into that 0" melee to make that a relatively marginal issue. Particularly since the crew is full of the Draw Out Secrets trigger, so it's rarely costing AP to resolve that problem.

 

The set-up is fairly marginal too for a crew with so much card draw. Put a Rams into the Pale Rider's shot, or the shot of one of the Mimics, and call it a day. There are ways to disrupt it, but Mimic/Elite has so much staggered that you're probably going to outpace condition removal without ever really trying.

[trikk]

32 minutes ago, Azahul said:

I find the fact that a scheme marker dropped somewhere within 3-4" can push either the Investigator or their target into that 0" melee to make that a relatively marginal issue. Particularly since the crew is full of the Draw Out Secrets trigger, so it's rarely costing AP to resolve that problem.

 

The set-up is fairly marginal too for a crew with so much card draw. Put a Rams into the Pale Rider's shot, or the shot of one of the Mimics, and call it a day. There are ways to disrupt it, but Mimic/Elite has so much staggered that you're probably going to outpace condition removal without ever really trying.

Definitely going to give it a try. After someone won a tournamen with playing Justice 4 times I have to reevaluate everything in life  

 

I was tempted to try them OOK but they are 1 SS to expensive 😕

[DuBlanck]

10 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

My lawyers use court authority more with reach other than with investigators.

I still don't understand how so many people are getting work out of Obeying Lawyers with Lawyers - even with the sculpted hand and TftJ, a 9 is not inconsequential. Should I be committing to drawing more of my deck before reaching the Lawyer phase of the turn?

[Dark Reaper]

It depends. You don't necessarily need to cheat if you don't have to succeed the obey and you can use focus to easier get the 9+. There are definitely a lot of things the Lawyers do that I rank higher than being able to obey each other, even if it can be a nice thing. 

[trikk]

Double shielded + tools is what I bring them for. The obey is just a bonus. As is chatty

[4thstringer]

Adversary from the false witness can also help.  Not an always move, but I've gotten use out of it.

[Dark Reaper]

7 minutes ago, trikk said:

Double shielded + tools is what I bring them for. The obey is just a bonus. As is chatty

Shielded+surge is also really solid.

[trikk]

20 minutes ago, Dark Reaper said:

Shielded+surge is also really solid.

Yes. Depends on the turn, strats and overall context of the game but I like both!

[4thstringer]

5 hours ago, DuBlanck said:

I still don't understand how so many people are getting work out of Obeying Lawyers with Lawyers - even with the sculpted hand and TftJ, a 9 is not inconsequential. Should I be committing to drawing more of my deck before reaching the Lawyer phase of the turn?

It's not an always or even an often thing.  But it's an important option that will occasionally draw you a card.