When are you going to nerf Dashel

[Higgybeans]

4 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

And thats a bad list, which is why you don't see it when good players are taking Dashel.

 

But why is it a bad list? It contains all of the models you say need nerfing but apparently this would be fine? 

42 minutes ago, fire5tone said:

what's wrong with it? i assume your atleast in partial agreement about queeg being bad, but the only thing that particularly strikes me as off here is the lack of rifleman 

My thoughts (in my dream) were to summon riflemen as and where I needed them. Because lower numbers and stuff.

27 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't know the faction very well, but competitive lists for most crews tend to include Phiona and Pale Rider I think?

I wouldn't know, I have played in a single 3e edition tournament just after release, would have been autumn time last year and I only played Phiona once, pale rider once. And I came middle of the pack, 2 wins, 2 losses. (It was a long time ago, but I think it was 4 rounds)

[trikk]

28 minutes ago, Higgybeans said:

My thoughts (in my dream) were to summon riflemen as and where I needed them. Because lower numbers and stuff.

I needs the steward more than the rifleman.

[NoahScape]

"I wouldn't know, I have played in a single 3e edition tournament just after release, would have been autumn time last year and I only played Phiona once, pale rider once. And I came middle of the pack, 2 wins, 2 losses. (It was a long time ago, but I think it was 4 rounds" 

 

Those  models are so strong because they're summoned. If you haven't played any games, how can you speak to their viability in an educated away? 

[NoahScape]

3 hours ago, fire5tone said:

what's wrong with it? i assume your atleast in partial agreement about queeg being bad, but the only thing that particularly strikes me as off here is the lack of rifleman 

The over tuned list in most forms is 

Dashel

Dispatcher

Gage 

Pale Rider

Guild Steward 

Guild Lawyer

2 LLC 

and then you have 13 stones to play around with. Another lawyer, or undercover reporter. Some take the effigy with the upgrade. You summon what you need, typically an executioner which you remove the slow give it fast, draw a card then its a murder machine with 2 inch reach, scatter, execute, crit strike, Pursue which means a strong potential for stat 7, hard to kill.

 

Metal golem swings a giant steal beam and has range 1, Edward Scissorhands has a better reach. Its ok to laugh, its a joke.

 

[Yore Huckleberry]

Another thing to note about the specific game in question is that it was a Corner Deployment game, which gives Dashel the time to set up without being disrupted. And as the OP pointed out, he didn't fare too poorly against Dashel -- it was a 4-3 game with Dashel scoring 2 recover and the reveal of Assassinate and Leave Your Mark, and Yan Lo one recover evidence marker and the reveal point on sabotage and leave your mark. (This is player-reported, so I may have R/E points flipped). This wasn't exactly a stomping.

Dashel Barker

2

Assassinate

1

0

1

Leave Your Mark

1

0

1

4

Yan Lo

1

Sabotage

1

0

1

Leave Your Mark

1

0

1

3

 

In general, Dashel had a pretty poor showing in the Vassal tourney in Fauxvember: (Dashel went 1W/3L/1D), including being piloted by people who podium their local scenes regularly. He's 1W/1L so far in the December tourney -- and this is the win, which as you can see, is by 1 point. Guild overall finished 6th of 7 factions (roughly equally represented, apart from Rezzers, which had twice the player count). If it felt like a challenging game to both players and the score stayed tight, that's good Malifaux, to my mind.

Guild's design problem is actually that we're incredibly predictable because so few of our keywords have the flexibility to move beyond "drag a model out, kill it, scheme later." The two crews that stay largely in keyword are the cross-faction Arcanist and Explorer's crews. We barely take Peacekeepers outside of Hoffman because they're slow and we can't generate the scrap effectively, and we barely take our emissary at all because it only turns into a speed bump once you add a LLC. Everyone walks into a Guild game with a plan for ranged threat, a plan for Phiona, and a plan for the Rider. And if you declare Hoffman your crew predictability goes even higher.

We heard a lot on podcasts last year that Guild power couldn't be brought up because of Agent 46 copying good tools and pairing them with Inhuman Physiology, but that got resolved in the March errata. We also had two totems repaired to different degrees, a rider nerf/redesign, and some small adjustments to other models, but Guild still hasn't been balanced into its keywords to any serious community agreement that I've seen.

[Legislat]

5 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

You summon what you need, typically an executioner which you remove the slow give it fast

 

You cant give him fast in this list. 

 

3 hours ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

Dashel scoring 2 recover and the reveal of Assassinate

It wasnt actually a reveal. Never managed to drop him below 6. It was a lucky execute when he had no cards and stones at the end of the turn.

 

7 hours ago, Higgybeans said:

But why is it a bad list? It contains all of the models you say need nerfing but apparently this would be fine? 

This list has no plan for turn 2 and later. The only thing I see here is a hope for lucky potshots with stat 5 (with discard a card if succesfull), wasted trail of gore and few cards left for actual executioneers attacks. Seems like a reckless gamble. What is the plan if both executioneers will be dead turn 2? Whats the schemes and strats are you planning this list for?

[theamazingmrg]

The strength of Dashel is in the Dispatcher and his card draw.  Find a way to Lure away his protector (or better yet, off it) and the Dispatcher disintegrates.  Then you have a crew of mostly slow, mediocre models you can deal with at your leisure.

 

The Lawyer is the true MVP in Guild.  Pale Rider is pretty great, but since the nerf he's also a little expensive.  The Lawyer gives out Shields (probably with card draw or a second Shield), allows reuse of good cards, and can Obey whet he needs depending on the circumstances.  You want to fix Dashel, give him a reason to not take the Lawyer.

[Adran]

7 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

The over tuned list in most forms is 

Dashel

Dispatcher

Gage 

Pale Rider

Guild Steward 

Guild Lawyer

2 LLC 

and then you have 13 stones to play around with. Another lawyer, or undercover reporter. Some take the effigy with the upgrade. You summon what you need, typically an executioner which you remove the slow give it fast, draw a card then its a murder machine with 2 inch reach, scatter, execute, crit strike, Pursue which means a strong potential for stat 7, hard to kill.

 

This does make me question your initial claim that executioners are over tuned, if you're not hiring them. 

Them being too good a summons is more likely a problem with the summoning action, so unless you want to restrict them purely to a summons then weakening them seems like the wrong answer unless you can target something that only really fits their summon role. 

[Plaag]

6 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

The strength of Dashel is in the Dispatcher and his card draw.  Find a way to Lure away his protector (or better yet, off it) and the Dispatcher disintegrates.  Then you have a crew of mostly slow, mediocre models you can deal with at your leisure.

 

The Lawyer is the true MVP in Guild.  Pale Rider is pretty great, but since the nerf he's also a little expensive.  The Lawyer gives out Shields (probably with card draw or a second Shield), allows reuse of good cards, and can Obey whet he needs depending on the circumstances.  You want to fix Dashel, give him a reason to not take the Lawyer.

yes, try to find a way with llc and standing 2" away from dispatcher, so blast wont hurt him

[Higgybeans]

9 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Those  models are so strong because they're summoned. If you haven't played any games, how can you speak to their viability in an educated away? 

I never said I didn't play games. I've played a lot, just not in tournaments. Besides, you are only here moaning about them rather than giving any reasons for all your points.

3 hours ago, Legislat said:

This list has no plan for turn 2 and later. The only thing I see here is a hope for lucky potshots with stat 5 (with discard a card if succesfull), wasted trail of gore and few cards left for actual executioneers attacks. Seems like a reckless gamble. What is the plan if both executioneers will be dead turn 2? Whats the schemes and strats are you planning this list for?

This is helpful, because you are giving points for why it's bad. As I said, it was a dream I had (I know I'm a nerd) and was just putting it out there to see opinions.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

This does make me question your initial claim that executioners are over tuned, if you're not hiring them. 

Them being too good a summons is more likely a problem with the summoning action, so unless you want to restrict them purely to a summons then weakening them seems like the wrong answer unless you can target something that only really fits their summon role. 

This exactly. If a model is too good, why aren't more people running it. Sure summoning is good, but you can only bring in 1 a turn. And what if you need more? What if you need to fill a different role better?

And if you have models like Phiona/Pale Rider, why do you need executioners?

 

I'm not saying this to cause arguments, I just want to understand WHY you think it needs fixing.

[Azahul]

On 12/6/2020 at 9:48 PM, Legislat said:

The same goes for Perditas crew - everything in keyword is crap except Francisco. Just compare the stats to some other crews, its not even funny. Just imagine her keyword crew against new faction - the odds are not in your favor at all.

A little off-topic here, but I'm curious on this point. What stats in Perdita's crew are low relative to other crews in the game? I've played against her a few times and she has actually felt like she's consistently on the higher end of, well, the entire game, since her crew's stats are primarily 6s and 7s with a +1 on their A Por El attacks. They're mostly Defence 5, but that doesn't leap out at me as all that exceptional one way or the other.

[4thstringer]

OP loses to guild by one after emptying his hand and against executes repeatedly, and all the sudden the opposing crew needs nerfing. 

Is this some kind of performance art? Or is it just inconceivable to you that guild should actually be able to win a game?

[Legislat]

5 hours ago, Azahul said:

A little off-topic here, but I'm curious on this point. What stats in Perdita's crew are low relative to other crews in the game? I've played against her a few times and she has actually felt like she's consistently on the higher end of, well, the entire game, since her crew's stats are primarily 6s and 7s with a +1 on their A Por El attacks. They're mostly Defence 5, but that doesn't leap out at me as all that exceptional one way or the other.

You are kidding right? Look at Nino, Papa, MH, Pistoleros. Or are you implying a very position specific mechanic of the crew requiring a card discard and also requiring to hire a very subpur model just to offset the crappy stats on attacks only and only not on its own activation is quite alright? Yep, Santiago can be quite scary if he somehow manages to catch the opponent in the open field without concealment and cover (oh yes, very likely) and if he is not already dead by that point. 

Usually low stats are compensated by something like a decent protection mechanic or unique tricks. Those models "unique" tricks are maybe draw a card/take a concentrate if you are lucky (if you are positioned right, have a needed suit and managed to hit) or discard a card to let somebody else try to be lucky. This type of game is not well suited for competitiveness. The usuall result is an empty hand and a hope youll be lucky.

Nino is the least capable sniper in the entire game. Papa is a liability more often then he is usefull. The crew cant deal enough damage on tables with normal ammount of terrain - you need several activations with Papa to setup blow appart at the very least or go full zerg(lol).

Look at enforcers in other factions in the 6-8 bracket. Youll see the difference.

[theamazingmrg]

On 12/7/2020 at 9:42 AM, Plaag said:

yes, try to find a way with llc and standing 2" away from dispatcher, so blast wont hurt him

The trick was in the phrase "find a way."  Certain tactics aren't going to work in certain setups.  If you can't Lure, then Obey (if you can somehow drop a marker to interfere with LoS to block the Aura).  If one blast isn't enough, then try to double blast.  Try to set up a way of killing the protector then activating a Companion to instantly murder the Dispatcher.  This is Malifaux.  The Dispatcher is just another problem to be solved.  Or we can just bitch about how broken a 4 health model is.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, theamazingmrg said:

The trick was in the phrase "find a way."  Certain tactics aren't going to work in certain setups.  If you can't Lure, then Obey (if you can somehow drop a marker to interfere with LoS to block the Aura).  If one blast isn't enough, then try to double blast.  Try to set up a way of killing the protector then activating a Companion to instantly murder the Dispatcher.  This is Malifaux.  The Dispatcher is just another problem to be solved.  Or we can just bitch about how broken a 4 health model is.

dont u think that it will be waste of tonns of resourses just to kill totem?

[Adran]

On 12/7/2020 at 9:42 AM, Plaag said:

yes, try to find a way with llc and standing 2" away from dispatcher, so blast wont hurt him

How many ways do I need to find? 

 can hurt the dispatcher. Breath of Fire (on multiple models in multiple factions) can do it in 1 hit (although the last point is done by burning so it is end of turn)

There are at least 1 model that does  on severe with a moderate 4 (Mad dog with his trigger)

Ricchochet works. 

I think every faction out there has the tools to 1 activation kill the dispatcher whilst getting round its protected and serene countenance. 

You might not normally hire those tools. You might even think that they are normally on a bad model, but you need to then decide if they are bad enough that even though they offer you an answer to the issue they still aren't worth it. 

Lead lined coat does help protect the dispatcher from most common solutions that are 1 damage hits, and most movements but then its going to start mattering what each player picks and what the table has for the best way to deal with it, and then its how much you feel you need to warp your crew to deal with it. (I know the World series faqs feel obey won't let you move a laugh off, but I think that's not supported by the rules and you can obey a laugh off model to walk away)

[theamazingmrg]

1 hour ago, Plaag said:

dont u think that it will be waste of tonns of resourses just to kill totem?

Not when the totem is the key to the other sides success.  If I can murder the totem early enough, Dashel is neutered for the rest of the game.  The resources spent would be worth it.

[theamazingmrg]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Lead lined coat does help protect the dispatcher from most common solutions that are 1 damage hits

I think he was meaning LLC on the Protector, rather than the Dispatcher (which makes it much harder to move the Protector out of the way), but that still doesn't mean the problem is unsurmountable.  It just requires creative thinking of how to build your list and approach the problem, rather than a blanket "Well I'm not taking model X because its 'bad'.  What do you mean I now can't deal with the problem models?"

[Adran]

Just now, theamazingmrg said:

I think he was meaning LLC on the Protector, rather than the Dispatcher (which makes it much harder to move the Protector out of the way), but that still doesn't mean the problem is unsurmountable.  It just requires creative thinking of how to build your list and approach the problem, rather than a blanket "Well I'm not taking model X because its 'bad'.  What do you mean I now can't deal with the problem models?"

I thought that at first, but the Dispatcher already stops you moving the protector if it is a guard minion (until you disrupt LOS). 

Don't get me wrong, there is a good set of defensives tricks on the dispatcher, and its not trivial to kill it if the Guard player doesn't want you to, but everything comes at a cost. Making a list that is guaranteed to kill the dispatcher is useless if you can't score any points, but likewise keeping the dispatcher alive doesn't earn you points by itself. 

[LeperColony]

Serene Countenance and Protected also only work against enemy attack actions.  If you obey a friendly model to attack him, they won't apply.  Neither are effective against things like Hazardous terrain, abilities, shockwaves or tactical actions.  There are answers in the game.

Dashel is a good master, and a lot of that is the Dispatcher.  But I think much of Dashel's strength comes from the somewhat overtuned nature of summoning generally.  I don't believe that any change to him, outside of a general change to summoning, would be either necessary or even appropriate.

The OPs reaction is a common one to seeing something for the first time that just "feels off."  There's a lot of that in Malifaux.  And sure, some of it is genuinely overpowered.  Some of it is situationally overpowered.  But most times, there exists within the framework of the game models or tactics to respond.  

[Plaag]

7 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

I think he was meaning LLC on the Protector, rather than the Dispatcher (which makes it much harder to move the Protector out of the way), but that still doesn't mean the problem is unsurmountable.  It just requires creative thinking of how to build your list and approach the problem, rather than a blanket "Well I'm not taking model X because its 'bad'.  What do you mean I now can't deal with the problem models?"

so, maybe u can say that the key to win dreamer is to kill him and his band until 3 turn? or just flip better cards than dreamer?

[Adran]

51 minutes ago, Plaag said:

so, maybe u can say that the key to win dreamer is to kill him and his band until 3 turn? or just flip better cards than dreamer?

Well killing the dreamer in the first 3 turns is not a bad shout as one way to beat him. 

 

[Antipodean]

IMHO….

Summoners are still king in M3E generally speaking, especially with GG1. From memory GG0 had two generally summoner unfriendly strats (reckoning, turf war), while GG1 only has the one (public enemies). Not as bad as M2E where they were not only significantly better, but more unevenly distributed across factions.

The extra AP/AP denial/stones/wounds/damage output that escalates through the game makes summoners really hard to play against. The choice of what to summon after seeing what the opponents full crew is provides flexibility that is hard to achieve in a non summoner crew.

My typical starting core is Dashel, Dispatcher, Steward, 1 Mounted Guard, 1 Executioner, 2 Wardens. Often add 1 Rifleman unless the board is a nightmare. Following that, various tech picks. The flexibility of the summoner is hard to beat, first round usually nabbing and extra Mounted Guard or Executioner depending on mission, cards and opponent.

I think Dashel is one of the best Guild masters, post errata this year. Its more than the other masters need a buff than he needs a nerf. Why do I think that? Because cross faction comparisons (always a tricky area…) means if I wasn’t declaring Guild I’d be more open to picking various masters than in Guild where as of late I always seem to be reaching for Dashel across various strats and schemes. I’m certainly not unbeatable even when I do though.

[Azahul]

16 hours ago, Legislat said:

You are kidding right? Look at Nino, Papa, MH, Pistoleros. Or are you implying a very position specific mechanic of the crew requiring a card discard and also requiring to hire a very subpur model just to offset the crappy stats on attacks only and only not on its own activation is quite alright? Yep, Santiago can be quite scary if he somehow manages to catch the opponent in the open field without concealment and cover (oh yes, very likely) and if he is not already dead by that point. 

Usually low stats are compensated by something like a decent protection mechanic or unique tricks. Those models "unique" tricks are maybe draw a card/take a concentrate if you are lucky (if you are positioned right, have a needed suit and managed to hit) or discard a card to let somebody else try to be lucky. This type of game is not well suited for competitiveness. The usuall result is an empty hand and a hope youll be lucky.

Nino is the least capable sniper in the entire game. Papa is a liability more often then he is usefull. The crew cant deal enough damage on tables with normal ammount of terrain - you need several activations with Papa to setup blow appart at the very least or go full zerg(lol).

Look at enforcers in other factions in the 6-8 bracket. Youll see the difference.

I'm genuinely confused as to what Enforcers I'm meant to be looking at. First, I didn't suggest taking Abuela to compensate for low stats, I was saying that the stats are good even before she gets involved. Francisco is a 7, so already top tier. Nino is 5 with a built in positive and ignores cover and concealment. Five with a positive is a hugely useful tool, I play a lot of Parker Barrows and I generally think it's more useful than a straight six thanks to the ability to ignore a lot of defensive rules with it (setting aside the fact that Nino already ignores several of those rules). If you're looking for models with rules and gimmicks to offset their low stats, Nino definitely meets that metric. Most of the crew in my experience A Por Els to Nino when they can thanks to the built in Family Values often giving the card back. Santiago is a Stat 6, which is not low for his bracket. What else should he be, a 7?

 

I'll admit, I'm not enormously impressed with Papa Loco or the Minions, but mostly I was just wondering which stats exactly are considered low. I guess I just value five with a positive unusually highly?

[Maniacal_cackle]

24 minutes ago, Antipodean said:

IMHO….

Summoners are still king in M3E generally speaking, especially with GG1. From memory GG0 had two generally summoner unfriendly strats (reckoning, turf war), while GG1 only has the one (public enemies).

I think this is a big part of it.

Even Plant Explosives I loved against summoners. Since summoners are so slow to get rolling, I could happily deploy three bombs turn one and then spend the rest of the game slowing down the enemy.

Idols was a bit iffy against summoners as it was their best strategy. But even then, you can often win initiative against summoners, so it was a lot harder on them.

In GG1... Recover evidence feels soooo much better with a summoner (particularly with a double master setup). Symbols and leylines similarly benefit from a slow roll summoning strategy.

To me, the key issue with GG1 strats is you can't "preload" them (dropping lots of bombs, claiming lots of turf, etc).

Since you have to do the mechanic once every turn, you can't just use superior mobility to get an advantage early. Instead, the strong board presence of summoners really favours the "do the strategy every turn of the game" twist of current strategies.

So I hope that we see a swing back to preload strats, personally.