My attempt at fixing Redchapel by redesigning Sybelle.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Right, now that I am a mediocre Seamus player, I feel like I want to give a few thoughts on reworking Redchapel.  Here's my design philosophy I'm inferring for fixing keywords post beta:

1. Where possible, change as few models as possible.
2. A good way to make changes for one model change an entire keyword is resource generation (see Reva and Dispatcher).
3. Changes should be flavourful and/or on theme.

So I'm going to attempt to do that with Sybelle. Note that I'm just guessing at her flavour.

Front of card:

• Remove Bump in the Night
• Add new ability: Superior Temptress
• Add new ability: Mistress of the House
• Reduce cost to 9 stones.

Superior Temptress: Increase the range of this model's Scarlet Temptation ability by 1".

The mismatch between her engagement range and her aura is a mechanical failure. Tying it into her being the leader of the sex workers (and a dominatrix to boot) by giving her the strongest incarnation of the ability is a flavour win. Mechanically keeping the Scarlet Temptation ability and modifying it ensures the auras still don't stack.

Mistress of the House: whenever another friendly non-master Redchapel model starts its activation within aura6", it adds a mask to its duels for its next attack this activation.

Mechanically, this makes the distract engine of the crew viable (and also enables Bete Noire and Mourners to get their mask triggers which are core to their kit). I first wanted to do masks to all duels, but then imagine a Belle handing out triple distract... So yeah, that'd be too much...

I also designed it so that a model just has to start near Sybelle, so then the model can walk, attack. Too tight a bubble really hurts the crew.

Flavour wise, Sybelle is head of the brothel and she coaches the girls in the art of seduction (and gives the suit for distract trigger). And in general, she looks after them and makes sure they have what they need (mask triggers). The buff doesn't apply to herself or Seamus because she doesn't look after them. It does apply to the totem, but he gets nothing out of it, so is probably okay flavour wise.

This also fits the 'resource generator' style buff that has worked for other crews (masks are a precious resource for Redchapel, and this generates masks without card draw or giving other suits).

Back of the card:

Whip attack - change damage track to 2/3/5 with built in critical strike.

Sybelle knows how to hit to cause pain by default so a built in crit strike makes sense, but also ensures if she is using her other triggers it weakens her a bit. And her severes should be very impactful (she knows how to do some damage), so a 5 severe (7 with double crit strike) seems good.

EDIT: could also make the whip a WP attack. Could make thematic sense for Sybelle being more about attacking the will than the body. But it would possibly be too strong. But that said, can always decrease the damage some more. Redchapel does need a good willpower attack!

Bonus actions - undivided attention feels like it could be something more useful... Any ideas? Nothing too useful though - don't want to make her overpowered and the aura above already seems like a strong addition.

Right, so that's my first draft of a redesign. What do people think?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Possible bonus action - bend to my will - obey effect if they have three or more distracted?

EDIT: another option:

Degrade: WP attack, target takes damage equal to its distracted condition (to a maximum of three).

EDIT: and another:

Love potion/throw some perfume: Shockwave, willpower duel or non Redchapel models get distracted (+2?).

Would be nice if she had a willpower attack to benefit from all the scarlet temptations.

[unti]

What about something like:

Hold them right: the push distance from the disengage action is reduced by 2"

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 minutes ago, unti said:

What about something like:

Hold them right: the push distance from the disengage action is reduced by 2"

I do like bubbles that hold people in and make it difficult to escape. Would need a solid source of damage in the crew to abuse it, but an interesting alternative to Montresor's mechanic!

[nomoredroids]

If you want to fix Red Chapel you need to start with Lure not being affected by Concealing. Sybelle obviously needs work, too. I like the ideas but I'm not sure fixing Sybelle is going to make the keyword work. 

[Mr. Crows]

On 12/1/2020 at 6:42 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Love potion/throw some perfume: Shockwave, willpower duel or non Redchapel models get distracted (+2?).

I like this one the most. I agree the Distracted function is broken in the keyword mechanic.

[Alcathous]

On 12/1/2020 at 3:02 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Whip attack - change damage track to 2/3/5 with built in critical strike.

Flavor-wise, whips are all X/Y/Y damage tracks as far as I know. Any way you get what you want without breaking that convention?

EDIT: I like the other ideas you mention, and I really appreciate that your redesign idea accentuates the existing aspects of the Redchapel keyword focused around control and doesn't make her Archie2.0.

[Maniacal_cackle]

13 minutes ago, Alcathous said:

Flavor-wise, whips are all X/Y/Y damage tracks as far as I know. Any way you get what you want without breaking that convention?

EDIT: I like the other ideas you mention, and I really appreciate that your redesign idea accentuates the existing aspects of the Redchapel keyword focused around control and doesn't make her Archie2.0.

McCabes bull whip is 2/3/4, so there is precedent.

On 12/3/2020 at 3:27 AM, nomoredroids said:

If you want to fix Red Chapel you need to start with Lure not being affected by Concealing. Sybelle obviously needs work, too. I like the ideas but I'm not sure fixing Sybelle is going to make the keyword work. 

I haven't run into this much, but good point. Maybe they could gain a positive flip or mask?

[NoahScape]

Sybelle needs the temp to be 2 inches and 9 stones seems like a good amount for her. 10 is just way too much and she doesn't do enough to earn that rep. 

I agree bump in the night doesn't do it for me, I'd like to see something different, friendly models adding a mask to duel totals within 6 or 4 inches depending on testing to see how busted it is. I'm guessing not too busted considering it can be focused, assisted, or condition removal away. The crew doesn't have a consistent way of handing out distracted, and its important to the crew as a whole, even if its just their first attack that gets the built in mask. 

I'd like for her to have a summon mechanic where she summons belles. Not sure how it would work, maybe if she kills a model she summons a belle, which would probably require some damage reduction, or she summons off a corpse marker. Belles aren't world breaking, but it they're okay road blocks, and it seems to be in theme. I've always thought she should be able to summon belles, but I guess i'm the only one who thinks this. 

 

Belles need some attention as well. I would like to see a zero action, like a 3/4 inch WP duel pulse that hands out distracted or something. 

ooh la la - Enemy models within 3 inchs must make a WP 12 duel or gain distracted plus 1.  I thought about adding a move or push all enemy models within 3 toward this model then gain distracted plus 1 but that might be too strong with Pounce, but I really don't know. 

Doxys are in a good place. Pretty balanced, just inconsistent with the distracted like the rest of the crew. 

Dandies seem good, but when I'm building a list I just don't take them. 

Bete most of the time can't find a place in the crew if I try to take Sybelle and the Emissary is almost too good to not take with Seamus, who is really map dependent. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I love the idea of Sybelle summoning, but not if she is spammed OOk like toshiro.

Give her a summon a Belle in base contact with a model (or enemy?) With 2 or more distracted. Very flavourful as well.

[unti]

I like the summoning idea, eventhough I don't think wyrd wants to add another summoning henchman. What about:

It was two of them?: Target takes a WP 12 + x duel where X is the amount of redchapel model engaging the target. When the target fails it gains distracted and a belle is summoned in base contact.

In a non redchapel crew it should be easy to defend but near belles or doxys with the minus to wp pretty good chance of succeding

[Maniacal_cackle]

15 minutes ago, unti said:

I like the summoning idea, eventhough I don't think wyrd wants to add another summoning henchman. What about:

It was two of them?: Target takes a WP 12 + x duel where X is the amount of redchapel model engaging the target. When the target fails it gains distracted and a belle is summoned in base contact.

In a non redchapel crew it should be easy to defend but near belles or doxys with the minus to wp pretty good chance of succeding

This is a cool idea.

Personally I feel like Ressers should be THE summoning faction because they raise the dead.  As long as henchmen summoning is stuck to keyword usage, it is fine to have a few more.

[NoahScape]

4 hours ago, unti said:

I like the summoning idea, eventhough I don't think wyrd wants to add another summoning henchman. What about:

It was two of them?: Target takes a WP 12 + x duel where X is the amount of redchapel model engaging the target. When the target fails it gains distracted and a belle is summoned in base contact.

In a non redchapel crew it should be easy to defend but near belles or doxys with the minus to wp pretty good chance of succeding

This feels a little too swingy to me, but I like the concept. I can just see a model flipping a 9 and a 10 to pass and it would just feel bad. Its better than nothing, I just don't want Sybelle to suck because she can summon a belle. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, IronmanKC81 said:

This feels a little too swingy to me, but I like the concept. I can just see a model flipping a 9 and a 10 to pass and it would just feel bad. Its better than nothing, I just don't want Sybelle to suck because she can summon a belle. 

If you have something like:

WP duel - if this is the first time this ability has succeeded this turn, summon a Belle.

That way you can try twice, and if you use scarlet temptation the odds of failing twice are extremely low.

[Maniacal_cackle]

That said, for the summon I kind of like just a WP attack that can only target someone with distracted (coupled with mask aura).

That way you can cheat the duel and they cant if you have scarlet temptation up. Would also make mourners a bit better (with free masks, they would be the best models at applying scarlet temptation after Bete).

Definitely want Scarlet Temptation to be relevant to the crew xD

[KingJocko]

I definitely agree with the sentiment that Redchapel as a keyword feels weak and that Sybelle is the obvious avenue to not only bring her up, but to bring the rest of the keyword up as well. It's also likely the move Wyrd will take since past erratas typically focus on fixing the weakest link in a chain rather than the chain as a whole. I don't have a lot of experience with the keyword, but I like a lot of these suggestions so I figured I'd take a crack at combining it into what I think would be a functional rework for her (additions and changes in red).

Df 5 / Wp 5 / Mv 5 / Sz 2 / Cost 10 / Health 12
Terrifying (11)
Hard to Wound
Bump In The Night
Scarlet Temptation
Cathouse Mistress: Friendly Models within 4 increase the range of their Scarlet Temptation to 2.

Attack Actions
Bleeder Lash / Rg 2" / Stat 6 / Rst Df
Target suffers 3/3/4 and must either discard a card or gain Distracted +1.
 Critical Strike
 Sweeping Strike
Pulled Here and There
 Maim (Removed)
 Simping Ain't Easy / A New John / Dom of the Dead: Once per Turn. After killing an Enemy model with Distracted +2 or more, summon a Dead Dandy into base contact with the target, then the summoned model suffers 2 Irreducible damage.

Beckoning Call (Removed)

Potent Perfume 8" / Stat 7 / Rst * / TN 12
Shockwave 1, Wp 12, Distracted +1.
Redchapel models may ignore the effects of this Shockwave.
Alluring Aroma: Push models that fail this duel up to 3" in any direction.
Pungent Remnants: When resolving, drop a Corpse Marker in base contact with a Shockwave Marker generated by this action before removing them.

Tactical Actions

 Undivided Attention / 6" / Stat 6 / - / TN 12
Until the End Phase, enemy models within range that start their Activation engaged or within a Scarlet Temptation aura reduce their duel totals by 1 until the end of their Activation.
 Bolster Strength

 I've Got Your Back

Reasons for changes

Cathouse Mistress - Like everyone else I feel the fact that Scarlet Temptation's range isn't based on the models engagement range was a mistake, but as previously mentioned I don't foresee the ability itself being reworked so an additional modifying ability seems like the next best thing. Keeping the modifying aura relatively short works towards making Sybelle a death bubble, which Bump in the Night and Undivided Attention were already doing so it's unlikely to make her any more threatening. However it gives the other ladies in Redchapel some more options.

Bleeder Lash - Removing the +flip at half health is a pretty major drawback, but after looking through some of the other whips its seems that's not so much a standard feature of them anymore. Using the Skullsaw for inspiration, I thought it would be more synergistic with other models and herself if she can dole out some more Distracted without using triggers. It's overall a bit of a weaker version, but it was to justify the built in Crow.

Simping Ain't Easy / A New John / Dom of the Dead - Mentioning her being able to summon seemed like a 2 birds with one stone solution. Summoning helps justify her cost while making the summoned model the Dead Dandies gives them more opportunities to show up on the table. The changes to Scarlet Temptation increases the potency of most other Redchapel models and making them summonable would compound Sybelle's effectiveness to an extreme degree and likely make her broken. Because the Dandies don't benefit from these changes it stops things from going out of control if they were summoned. Coming in with 3 health may seem like a death sentence for them, but I think Disguised and Manipulative will cost the enemy more resources than it's worth to take them out immediately.

Potent Perfume - Getting rid of Beckoning Call was a tough call, but there would be no room left on her card without something getting dropped. Instead it's repurposed into Potent Perfume with the Alluring Aroma trigger. Not as strong of a single push, but being able to affect multiple models who could all be on a -flip from the increased range of Scarlet Temptation seems like a fair trade off. Another trade off was losing the 12" range for a Projectile 8", so I upped the stat to 7. Meanwhile the Pungent Remnants trigger offers up some ranged corpse creation for Seamus and Bete Noire to take advantage of.

Undivided Attention - This change increases the value of Scarlet Temptation with the range increase for ST more models will likely be affected. I originally thought to remove the "engaged" criteria, but realized this would harm Dandies, Seamus, CCK, and OOK choices, and would also make Sybelle less valuable outside of Redchapel.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Interesting design, @KingJocko! One thing I worry about is 'summon on kill' tends to be pretty weak. For example, Datsue Ba can summon Onryo on kill, but it is a rather minor part of her kit compared to all the other awesome stuff she does. Similarly Kirai can summon Gaki on kill, but it isn't that relevant. Rather it is a nice icing on the cake for an already strong model. Throw in the requirement that the model has to have distracted 2, and I wouldn't be surprised if most games the ability didn't even go off (especially since Seamus will be eating all the severes/high cards).

I do like the idea of making Dandies more relevant, although flavour wise I don't like summoning them (they're the customers). So maybe something like:

Bring out the Belles

TN 15 - Target a Dead Dandy within range. Summon a Rotten Belle in base contact with the target, and the target gains distracted +1.

A bit more of a straightforward summoning process, but now open to counterplay (all the opponent has to do is kill your squishy Dandy, and the summoning switches off). Also has an interesting effect in mirror matches, where the Sybelles are vying for customers xD

EDIT: Oh, also, I think a redesign should nerf a few things about Sybelle as well. Currently part of her 'cost' is a lot of abilities that aren't really worth it (her bonus, the aura, etc).

[NoahScape]

On 12/6/2020 at 1:00 AM, unti said:

I like the summoning idea, eventhough I don't think wyrd wants to add another summoning henchman. What about:

It was two of them?: Target takes a WP 12 + x duel where X is the amount of redchapel model engaging the target. When the target fails it gains distracted and a belle is summoned in base contact.

In a non redchapel crew it should be easy to defend but near belles or doxys with the minus to wp pretty good chance of succeding

I think Sybelle's whip should have a built in mask for the pull here or there. 

Also, is it me or should she have WP 6? Just feels like she should have a better WP. I still think she should be at 9 stones. 

I'm starting to think of issues with bete as well. Stuns and ignoring resist attacks just walk right through her. I haven't had an issue yet while using her, but every time I see something that stuns my butt eats my shorts. 

 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

I think Sybelle's whip should have a built in mask for the pull here or there. 

Also, is it me or should she have WP 6? Just feels like she should have a better WP. I still think she should be at 9 stones. 

I'm starting to think of issues with bete as well. Stuns and ignoring resist attacks just walk right through her. I haven't had an issue yet while using her, but every time I see something that stuns my butt eats my shorts. 

 

 

Which abilities are you concerned about with Bete? Almost all sources of stunned come on a df/WP duel, so you declare the trigger before the stun is applied and bury (and then stunned wears off on her activation).

So stun doesn't really worry me. And it is good she has some counterplay. Although I'm sad that on Recover Evidence she becomes a bit useless.

For Bete, the one thing I want to see is that she ignores the once per activation limit on charge (Frenzied Charge). Her unbury is too clunky as is.

[NoahScape]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Which abilities are you concerned about with Bete? Almost all sources of stunned come on a df/WP duel, so you declare the trigger before the stun is applied and bury (and then stunned wears off on her activation).

So stun doesn't really worry me. And it is good she has some counterplay. Although I'm sad that on Recover Evidence she becomes a bit useless.

For Bete, the one thing I want to see is that she ignores the once per activation limit on charge (Frenzied Charge). Her unbury is too clunky as is.

I didn’t think about that, good point. I just started playing Bete again and trying seamus without the emissary so it hadn’t come up yet for me. 

[unti]

I really don't like that the emissary is fixed 10 points in every list I play with Seamus, so if you find a way to implement sybelle and bete instead let me know. 

I don't think that the emissary is too strong but his kit with the blocking wall + corpse is just a perfect fit... An viable option to play something different would be awesome...

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

I didn’t think about that, good point. I just started playing Bete again and trying seamus without the emissary so it hadn’t come up yet for me. 

If you play Reva, try Bete in that crew. Her power is really obvious there.

In Seamus it takes a bit more work and is more reliant on the Emissary/corpse generation. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 hours ago, unti said:

I really don't like that the emissary is fixed 10 points in every list I play with Seamus, so if you find a way to implement sybelle and bete instead let me know. 

I don't think that the emissary is too strong but his kit with the blocking wall + corpse is just a perfect fit... An viable option to play something different would be awesome...

Although one thought is I wouldn't mind this if I could get my hands on the Seamus Avatar. It is the reason I originally bought the crew xD

[unti]

I only play the emissary with my Seamus or Nikodem avatar 😃 , great models!!

Does anyone know if or when we will get new GG or/and Errata? I mean we just got ES so maybe it will take some time, in this special year...

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, unti said:

I only play the emissary with my Seamus or Nikodem avatar 😃 , great models!!

Does anyone know if or when we will get new GG or/and Errata? I mean we just got ES so maybe it will take some time, in this special year...

Yeah, I imagine it will take a little while.