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Hamlin is busted, seriously...


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4 minutes ago, Plaag said:

it means that u make 6 dmg without dmg flip and vretch will do it and u cannt cheat it; blight tokens dont go away; and its better to make third atack with stuff and make target gain another token and make it stats becomes 0; and it is usefull to spend ss for crows for lure trigger; also u will put servant on hamelin and emissary would push him, so u will have all 3 actions

Bleeding Disease can do 6 dmg without damage flip, while a typical beater with 3/4/5 damage spread can do 9~15 damage with damage flip in 3 actions.

Blight Tokens do not go away, but the Injured can be removed after Hamelin activation.

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This is a classic example of everything being assessed from the perspective of the hamelin player playing perfectly and the opponent being a numpty. Its incredibly resource intensive to have happen th

Didn't many of the token-using models in this edition get converted from using conditions in second edition precisely so that their mechanics could not be turned off by condition removal? Adding token

Several masters in the game do feel like unbeatable in the first 10 games before you have learnt how to play against them. The best way to learn them, rather than just reading cards, is to playing the

21 minutes ago, Plaag said:

what crews would make a lot of dmg while hamelin use his lure?)

The exact answer will depend on exactly what you want to achieve.

If the aim is to kill the model, then Parker will probably be able to do 6-10 damage for the same amount of resource I used in my example. (so you need to get 2 bleeding diseases off to get close to a comparable output)

If the aim is to get the model to a certain position before killing it, then its a lot fewer, but I would look at crews that create Hazardous terrain/auras to get a similar amount of damage/movement.

Hannah can push a model 6" whilst hitting it for 9 damage, and setting up 3+ different hazardous areas to move the model through resulting in at least extra 9 damage if you really want. 

15 minutes ago, Plaag said:

it means that u make 6 dmg without dmg flip and vretch will do it and u cannt cheat it; blight tokens dont go away; and its better to make third atack with stuff and make target gain another token and make it stats becomes 0; and it is usefull to spend ss for crows for lure trigger; also u will put servant on hamelin and emissary would push him, so u will have all 3 actions

Yes, this gets 6 damage caused by an attack flip that they can't cheat. Its after 3 other flips that they could cheat. 

I know Blight doesn't go away, and as the game goes on, models will accumulate more and more blight, making the bleeding disease more likely to kill a model as the game goes on. BUT that is generally true of all attacks. In general models health will go down as the game goes on, making any attack more likely to kill a model as the game goes on if you have a crew that does damage to the opponent rather than a crew that give an opponent blight. 

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1 hour ago, Azahul said:

It's also worth noting that the two models consistently cited as being the best for stacking Blight fast (and I agree with that assessment) are Nix and Hamelin. I.e. two of the three models with Bleeding Disease. They can put out a lot of Blight pretty quickly, but that's devaluing the supposed strength of being able to nuke the target with all these crazy high damage attacks. A single Bleeding Disease doing 9 damage is amazing (and the highest I have personally ever achieved), until you average it out as the result of a Master and an 8 stone Henchman's activations (ok, 13 damage including the two weak damage results from Nix's bites) 😅 Of course, you'd think that I could have then capitalised on that insane Blight with the Obedient Wretch to make that a far more reasonable 27 damage over the activations... but I'm afraid the target had died. If I remember right, the Obedient Wretch ended up walking and taking an interact action for Benny that turn because I had no targets that felt worthwhile hitting with a Bleeding Disease.

 

Bleeding Disease is cool, don't get me wrong, but if I'm looking to erase a target I could get much the same results by playing Parker and just shooting them. Where it excels is against super resilient targets, particularly tanky Masters and Henchmen burning Soulstones, that can actually survive enough regular hits for the Blight to accumulate meaningfully. Which is a bit of a niche role for an action.

 

And to be clear, I think Hamelin is awesome and I play him at nearly every possible opportunity. All his actions are awesome though, and Bleeding Disease gets a bit of an insane fixation for how rarely it comes up as a seriously significant part of the game.

parker deals no dmg-only mad dog, but give him stun and he becomes useless; parker and his crew are weakest in outcasts with zipp; and all of your community always tell abt fun, but it is not fun to play agains such mechanic( i heard abt game vs jack-jack gained 25 blight at turn 3 or 4 as i remember)

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Blight is definitely unfun to play against, it always feels bad gaining a token or condition that you can't remove and once a model has 4+ Blight it feels like it's already dead.

The reason Plague isn't OP is that its keyword models are squishy and bad. Rats, Winged Plagues, Rat Catchers and arguably Rat Kings are just plain bad at scoring VP.

Rats do nothing because they're 2 costs, Winged Plagues are perhaps the worst 4ss model in the game and die to anything, Rat Catchers are almost good but they die to anything and are slow AF. Rat Kings are amazing against mediocre crews but because they need setup a good crew is going to snipe them before they do anything, they are like slower Arachnid Swarms with no defenses.

Squishy minions + auto lose activation control/initiative = bad times for Hamelin.

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1 hour ago, LexLock said:

Blight is definitely unfun to play against, it always feels bad gaining a token or condition that you can't remove and once a model has 4+ Blight it feels like it's already dead.

The reason Plague isn't OP is that its keyword models are squishy and bad. Rats, Winged Plagues, Rat Catchers and arguably Rat Kings are just plain bad at scoring VP.

Rats do nothing because they're 2 costs, Winged Plagues are perhaps the worst 4ss model in the game and die to anything, Rat Catchers are almost good but they die to anything and are slow AF. Rat Kings are amazing against mediocre crews but because they need setup a good crew is going to snipe them before they do anything, they are like slower Arachnid Swarms with no defenses.

Squishy minions + auto lose activation control/initiative = bad times for Hamelin.

thats why u just need to take nix, vretch, sometimes benny and versatiles+good ook models

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2 hours ago, Plaag said:

( i heard abt game vs jack-jack gained 25 blight at turn 3 or 4 as i remember)

That sounds... Good for jack, no idea how you get through terrifying and the rest of the crew that many times unless you stack auras, but imagine how much ap had to be trashed for a 25-- 1 damage bleeding disease

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20 minutes ago, Plaag said:

thats why u just need to take nix, vretch, sometimes benny and versatiles+good ook models

But then how are you getting all the Blight out if you're not hiring the keyword models?

I fear this is going round in circles... 

1 hour ago, Plaag said:

parker deals no dmg-only mad dog, but give him stun and he becomes useless; parker and his crew are weakest in outcasts with zipp; and all of your community always tell abt fun, but it is not fun to play agains such mechanic( i heard abt game vs jack-jack gained 25 blight at turn 3 or 4 as i remember)

I'm fairly sure when I look at Parkers card, he has damage listed on it. Now the best use of Parker may not always be those attacks, but I'm not sure that's helping your point. 

Are you saying Jack Daw had 25 blight on him? That's probably because Jack doesn't care about bleeding disease, and so can let the blight build up on him relatively safely. For anyone else they need to adapt their game plan to the existence of blight. That isn't showing its a problem.

I would be interested to know how they got Jack that high. My guess would be lots of Rats attacking him, and generally getting weak damage (and even that sounds like a bad idea for the Hamlin player), because I can't see someone getting that high passively. 

 

I must admit I am not actually sure what you are trying to claim Plaag. I think at times you have tried sarcastic answers, but its hard to be sure because they read exactly the same as your straight answers. And neither contain enough details for me to really work out what you are actually talking about. 

I can understand that some people don't find blight fun, and it can seem like one of the least fun mechanics in M3. There are probably plenty of people that are indifferent to it, and some that actively like it. 

Blight and Bleeding disease can feel like its oppressive. That is not the same as it actually being oppressive though. 

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2 hours ago, Plaag said:

what crews would make a lot of dmg while hamelin use his lure?)

Any ranged master: Perdita, Sonia, Rasputina, Kaeris, Parker, Von Shill, Ophelia, etc.

Any fast Mele crew: Mei Feng, Nekima, Mc Cabe, Lady J, etc.

Heck I've even had Zoraida do 12 damage first activation turn 1 to kill Cojo from 24" away.

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

But then how are you getting all the Blight out if you're not hiring the keyword models?

I fear this is going round in circles... 

I'm fairly sure when I look at Parkers card, he has damage listed on it. Now the best use of Parker may not always be those attacks, but I'm not sure that's helping your point. 

Are you saying Jack Daw had 25 blight on him? That's probably because Jack doesn't care about bleeding disease, and so can let the blight build up on him relatively safely. For anyone else they need to adapt their game plan to the existence of blight. That isn't showing its a problem.

I would be interested to know how they got Jack that high. My guess would be lots of Rats attacking him, and generally getting weak damage (and even that sounds like a bad idea for the Hamlin player), because I can't see someone getting that high passively. 

 

I must admit I am not actually sure what you are trying to claim Plaag. I think at times you have tried sarcastic answers, but its hard to be sure because they read exactly the same as your straight answers. And neither contain enough details for me to really work out what you are actually talking about. 

I can understand that some people don't find blight fun, and it can seem like one of the least fun mechanics in M3. There are probably plenty of people that are indifferent to it, and some that actively like it. 

Blight and Bleeding disease can feel like its oppressive. That is not the same as it actually being oppressive though. 

just think abt any other master-not jack-he would die very fast

hamelin stack tokens very easy, i played against top outcast and it was suffuring-i hided my rider, but hamelin just run to him and killed at the start of turn 3, because i cannt def all this dmg with stats of 0

parker have no dmg because he havnt got any focus stacking and he has stat 5 first shoot, doesnt ignore cover, doesnt have any good triggers; he can make dog shoot, it is good, he can steal stone, it is good, but he doesnt ignore concealment on it; just weak master and almost all keyword; drop it is useful when u can remove all those markers with your activation

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1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

Any ranged master: Perdita, Sonia, Rasputina, Kaeris, Parker, Von Shill, Ophelia, etc.

Any fast Mele crew: Mei Feng, Nekima, Mc Cabe, Lady J, etc.

Heck I've even had Zoraida do 12 damage first activation turn 1 to kill Cojo from 24" away.

if someone shoot at hamelin-it means that this model will be the target of lure, because none of this masters ignore demise and cannt deal so much dmg to hamelin; fast melee crew will just come into a trap; and your fairy tales abt cojo-just fun to read em

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19 minutes ago, Plaag said:

if someone shoot at hamelin-it means that this model will be the target of lure, because none of this masters ignore demise and cannt deal so much dmg to hamelin; fast melee crew will just come into a trap; and your fairy tales abt cojo-just fun to read em

There's still a few ways to "ignore demise" even if it's not on your card, Hamlin needs his stolen both close and in LOS so you can blast them down (or just shoot) or block sight if your a thing that can, for melee its potentially overwealming force vs a trap that triggers next turn

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26 minutes ago, Plaag said:

and your fairy tales abt cojo-just fun to read em

So other's experience on Zoraida killing Cojo is a fiction story while your experience on Hamelin killing Rider is the universal truth?

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1 hour ago, fire5tone said:

There's still a few ways to "ignore demise" even if it's not on your card, Hamlin needs his stolen both close and in LOS so you can blast them down (or just shoot) or block sight if your a thing that can, for melee its potentially overwealming force vs a trap that triggers next turn

we are talking abt shooting crew-stolen hve stealth and will be far away from any other models, so blast wil not work

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40 minutes ago, Plaag said:

just think abt any other master-not jack-he would die very fast

Yes, but would they have let the tokens get that high? And thinking about it, would many other masters have been alive after they received that much blight even if they were never targeted with bleeding disease? 

 

 

40 minutes ago, Plaag said:

parker have no dmg because he havnt got any focus stacking and he has stat 5 first shoot, doesnt ignore cover, doesnt have any good triggers; he can make dog shoot, it is good, he can steal stone, it is good, but he doesnt ignore concealment on it; just weak master and almost all keyword; drop it is useful when u can remove all those markers with your activation

So stat 5:+flipattacks always miss and stat 6 always hits. (I'm not sure if this is actually what you mean, but its what you have claimed. )

 

13 minutes ago, Plaag said:

and the main quastion-why dmg from tokens havent got any cup and why they are not reducible like linch tokens when he atack

I can guess some answers but I can't tell you a definative answer. 

Bleeding disease doesn't have a cap because it didn't seem like it needed one. Poison and Burning both do things of their own accord so are naturally better to put on a model than Blight, so making an attack based on the level of the three, you'd expect the one with Blight to be the better of those attacks.

Brilliance tokens are easier to stack on a model than Blight tokens, and I would say they are more useful. Largely blight tokens power up bleeding disease and summon rats from your death. Succomb to darkness is a summon as well as a damaging attack, so again its not too surprising that it might be a worse attack. 

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1 hour ago, Plaag said:

if someone shoot at hamelin-it means that this model will be the target of lure, because none of this masters ignore demise and cannt deal so much dmg to hamelin; fast melee crew will just come into a trap; and your fairy tales abt cojo-just fun to read em

But that wasn't what you were talking about. This was to compare a model that could do 7 damage as easily as Hamelin could do 7 Blight tokens.  It wasn't intended as an answer to how to kill Hamelin.

You're just changing the goalposts here. Or at least that is how I read this post. 

4 hours ago, Plaag said:

what crews would make a lot of dmg while hamelin use his lure?)

Which was an answer to this

5 hours ago, Adran said:

Totally - Lure a model twice (with bonus crow) into range of Hamlin and Nix, and charge it with Hamlin and his Black Staff. Then when it activates it'll be on 7. 

That said, whilst its perfectly possible to do, its often using resources to achieve, that other crews would just be doing damage with. So the fact that it feeds a later big hit is hiding the overall effort to achieve that damage. 

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1 hour ago, Plaag said:

if someone shoot at hamelin-it means that this model will be the target of lure, because none of this masters ignore demise and cannt deal so much dmg to hamelin; fast melee crew will just come into a trap; and your fairy tales abt cojo-just fun to read em

So then we are in agreement! Hamelin in an Activation is only able to do around 6 damage to a Master early on, whereas the masters I named are capable of forcing Hamelin to use his Demise ability, meaning they have done at least 14 damage in the same amount of time: ie OVER TWICE AS MUCH.

So we agree that the other masters are better damage dealers than Hamelin with less time and resources.

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1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

So then we are in agreement! Hamelin in an Activation is only able to do around 6 damage to a Master early on, whereas the masters I named are capable of forcing Hamelin to use his Demise ability, meaning they have done at least 14 damage in the same amount of time: ie OVER TWICE AS MUCH.

So we agree that the other masters are better damage dealers than Hamelin with less time and resources.

we just can play such matchup, maybe u will understand

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18 hours ago, Azahul said:

Didn't many of the token-using models in this edition get converted from using conditions in second edition precisely so that their mechanics could not be turned off by condition removal? Adding token removal to the pool just brings that straight back. I'd feel really sorry for Lynch if such a model ever released 😅

That...is a legit point I had not fully considered.  I humbly withdraw my suggestion.

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I do rather love the idea of Parker being a weak Outcast Master. The default expectation for his keyword is like 4 AP a turn, thanks to Fast and Run and Gun, and Parker can often ditch cards to get models to a fifth with his extra Interact actions. We've already had the point raised earlier in this topic that spending a lot of AP to kill models the way Hamelin does isn't typically a point scoring exercise. If you want to see someone machine out points, watch Parker in action :D

 

But yeah, he doesn't like Stunned and it would be nice to have an easy way to stack Focus on him. Going OOK for Scavengers doesn't feel great.

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57 minutes ago, Azahul said:

I do rather love the idea of Parker being a weak Outcast Master. The default expectation for his keyword is like 4 AP a turn, thanks to Fast and Run and Gun, and Parker can often ditch cards to get models to a fifth with his extra Interact actions. We've already had the point raised earlier in this topic that spending a lot of AP to kill models the way Hamelin does isn't typically a point scoring exercise. If you want to see someone machine out points, watch Parker in action :D

 

But yeah, he doesn't like Stunned and it would be nice to have an easy way to stack Focus on him. Going OOK for Scavengers doesn't feel great.

If this is the thread to ask for Christmas/Hanukkah presents for everyone's favourite bandit, I would like a buff to the Convict Gunslingers, who got an underserved point increase ù.ú 

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