Maxine Agassiz (EVS Keyword) Discussion

[Gheist]

Hm i think i'll put it to the test at the weekend, just play Maxine 2 sit her next to the emissary and see what is what, all this theorizing just makes me realise that i haven't played malifaux for 7 days already

[Korrok]

19 hours ago, Jordon said:

Even if it does rule to be per tome discard, it's not all that likely to heal in any extreme amount. Just to see, I loaded up Vassal and I tried this ability 20 times just to see. I did it in groupings of 5 where I changed my starting hand with each new grouping.

What I found was about 50% of time I pulled 2 tomes. A few times I drew three and a few times I drew one. I only drew 4 once and zero also once. So if your not cheating in a tome, you're likely healing two damage. 

If you were really concerned about getting a rare spike, then simply capping it 4 would solve the issue. It's highly unlikely you'd ever get any more than that anyway. 

I feel like this reading helps me understand why she's discarding so many cards (it's fishing for tomes). It's spiky but like you said statistically it will likely only result in like healing 1-3 on average. 

[Korrok]

Not to double post. But someone I know pointed out that "either" before the listing of discarding and cheating seperates them into seperate clauses.  Had that word not been there then "a card matching the reconfigure ability" would apply to both parts. So according to this it would be 1 heal anytime you discard from deck and 1 heal per cheated reconfigure. While I feel the intent is to heal per reconfigure discarded due to the massive card numbers being discarded I'll wait for a faq to find out if I'm assuming or not. 

[santaclaws01]

On 11/1/2021 at 7:35 AM, Adran said:

If you also read page 8 

"If multiple cards are placed into a Discard Pile at once, they are revealed to all players before being placed in the Discard Pile in any order the discarding player chooses."

Then Discards 10 cards is 1 discard which contains 10 cards, not 10 discards, so it shouldn't matter how many tomes there are in there (unless your are reading it so that it needs at least 1 tome to cause it). And that should stop multiple healing from the same discard effect based on the way it is written (at least I think so). 

Like I say, I read it one way, and I'm having to try and get my head around reading it other ways. 

It's one discard effect that discards 10 cards. Each card is still being discsrded. The ability doesn't reference "one or more". I don't see any conflict with that rule and breachburnt.

[santaclaws01]

On 11/6/2021 at 2:17 PM, Korrok said:

Not to double post. But someone I know pointed out that "either" before the listing of discarding and cheating seperates them into seperate clauses.  Had that word not been there then "a card matching the reconfigure ability" would apply to both parts. So according to this it would be 1 heal anytime you discard from deck and 1 heal per cheated reconfigure. While I feel the intent is to heal per reconfigure discarded due to the massive card numbers being discarded I'll wait for a faq to find out if I'm assuming or not. 

Either does not imply completely unrelated clauses. They can still be connected, the way to check is to see if both make grammatical sense. In this case, they wouldn't. 

[Korrok]

5 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Either does not imply completely unrelated clauses. They can still be connected, the way to check is to see if both make grammatical sense. In this case, they wouldn't. 

In which way does it not make grammatical sense? 

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Korrok said:

In which way does it not make grammatical sense? 

Because if they were completely separate the first clause would be "discards from it's fate deck", which is not a complete sentence as there is no subject.

[Korrok]

14 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Because if they were completely separate the first clause would be "discards from it's fate deck", which is not a complete sentence as there is no subject.

Is the "friendly evs model" not the subject of the sentence as a whole? With "discarding" being one of the optioned verbs? 

[Adran]

25 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Because if they were completely separate the first clause would be "discards from it's fate deck", which is not a complete sentence as there is no subject.

I still think the sentence" if you discard from your Fate deck you heal 1" is a sentence that makes sense. I may be grammatically wrong. 

I also think the sentence has a subject, and you mean object. 

To me, reading it does a heal for each card discarded during 1 effect is like saying an ability like black blood happens for each point of damage in a single damage effect. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

25 minutes ago, Adran said:

To me, reading it does a heal for each card discarded during 1 effect is like saying an ability like black blood happens for each point of damage in a single damage effect. 

Black blood is a bit more clearly defined, and also doesn't say 'after this model suffers a point of damage', whereas this arguably says 'discards from its fate deck a card matching reconfigure.'

I think a better comparison is whether or not you think the investigator's Stand Back, It's Evidence! Combos with False Claim to produce two pushes or one.

[Korrok]

24 minutes ago, Adran said:

I still think the sentence" if you discard from your Fate deck you heal 1" is a sentence that makes sense. I may be grammatically wrong. 

It's not grammatically wrong. "you" is the subject and "discard" is the verb. 

[Korrok]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Black blood is a bit more clearly defined, and also doesn't say 'after this model suffers a point of damage', whereas this arguably says 'discards from its fate deck a card matching reconfigure.'

I think a better comparison is whether or not you think the investigator's Stand Back, It's Evidence! Combos with False Claim to produce two pushes or one.

My local meta has bounced back and forth on this and the whole "either" comment I mentioned previously aparently came from an "English major". At this point I just want the vassel people to rule on it in their faq and I'll just go with what they say 😅 that usually resolves these debates for us. 

[Gheist]

Hm... not to be rude but why not lay this decision with the developers.

In most other games, decisions made by players active in competitive gaming leaned to heavily towards personal taste and favour, and as much as i like the world series, the referee decisions should come from outside the active competitive players. Just my personal opinion formed from long years of competitive Tabletopgaming.

I also feel that fixing the blatantly unclear rule sentences more than once a year is not asking too much, because that's not rebalancing, thats just correcting  a probably not well thought over sentence into something thats precise.

I mean whats all this Forum talk for after all. This Post has been ongoing 2 Pages about the meaning of 1 sentence with reference to grammar and such, and all it needs is for devs to look at the card and think about the intent of the rule and then just update the card so this discussion goes obsolete. I mean it hasn't been released it hasn't been incorporated into the app, this should be easy. Gogogo...

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Gheist said:

Hm... not to be rude but why not lay this decision with the developers.

In most other games, decisions made by players active in competitive gaming leaned to heavily towards personal taste and favour, and as much as i like the world series, the referee decisions should come from outside the active competitive players. Just my personal opinion formed from long years of competitive Tabletopgaming.

I also feel that fixing the blatantly unclear rule sentences more than once a year is not asking too much, because that's not rebalancing, thats just correcting  a probably not well thought over sentence into something thats precise.

I mean whats all this Forum talk for after all. This Post has been ongoing 2 Pages about the meaning of 1 sentence with reference to grammar and such, and all it needs is for devs to look at the card and think about the intent of the rule and then just update the card so this discussion goes obsolete. I mean it hasn't been released it hasn't been incorporated into the app, this should be easy. Gogogo...

Well, regardless of how it should work, we're unlikely to get an actual official FAQ until March or so. Although the Malifaux World Series tournaments will have theirs up by January, so a lot of people use that...

That said, in this particular case Wyrd could just edit a few commas into the file and fix the whole thing, so maybe they could address it...

But often these things are left to the players to figure out for the first little while, so thus we discuss it xD

[Gheist]

Yeah i get that i'm not averse to discussion, but it seems to be that it's not worded for a 100%, so ruling on it doesn't really fix the issue, it just builds a worldwide meta on sand ---> we have to know whats intended.

Giveusaprecisesentenceandthentakeallourmoney so to speak.

And again: World Series FAQ: Good thing. But in such a small community, do you guys work with the devs in any way?

And again: the ruling shouldn't be done by the people that compete for the top 16 because it won't be objective no matter how adjusted a bunch of nice people you are

 

 

[Adran]

The vessel world series is a group of tournament organisers. The advantage of them is that they have prepared a fairly comprehensive FAQ, because they don't always have a TO to hand and they want events run by different people to have consistent ruling. 

I can see some groups preferring an Faq from outside their group whilst they wait for a Wyrd one, as its less likely to show favourites.

But the vws FAQ is no more official than the new York one of the UK one, just probably more comprehensive. 

[Gheist]

Confuses me why collaboration is not closer. But this has run off topic so i apologize for abusing this thread, stopping now.

[santaclaws01]

10 hours ago, Korrok said:

Is the "friendly evs model" not the subject of the sentence as a whole? With "discarding" being one of the optioned verbs? 

Sorry, meant to say object. What's being discarded is missing. Discards a what from their fate deck? There can be an argument made that "card" is implied here, but it is never implied in any other instance. Anytime a card is being moved around in a players hand or fate deck or discard pile it explicitly calls out "a card".


To break it down, the subject of the sentence is the model. The verb is either "cheating with" or "discard from the fate deck" and the object is "a card matching their reconfigure suit". The word "Either" is being used to list two verbs that can act on the object that will satisfy the condition to heal 1.


As for the comment about how the word either works being from an English major, ask them what is being rinsed in the sentence "You can either rinse or dry the dishes".

[Gheist]

That's how i would interpret that rule and would have never thought otherwise, but for other reasons (crew mechanic)

but let's just wait for all the FAQs

[KingCowfish]

Hey all, looking to get back into the game and I have landed upon Maxine (mostly because I love her lore).  Anyway, weird question, but I recently ordered her core pack and I am planning how I want to build/paint her, and I was wondering if anyone had ideas on how to base her (and the EVS keyword)?  I was thinking a ship deck, but then I realized there is no description of what kind of ship she has (that I am aware of), only that it is old even for the early 1900s.  Would it have a wooden deck or a metal one?  Anyone have any decent sites for premade resin bases?  Am I overthinking this?  Thanks!

[hydranixx]

On 1/13/2022 at 6:25 PM, KingCowfish said:

Hey all, looking to get back into the game and I have landed upon Maxine (mostly because I love her lore).  Anyway, weird question, but I recently ordered her core pack and I am planning how I want to build/paint her, and I was wondering if anyone had ideas on how to base her (and the EVS keyword)?  I was thinking a ship deck, but then I realized there is no description of what kind of ship she has (that I am aware of), only that it is old even for the early 1900s.  Would it have a wooden deck or a metal one?  Anyone have any decent sites for premade resin bases?  Am I overthinking this?  Thanks!

You could get away with either metal or wood - consider that by 1906, there were already enormous passenger ships like the Lusitania, not to mention all the various dreadnoughts and battleships and so forth that made up military fleets.

There's lots of interesting ways to base EVS, if you're open to other ideas.

When I think them, I think not just a ship - though that does also come to mind - but I also think of a nautical theme in general; open seawater, tropical beaches, estuaries, rivers, shipwrecks, icy rocks and so forth. One of the first concepts I wanted to explore was a beach shore, with lapping waves meeting sand, with little pebbles, starfish, exotic seaweed that had washed ashore and so forth.

Since all my Explorers crews are tundra themed, I reigned that in a bit and settled for a mix of ice and water, plus the snow, bushes and trees (still WIP) that will help tie all my crews together. Note the line up of bases is prior to the water medium setting   

[Korrok]

Looks like we got word on how this works now. 

[KingCowfish]

Hey again, a little off topic (I wasn't sure if I should start a separate thread for this, so my apologies if this is the wrong place) but I'm just looking for a little advice regarding my upcoming first games:

1: I plan to start out with some hardcore henchmen games and I was wondering if I should change my list (I currently have the Maxine Core box, the Explorer's Society Core box, and the Off The Deep End box):

Leader:

Kiya Manimi 

Hires:

Machinist

Calypso Mk II

Dr. Beebe

3ss Left

 

2: I think I understand how he works, but what is the best way to utilize Dr. Beebe and Calypso?  Like should he start the game piloting it?  Are there instances where I want to deploy them separately? 

3: I believe my opponents will be running one of the following keywords: Marshal, Honeypot, and Last Blossom.  Any thoughts on what I should prepare for?

4: Finally, I do want to expand further into ES masters and I was wondering which keyword/master would make a good second master to cover the schemes and strategies that EVS is poor at?

Thanks!

[hydranixx]

Looks like a good crew to start with to me. Just keep the Machinist safely tucked away from harm behind Kiya & Calypso so that it can repair them, give them Shielded and Focus, and cycle cards, in peace. 

 

On 3/7/2022 at 7:18 PM, KingCowfish said:

2: I think I understand how he works, but what is the best way to utilize Dr. Beebe and Calypso?  Like should he start the game piloting it?  Are there instances where I want to deploy them separately? 

3: I believe my opponents will be running one of the following keywords: Marshal, Honeypot, and Last Blossom.  Any thoughts on what I should prepare for?

4: Finally, I do want to expand further into ES masters and I was wondering which keyword/master would make a good second master to cover the schemes and strategies that EVS is poor at?

Thanks!

2. There's no reason to deploy Dr Beebe outside of Calypso, unless your opponent has tech that can attack Buried models. While you're learning the crew, you should just consider them to be one model that activates twice. 95% of the time, they'll operate as exactly that.

 

3. With regards to the above, I think some Marshal models can in fact attack/affect Dr Beebe while he's Buried - for instance, The Jury can. Ask your opponent before set up if any of their models can do that. If they can, you might consider deploying him separately - but still keep him near Calypso to support it.

Honeypot features quite a bit of Incorporeal and Terrifying, so Kiya is perfect there. If you end up in that match up, prioritise getting Focus and Shielded on her from the Machinist, then swing for the fences. 

I haven't played against Last Blossom enough to really offer any advice there.

 

4. I personally think EVS' single biggest weakness is lack of raw Scheme Marker generation/denial, so if you're open to playing Anya, I'd suggest her.

Fun Fact, the phrase "Scheme Marker" is only printed twice in the entire EVS keyword, while the term "Interact" doesn't feature at all. While this does not necessarily make EVS a bad choice for taking Scheme Marker Schemes (Dr Beebe & Calypso are still very good at most of these), I think there are other specialists out there who can operate in pools with 3 or more Scheme Marker Schemes a bit better. Anya is the single most prolific Scheme Marker based master in our faction, which is why I think she's a great backup master for Maxine. Also, her crew box comes with Winston Finnegan, who's terrific in many Maxine crews.

[Plaag]

On 11/8/2021 at 11:56 AM, Gheist said:

Hm... not to be rude but why not lay this decision with the developers.

In most other games, decisions made by players active in competitive gaming leaned to heavily towards personal taste and favour, and as much as i like the world series, the referee decisions should come from outside the active competitive players. Just my personal opinion formed from long years of competitive Tabletopgaming.

I also feel that fixing the blatantly unclear rule sentences more than once a year is not asking too much, because that's not rebalancing, thats just correcting  a probably not well thought over sentence into something thats precise.

I mean whats all this Forum talk for after all. This Post has been ongoing 2 Pages about the meaning of 1 sentence with reference to grammar and such, and all it needs is for devs to look at the card and think about the intent of the rule and then just update the card so this discussion goes obsolete. I mean it hasn't been released it hasn't been incorporated into the app, this should be easy. Gogogo...

i think that operative answers from devs woupd be great and this answers we should get in the app-nobody need cards on a paper now, so only fate decks for irl game

and maybe some place like forum, where devs will answer on faq and we not need to wait whole year for it to happen