Qi and Gong - Unlocking the Keyword

[James Dyson]

Howdy folks!  I'm cross-posting this here from the Battle Report subforum since it's relevant to the Ten Thunders.

I recently started recording games as I try to figure out what the Qi and Gong keyword is trying to do on the table.  I'm 2 games in now, with more to come.  If you'd like to follow along with me and share your thoughts, please consider giving the videos a watch!
 

 

[Assdex]

U di a great work on this. Buy let me show a few mistake u made . I say It cuzci player youko too.

1 -we own u trigger no trigger from this . It kind of sad. Second One youko can play aggressive but anyway she needs a lot of save for this.not sure what its relevant.

3 she need a lit of stone for triggers and really fear of stun.

Over all she is not great master but i like ur playstyle and wanna see some tricks and learn from u.

P.s. Bunraku terrible.

[Da Git]

49 minutes ago, Assdex said:

Bunraku terrible

Massively disagree with this. These guys are awesome scheme runners/hunters for 6ss. The Stunned trigger on their attack has also come in useful. I generally always take 1.

Agree on the large cache. The strongest parts of Youko are all on non-suited triggers. Really wish she had like a super leverage where she could use Pass tokens as suits.

Will give this a watch and interested to follow along!

[Assdex]

6 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Massively disagree with this. These guys are awesome scheme runners/hunters for 6ss. The Stunned trigger on their attack has also come in useful. I generally always take 1.

Agree on the large cache. The strongest parts of Youko are all on non-suited triggers. Really wish she had like a super leverage where she could use Pass tokens as suits.

Will give this a watch and interested to follow along!

Why , why not pick desper or hakster or ninja on scheme ran. Mb we play in different meta but in  mother Russia we play hench scheme run. 

 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Da Git said:

Massively disagree with this. These guys are awesome scheme runners/hunters for 6ss. The Stunned trigger on their attack has also come in useful. I generally always take 1.

Agree on the large cache. The strongest parts of Youko are all on non-suited triggers. Really wish she had like a super leverage where she could use Pass tokens as suits.

Will give this a watch and interested to follow along!

they are useless, damned katashiro is better, carl! and as it was said above - desper is much more better

[fire5tone]

2 hours ago, Plaag said:

they are useless, damned katashiro is better, carl! and as it was said above - desper is much more better

Ok but *how* are katashiro better?

From my (albeit limited) experience with bunraku they are very solid: fast, reasonably defensive for their cost, and decent schemers and anti schemers even has a lure for extra annoyance (even if that's common for qi & gong, still aint fun)

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, fire5tone said:

Ok but *how* are katashiro better?

From my (albeit limited) experience with bunraku they are very solid: fast, reasonably defensive for their cost, and decent schemers and anti schemers even has a lure for extra annoyance (even if that's common for qi & gong, still aint fun)

they havent got any move/place tricks or agile/ cant remove markers/ cost 6; i think its enough to understand

[Jinn]

24 minutes ago, Plaag said:

they havent got any move/place tricks or agile/ cant remove markers/ cost 6; i think its enough to understand

I don't think Bunraku are particularly good, but they do have Risky Maneuver which lets them push 3" (and suffer a damage, ouch).

They can leave an engagement and interact, or place two scheme markers in a single activation, the things a schemer needs to be able to do. The reason they're not that great is because to use them properly as a schemer you need to constantly put chip damage on a model that relies on armour to survive in a crew that is already struggling.

[Da Git]

What do you mean no movement tricks? They've got Risky manuoevre for for self push (with a Focused) or Lure for other models.

Comparing them to Katashiro:

• Much tankier and harder hitting
• about as fast (Mv6 + 3" push)

Katashiro are great, don't get me wrong, but they fold like paper (see what I did there!). Katashiro are the same cost as Bunraku for Qi & Gong (I'd rather Katashiro if both were OOK, but this is a Qi & Gong discussion).

Desper is of course better, but then you're also paying for that (& Youko wants her some of dat tasty, tasty soulstone-crack!)

Torakage I wouldn't take OOK as their bonus becomes very niche.

Hucksters are great (1ss more expensive OOK) and probably better if you're going WAAC, which sounds like the Russian meta.

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, Da Git said:

What do you mean no movement tricks? They've got Risky manuoevre for for self push (with a Focused) or Lure for other models.

Comparing them to Katashiro:

• Much tankier and harder hitting
• about as fast (Mv6 + 3" push)

Katashiro are great, don't get me wrong, but they fold like paper (see what I did there!). Katashiro are the same cost as Bunraku for Qi & Gong (I'd rather Katashiro if both were OOK, but this is a Qi & Gong discussion).

Desper is of course better, but then you're also paying for that (& Youko wants her some of dat tasty, tasty soulstone-crack!)

Torakage I wouldn't take OOK as their bonus becomes very niche.

Hucksters are great (1ss more expensive OOK) and probably better if you're going WAAC, which sounds like the Russian meta.

what is waac? and i forgot abt risky maneur, but they still dont ignore terrain, doesnt intaract with markers-only with intaract action, and his actions-u will not save card with trigger u need for that model because u will spend good cards for good models/actions/def/with normal stat; yes-sometimes u can flip trigger u need, but this is random;  and they are straight models-u know that it will go here, trying to put marker, for example, they dont have a lot of variations

[Adran]

WAAC is win at all costs. Its sometimes used as a negative, but not always. you certainly seem to be of the "model is no use if its not the very best", frame of mind which goes to the mind set of you must play the very best things you can because that gives you the best chance of winning. 

 

 

[Da Git]

7 minutes ago, Adran said:

WAAC is win at all costs. Its sometimes used as a negative, but not always. you certainly seem to be of the "model is no use if its not the very best", frame of mind which goes to the mind set of you must play the very best things you can because that gives you the best chance of winning.

Pretty much this. Lots of metas (including mine) tend to run a bit more themey with majority in-keyword choices (with a few counterpicks or versatiles) unless we tell the opponent that we want to try something janky (I had a super fun M2E Titania crew that involved Hannah copying the Grootslang's Lair to Lair action to teleport around the board for example... really miss that crew!).

[James Dyson]

7 hours ago, Assdex said:

U di a great work on this. Buy let me show a few mistake u made . I say It cuzci player youko too.

1 -we own u trigger no trigger from this . It kind of sad. Second One youko can play aggressive but anyway she needs a lot of save for this.not sure what its relevant.

3 she need a lit of stone for triggers and really fear of stun.

Over all she is not great master but i like ur playstyle and wanna see some tricks and learn from u.

P.s. Bunraku terrible.

Thank you for the kind words and feedback!  A quick response:

Correct, I think I realized this is game 2 vs Kaeris.  That is kind of sad, but even without triggers an Obey can be a deterrent and force the discards, which is what I'm really going for.  If anything, the obey is the result I don't want (at least, I think right now).

She really does, and condition removal seems very important for her crew.  I'm looking forward to including Tanuki as soon as I can, as I think they'll do the job of focus spam alongside a Kunoichi nicely (the idea of double focus spam on Bill and Hina seems very good to me).

I think if you look at 10 thunders as a whole, there are plenty of better scheme runners for sure.  As pointed out by others, the Bunraku are move 6, have the ability to disengage and still scheme, and are durable *enough* to take a hit.  Thus they are serviceable, but not the best.  When I open hiring to versatiles and OOK, I do think I'd explore those other options.  Though I'd argue that Youko isn't an all-pools kind of master, so if you are inclined towards scheme running in the first place just hire a McCabe crew.

[regleant]

On-topic, please fix the audio. It sounded more like an ASMR audio-book than someone excited about playing a new crew. This probably the opposite of what you intended, especially given how thoroughly you went through each and every model.

[Maogrim]

Thank you very much for sharing the video and your insights on Youko. She was the master who got me back into Malifaux a few weeks ago, but then I read more and more about her being pretty weak (and realized that almost all of her actions are also found on other models) which kinda bummed me out a little. So I'm going with Honeypot for the time being...On that note, it's a bit ridiculous how much Beckoners are better than Geishas, for just one additional stone.

Anyways, I really liked the video and the in-depth look at all of her key word models. In terms of presentation it sounded very quiet, so I had to turn up the audio, but that's obviously not a problem. Will you provide videos or pictures from your test games? And hopefully painted models? :)

Will definitely follow your journey with Youko, and maybe you'll be able to convince me to give her a change again. ;)

[LeperColony]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

WAAC is win at all costs. Its sometimes used as a negative, but not always. you certainly seem to be of the "model is no use if its not the very best", frame of mind which goes to the mind set of you must play the very best things you can because that gives you the best chance of winning. 

 

 

Playing the most efficient models is not, in itself, WAAC.  It could very well be the case that Plaag's meta doesn't allow for a lot of inefficiency.  And at any rate, when evaluating the effectiveness of a model in the abstract (as is typically done on the forums), indicating reasons why one is preferable to another has nothing to do with your desire to win, or your willingness to abandon any other value to winning.

I'm not saying this is anything you don't know.  But my concern is when WAAC gets used, as it was in this thread, as a pejorative to undermine the value of objective comparative analysis between models.  Plaag could very well be wrong for other reasons.  But a moral judgment of his priorities doesn't address whether a model is effective or not.

[James Dyson]

@regleant You're not the first to comment about the quiet volume - I'll be playing around with it for the next 'update' video in a few games for sure.  I'll see if I can up the hype factor too

 

1 hour ago, Maogrim said:

Thank you very much for sharing the video and your insights on Youko. She was the master who got me back into Malifaux a few weeks ago, but then I read more and more about her being pretty weak (and realized that almost all of her actions are also found on other models) which kinda bummed me out a little. So I'm going with Honeypot for the time being...On that note, it's a bit ridiculous how much Beckoners are better than Geishas, for just one additional stone.

Anyways, I really liked the video and the in-depth look at all of her key word models. In terms of presentation it sounded very quiet, so I had to turn up the audio, but that's obviously not a problem. Will you provide videos or pictures from your test games? And hopefully painted models?

Will definitely follow your journey with Youko, and maybe you'll be able to convince me to give her a change again.

Unfortunately my games with Youko will be all on Vassal for the time being - but once I get the crew bought and painted, I'll see about getting some IRL battle reports in.  Until then, please check out the Vassal games.

[Assdex]

10 hours ago, Da Git said:

What do you mean no movement tricks? They've got Risky manuoevre for for self push (with a Focused) or Lure for other models.

Comparing them to Katashiro:

• Much tankier and harder hitting
• about as fast (Mv6 + 3" push)

Katashiro are great, don't get me wrong, but they fold like paper (see what I did there!). Katashiro are the same cost as Bunraku for Qi & Gong (I'd rather Katashiro if both were OOK, but this is a Qi & Gong discussion).

Desper is of course better, but then you're also paying for that (& Youko wants her some of dat tasty, tasty soulstone-crack!)

Torakage I wouldn't take OOK as their bonus becomes very niche.

Hucksters are great (1ss more expensive OOK) and probably better if you're going WAAC, which sounds like the Russian meta.

Let be honest if u play wisely desper cost is 6. Cuz he steal/loot some stones for u.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Assdex said:

Let be honest if u play wisely desper cost is 6. Cuz he steal/loot some stones for u.

I don't think you can just straight discount him 2-3 stones though. There's a positioning cost to getting those stones, and you're not getting them until later. Often if I see an opponent has a soulstone production plan, I put pressure on them early to abuse them before they've had a chance to accumulate value.

[SEV]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Often if I see an opponent has a soulstone production plan, I put pressure on them early to abuse them before they've had a chance to accumulate value.

Can you elaborate please. I found this really hard to stop.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, SEV said:

Can you elaborate please. I found this really hard to stop.

Let's say I'm up against an Arcanist player with a soulstone miner and 2 stones. He doesn't just have 7 stones that game (though he will by the end). He has:

• Turn 1: 3 stones
• Turn 2: 4 stones
• Turn 3: 5 stones
• Turn 4: 6 stones
• Turn 5: 7 stones

(Or whatever, he may use his actions differently).

So looking at that, I might think to myself "wow, I should absolutely smash him turns 1 and 2. That way he only has 4 of his 7 stones available to keep his master and henchmen alive.

It doesn't matter if you generate tons of stones after your people who can use them are dead (though they still help with hand of course). In general, resources are more valuable earlier in the game than later in the game (since big impacts early in the game can influence later in the game, it is much easier to snowball to victory with a strong start).

[James Dyson]

@Maniacal_cackleThis is a point that I have long felt, but haven't seen put into words like that before.

I feel like models that generate stones are often evaluated from the perspective of being a glorified pass token, but the fact remains that those models can - and should - do other things.  Prospector notably does some hand cycling, but is also a model with two AP.  There are times when a Soulstone Miner might need to walk twice and drop a scheme marker - in that case, it's not generating that stone.  So these soulstone generating models have opportunity costs baked in that might make the effective soulstone return on them more like 2-3 stones. 

For a model like Desper, who I've only put on the table a handful of times, I do not think I want him anywhere near enemy soulstone users.  I'd much rather he be acting like the Midnight Stalker - away from the scrum, scheming on the flanks.  If a soulstone user comes after him, sure I'd use Expert Thief before getting away.  Do folks find that they prefer to charge him in?  If they do, are they giving him any upgrades to make sure he doesn't die to the counterattack (DF/ WP 5 with 8 wounds - I worry you're burning the stones you just stole to keep him up, in which case it feels like a bad trade).
 

[Assdex]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't think you can just straight discount him 2-3 stones though. There's a positioning cost to getting those stones, and you're not getting them until later. Often if I see an opponent has a soulstone production plan, I put pressure on them early to abuse them before they've had a chance to accumulate value.

Loot the corpses kill enemy scheme runner. U got options 

[Assdex]

5 hours ago, Diceman87 said:

@Maniacal_cackleThis is a point that I have long felt, but haven't seen put into words like that before.

I feel like models that generate stones are often evaluated from the perspective of being a glorified pass token, but the fact remains that those models can - and should - do other things.  Prospector notably does some hand cycling, but is also a model with two AP.  There are times when a Soulstone Miner might need to walk twice and drop a scheme marker - in that case, it's not generating that stone.  So these soulstone generating models have opportunity costs baked in that might make the effective soulstone return on them more like 2-3 stones. 

For a model like Desper, who I've only put on the table a handful of times, I do not think I want him anywhere near enemy soulstone users.  I'd much rather he be acting like the Midnight Stalker - away from the scrum, scheming on the flanks.  If a soulstone user comes after him, sure I'd use Expert Thief before getting away.  Do folks find that they prefer to charge him in?  If they do, are they giving him any upgrades to make sure he doesn't die to the counterattack (DF/ WP 5 with 8 wounds - I worry you're burning the stones you just stole to keep him up, in which case it feels like a bad trade).
 

Sometimes he can be great beater cuz 3/4)/6 dmg ignore armor.sometimes u steal stone deal stun and leap. All about situation . I agree he is not tanky but he got a lot of tool what u need. And his combo with jynx for discard from charm and steal stones good setup for execution from misaki. If u focus on discard then kill enemy master or hench

[James Dyson]

5 hours ago, Assdex said:

Sometimes he can be great beater cuz 3/4)/6 dmg ignore armor.sometimes u steal stone deal stun and leap. All about situation . I agree he is not tanky but he got a lot of tool what u need. And his combo with jynx for discard from charm and steal stones good setup for execution from misaki. If u focus on discard then kill enemy master or hench

Fair enough - I will give him a try for sure!