Anya Lycarayen (Syndicate Keyword) Discussion

[Rufess]

To be honest I have no idea if it is an overlook or an intended change. Unlike the "another" one, this one effects only Geode Marker of Surveyor for now. Seeker has multiple ways to interact with the marker. While Syndicate does not, I think it makes prefect sense for a dual keyword model having some effects favoring one keyword over another. And given that Corvis and Winston have control effect to force enemies to take action when in base contact with the marker, there is, very limited but still, some synergy with the markers in Syndicate.

The more important is that, I do not want to use these kind of "uncertainty" for own benefit. Union Buster with 2 hazard aura for irresistible 2 ping damage is already a powerful move, adding another hazard source would just make it worse for the opponent. Hence I would never play this way when I am playing Anya.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think many TOs would rule it that it works as intended. If you delete the word 'through' from the hazardous section, suddenly all the rules work.

I think it is pretty clearly an error from missing a word when they errata-ed it.

The rules work as currently written, they just aren't symmetrical any more. You can argue that it would be easier to follow if they returned to a symmetrical state, but that's not the same as saying they don't work now.

If you read the current rules then its fairly clear that if you move to base contact with a hazardous impassable terrain marker you don't take damage, but it you resolve any part of an action whilst in base contact with a hazardous impassable marker you do. So if your move is part of your action you take damage, if you are moved by someone else's actions, you don't take damage. 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

The rules work as currently written, they just aren't symmetrical any more. You can argue that it would be easier to follow if they returned to a symmetrical state, but that's not the same as saying they don't work now.

If you read the current rules then its fairly clear that if you move to base contact with a hazardous impassable terrain marker you don't take damage, but it you resolve any part of an action whilst in base contact with a hazardous impassable marker you do. So if your move is part of your action you take damage, if you are moved by someone else's actions, you don't take damage. 

 

Well, sure they work but they get super murky. There's a big discussion on the rules forum so no need to go into too much detail, but some issues that come up when you use 'moving through':

• Do you have to move through the entirety of the terrain, or part of it?
  • The dictionary definition of 'through' suggests that it'd be moving entirely through.
  • And the book doesn't define it, so it isn't clear.
• If you push 0" in terrain, do you take the hazardous? That isn't moving 'through' in any sense, is it? Or if you move 0" while in terrain?

So if going with the 'moving through' interpretation, a TO has to be ready to resolve all that as well (you can find more information in the rules thread on the issue).

[Adran]

26 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, sure they work but they get super murky. There's a big discussion on the rules forum so no need to go into too much detail, but some issues that come up when you use 'moving through':

• Do you have to move through the entirety of the terrain, or part of it?
  • The dictionary definition of 'through' suggests that it'd be moving entirely through.
  • And the book doesn't define it, so it isn't clear.
• If you push 0" in terrain, do you take the hazardous? That isn't moving 'through' in any sense, is it? Or if you move 0" while in terrain?

So if going with the 'moving through' interpretation, a TO has to be ready to resolve all that as well (you can find more information in the rules thread on the issue).

Respectfully disagree.

An argument that you have to move through the entirety of the terrain is playing devils advocate. If I walk through the sea by the beach I don't walk through the entirety of the sea. If you argue that you need to walk through the entirety of a terrain then wouldn't that mean you have to cover every single part of the terrain at some point? If I walk through a stream, not all of me has gone through all of the stream. Even if I walked from 1 side to the other, only part of me was in the stream. and I was only in part of the stream. I can walk for 2 hours through the woods before I sit down. I haven't left the woods. 

And according to the rule book if you push 0" you count as having moved. I would say that if you have moved and part of you is in hazardous terrain, you have moved through hazardous terrain, even if you are still in the same location. 

I don't recall any of these being arguments that were brought up before Hazardous was errata'd even though it still used moved through. (They may have been and I've just blanked them, but that at least suggests to me that it was not a very  common misconception). 

[Rufess]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The dictionary definition of 'through' suggests that it'd be moving entirely through.

If it was the case, then a model could move into an impassible terrain and end inside since it was not "moving through" the terrain.

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 hours ago, Adran said:

I don't recall any of these being arguments that were brought up before Hazardous was errata'd even though it still used moved through.

Well, that's kind of my point too. People weren't super pedantic about what 'moved through' meant back then, but now that Wyrd clearly tried to errata the errata rules to deal with base contact, people want to argue that moved through doesn't include base contact but does include a 0" push (which is defined as move, but not defined as moving through. A place is defined as moving through).

So I just don't get the distinction there, and also figure just give Wyrd the benefit of the doubt that they didn't mean a super convoluted ruling and they just meant that hazardous now works how you'd think (aka, it works normally with pushes into base contact or actions in base contact, no difference) and they forgot to delete a word.

EDIT: To me it is no different from the Face in the Crowd ruling or Reva's Lampads coming in with 0 health. Technically both of those rules 'work', but they feel awfully silly when you could just read them as intended and suddenly they make a lot more sense IMO.

But it is totally subjective and a TO's call.

[hydranixx]

23 hours ago, Rufess said:

I hate to tell you that, but the Geode Marker does not work this way. 

No need to hate it, thank you for letting me know! 😃 I clearly need to brush up on my Hazardous Marker rules - or leave Surveyors on the shelf haha. 

[Adran]

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, that's kind of my point too. People weren't super pedantic about what 'moved through' meant back then, but now that Wyrd clearly tried to errata the errata rules to deal with base contact, people want to argue that moved through doesn't include base contact but does include a 0" push (which is defined as move, but not defined as moving through. A place is defined as moving through).

So I just don't get the distinction there, and also figure just give Wyrd the benefit of the doubt that they didn't mean a super convoluted ruling and they just meant that hazardous now works how you'd think (aka, it works normally with pushes into base contact or actions in base contact, no difference) and they forgot to delete a word.

EDIT: To me it is no different from the Face in the Crowd ruling or Reva's Lampads coming in with 0 health. Technically both of those rules 'work', but they feel awfully silly when you could just read them as intended and suddenly they make a lot more sense IMO.

But it is totally subjective and a TO's call.

I'm confused. This doesn't agree with my memory of things (which could have been wrong), so I went and looked back at the errata and I'm still confused and don't understand what you're talking about. 

Timeline as I see it

Wyrd have hazardous rules. They largely work. (there is at least 1 subjective loop hole, but its a rare case and on the whole the community don't seem to have a problem with it)

Wyrd do the first errata - they don't change hazardous. 

Wyrd release explorers, this includes Hazardous impassable markers. They work in the rules, and the faction has several reasons as to why the hazardous trait could be added to an impassable marker and do things, but it does look a little strange.

Wyrd releases an errata in which they add resolving an action whilst in base contact with the hazardous terrain as something which triggers it.  Everything else is just the same as it was before. (This is my paraphrasing, actual change is the addition of the words in italics "...resolves one of its Actions while in base contact with or while in Hazardous Terrain)

There is no trying to errata an errata that I can see. There is 1 errata, and that's it from Wyrd on the subject so far.

I may well be basing the intent off the original rules and assuming that the addition of the errata is to provide a use for impassable hazardous terrain, and if I had never used the original rules I suppose I may think there was a different intent, but I don't see how that is "super convoluted".  I read what is written and assume the intent was to add that 1 extra occurrence even though it breaks the symmetry it used to have. You appear to read it, assume they wanted to preserve the symmetry and that they have made a typo so that they should have added 2 extra things, rather than just the 1 they did add. 

You might be right with the intent, I can't say, but when given the choice between playing what is written and what isn't written, when both could be equally likely, I default to the what is written, until I hear otherwise. 

That does not in anyway seem the same as Face in the crowd which, as written, contained a lot of pointless words that will never have an effect. 

In one case, there is clearly two different effects based on the use of the words or not (since that's what we're discussing), whilst in the other if you followed it as written, you should write a much simpler ability to get the same effect. 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yeah fair enough. I imagine it'll just go in circles at this point.

Just back to the original point - check with your TO. Different metas handle it differently.

[Aemaru]

First game with Anya v1...

 

Very nice master to play.. Schemes were not the best ones for anya (vendetta/assassinate/ claim jump... nothing dealings with schemes markers) versus McM v2

I have played with mei feng v2 for a little time and wanted to change a little with explorers. I think I was influenced by Mei Feng, so i took the center sending sovereign and wells by the sides and brawling with anya/yannic/ rook/winston by the center.

I think theory crafting leads sometimes to want an excess of one thing. During my game with only scheme hazardous it was already way enough to disrupt my opponent play. Hazardous + ability to move ennemies + Card drawing (i particulary enjoy this part given it's a clear limitation of mei feng)

Not as mobile as Mei Feng v2 but very reliable. It's a mix of Spark Leblanc and Mei Feng herself. The fact to only need LOS to make schemes hazardous is really nicer.

Rook is a very solid model ! winston was a bit harder to handle, his role is not always easy to find and rely on finding the right orders activation. Even with operative with her drawing mecanic was really usefull ! (two cards + two schemes in one actvation ^^)

Even without emmisary Anya was quite safe with a brawler well positioned aside. She was always pinging herself or attacking with tomahawk (what an attack action this one !!) and then always coming to full health even being poisoned.

My first impressions about this crew are very nice ! Versatile, good card drawing, few anti condition, some mobility and a lot of control and ping damages allowing to avoid some defensive tech !!

Thanks for all the posts, it helped me !

[Giovanni Canzanella]

On 2/11/2022 at 8:58 AM, Aemaru said:

Rook is a very solid model !

Rook is an AMAZING model. I struggled a lot with him, when I first used Anya, not understanding his potential.

Then you realize that the man can literally do EVERYTHING he wants with his Stat7, using all the triggers that he wants, and whenever he wants.
Then, you notice that he can be very hard to take down (not impossible, but hard): in fact, your opponent will think twice before attacking a model that puts a  on all the incoming attacks.

I wouldn't neglect the Operatives as well, charming tech pieces that can find a place in your list against certain crews (they are amazing against Dreamer). Just keep them in the backlines and fire on everything that tries to engage Corvis, and laugh at your enemy's face when you tell him that they ignore Terrifying 

On 2/11/2022 at 8:58 AM, Aemaru said:

Winston was a bit harder to handle

True, he's not solid as Corvis and he will die very quickly to a decisive attack (a Viktoria can easily melt him in one activation). Nonetheless, he's an auto-take for his Arcane Reservoir and his movement shenanigans, just be careful not to send him too far away on his own.

Welcome to the Condor Rails, enjoy your trip ! 🚂

[RoivasO]

What do your guy's average turns look like with Anya1 herself? As I can't seem to get the value out of her I need from a Master. 

Her kit seems to contradict itself in that her bonus action is a projectile, but she's a stat 7 min 3 beater so she wants to be in melee. Anya also seems to squishy to really get use out of hazardous as a defensive tech, so instead the main use is to Union Buster to ping models for 1? Assuming you can get a scheme marker down first. 

[Adran]

My experience with anya is she is squishy and does not want to be in combat outside of her activation. She can be a great scalpel or she can try and use hazardous to control a scrum, but she doesn't want to be in that scrum. 

I tend to use something else to create/survive the scrum and have her on the edges, bullying smaller models she can kill in a turn without getting herself beat on. 

[Mindbadger]

She very much depends on the situation and what you are up against. I either tend to use her as a mobile schemer or mobile assassin to take out a key piece or straggler on the flank. Maybe to the end of the game, I might chuck her in the middle to cause as much carnage as she can, but she is a bit squishy to do that early, I try to keep her on the outskirts.

 

So a typical turn would be something like:

Drop a scheme, bonus action with the trigger to follow it, move and then scheme again (3 scheme markers down).

Bonus action with the trigger to follow it to beside an enemy, attack enemy, attack again to kill it, then charge another.

Both quite situational scenarios but hopefully that can show you the extremes between scheming for points and doing heaps of damage.

I haven't actually used Union Buster much, but then again I've been against crews who ignore a lot of hazardous so it would probably be better against other crews. Something like: bonus action, Union Buster enemies into it, charge in to mop up weakened enemies, or taking them low enough to die to hazardous on their turn.

[Mindbadger]

Adding on to this, for a first turn, I try to activate her last and keep her next to the Sovreign, who will use Fly With Me on her. With that and her mobility (6 move and the Steel Momentum trigger on Bleeding Edge), you should be able to get her in a position to pick off lone models on the flank, take out a key model or keep clear of the scrum and go for an objective near the sides.

Sometimes she won't feel like the most impactful, exciting master if you are using her for scheming and activating strat objectives, but if she's scoring you points, then she's doing her job. And she can always charge back into the fray if need be at the end once all the interacting is done.

[Rufess]

Anya, unlike some other masters, does not have a "regular step" or "routine". She is an all-rounded master with vary toolkit that can accomplish different tasks based on the situation.

And yes she is very squish as a master, so you would need to be very careful on those threats that can kill her in an Activation, which are almost everything. Always using Reposition or Union Buster to disengage before ending her Activation(unless you are playing against a range crew). Also keep at least one escape plan to rescue Anya out of danger. Winston, Emissary or Mikhail are my usual safety net.

The tomahawk is good for sure, but Anya is not Nekima, and she does not need to swing her melee thrice a turn to become impactful. And Bleeding Edge is not necessary an offense tool(actually it is more a scheming tool to me). It is nothing wrong to use an Action to Disengage rather than attacking and then jump away with the bonus action.

[hydranixx]

17 hours ago, RoivasO said:

What do your guy's average turns look like with Anya1 herself? As I can't seem to get the value out of her I need from a Master. 

Her kit seems to contradict itself in that her bonus action is a projectile, but she's a stat 7 min 3 beater so she wants to be in melee. Anya also seems to squishy to really get use out of hazardous as a defensive tech, so instead the main use is to Union Buster to ping models for 1? Assuming you can get a scheme marker down first. 

I don't really see her as a min 3 beater since I think her best melee triggers are usually the stun and card draw triggers. A Stat 7 Stun is extremely punishing to some models, and drawing a card while getting to discard the top card of your deck if its bad makes for good card advantage - all the while handing out ~2-4 damage.

 

As many have stated in the thread, most of the time you want Anya1 to push enemies around pinging them for damage, or run Schemes, or pick off isolated models - and basically only commit her to protracted melee when/where it's safe.

 

However, if the pool or matchup allows her to be a little more aggressive, I'll pop Hidden Agenda onto her and just start swinging that Tomahawk as often as I can, basically whenever she's not under immediate danger. When I do this, I'll often look at Bleeding Edge more as a Leap with some extra text on it, using it just as a tool to get in range to swing 3 times. It's not as good as a Leap when used in this capacity, but it's serviceable.

Even without having good cards in hand, the ability to cheat face-down, with a suit on every trigger, and those triggers ranging between good and great, is very powerful - especially since you can also use Price of Progress to bake-in whichever trigger is most dangerous to the opponent.

If Hidden Agenda Anya cheats face down, the opponent has to either accept their total as is, hoping you were bluffing or throw in one of their best cards to try stop you - losing 1 wound from Hidden Agenda - and it might still not be high enough to stop Anya hitting them, depending on what you cheat with. Even if it is high enough to stop you, you've traded up; your opponent has to commit a higher value card than you to dodge this, and they might just throw in a Severe when you only used a Weak.

Of course, every time they choose not to cheat, they risk the possibility that you committed a card only barely good enough to win the duel, netting you some relatively easy damage, a potentially powerful trigger and letting you mill away the top card of your deck if it's bad.

Anya is fragile by nature, so this style is not viable in every game, but the Emissary, especially with Yannic nearby, can more or less safeguard her. With a Scheme Marker down, Yannic let's the first Take The Hit essentially buy you two more Take The Hits. Speaking of the Emissary, it turns out Df7 with Take The Hit cheating face down is also pretty fun - if indeed you have the ss available for a second copy of Hidden Agenda

 

Corrupted Leylines Tech

 

Since you brought up Union Buster specifically, I will just briefly mention that it can be game changing on Corrupted Leylines against non-Guild factions (or Guild players foolish enough to not put Lead Lined Coat on their Lodestone runner).

If you go with Anya last, and your opponent has already activated their Lodestone Runner, she can yeet herself up to ~19" up the board with Bleeding Edge's Place trigger + Walk/Charge + Walk, ideally engaging/charging whichever model is last to activate, then use Union Buster to pull the Lodestone Runner away from the Leyline without a duel, and force them into her Hostile Work Environment aura, so that the opponent can't rescue them with another model. That's almost always 1VP they'll never get back, though you can't do this against Planted Roots / Laugh Off Lodestone Runners.

[RoivasO]

Thanks for all the help guys. I think I was definitely playing her all wrong. 

18 hours ago, Mindbadger said:

I either tend to use her as a mobile schemer or mobile assassin to take out a key piece or straggler on the flank.

 

4 hours ago, hydranixx said:

most of the time you want Anya1 to push enemies around pinging them for damage, or run Schemes, or pick off isolated models

From the sounds of it I should be playing her much more on the flanks as a Scheme runner/hunter and leave the middle of the board scrum to Sovereign, Corvis, and the Emissary. I tend to take Anya into very spread out pools so she should have a chance to really shine there, unless my opponent spreads out just as much! 

 

4 hours ago, hydranixx said:

I will just briefly mention that it can be game changing on Corrupted Leylines against non-Guild factions

I had thought of this, but hadn't quite realised how good Hostile Work Environment would be and stopping the opponent from getting the model back. I always found that Anya would be dead top of turn 2 or 3 so I needed to activate her first to get some use out of her, but if I keep her back a bit or off to the sides this could work much better! 

[hydranixx]

1 hour ago, RoivasO said:

I had thought of this, but hadn't quite realised how good Hostile Work Environment would be and stopping the opponent from getting the model back. I always found that Anya would be dead top of turn 2 or 3 so I needed to activate her first to get some use out of her, but if I keep her back a bit or off to the sides this could work much better! 

100% percent. She's fast enough that she can always hop in to deny a leyline one turn, then early next turn inflict some damage and hop out.

[esqulax]

So now that the models got spoiled a while ago, has anyone had any hands of experience with Yannic and the riflemen ? 

I was initially very quick to dismiss them, but looking at them again I see quite a lot of potential actually. Riflemen has a pretty solid attack and automatic ping damage is often very good, so Stand and Fire seems decent as well. 

Yannic looks mediocre at first, but Inginuity seems like it can get a lot of stuff done. If you have the high cards to spare, her gun can actually also do quite a lot of damage. 

[Jinn]

15 hours ago, esqulax said:

So now that the models got spoiled a while ago, has anyone had any hands of experience with Yannic and the riflemen ? 

I was initially very quick to dismiss them, but looking at them again I see quite a lot of potential actually. Riflemen has a pretty solid attack and automatic ping damage is often very good, so Stand and Fire seems decent as well. 

Yannic looks mediocre at first, but Inginuity seems like it can get a lot of stuff done. If you have the high cards to spare, her gun can actually also do quite a lot of damage. 

I have a lot of experience with Yannic! My main Outcast opponent brings her in almost every list (out of a pool of almost every Outcast model). She draws a lot of cards, and I still hate that Democratic Elections can cause unresisted damage so easily.

[RoivasO]

On 6/3/2022 at 7:11 AM, Jinn said:

My main Outcast opponent brings her in almost every list (out of a pool of almost every Outcast model).

Agreed! One of my regulars is a Outcasts player and they get much more work out of Yannik in Freikorps then I do in Syndicate. 

That said I tend to take her quite a lot. She's adds some ok ranged damage to an otherwise melee focused crew and being able to focus for a bonus is good in our models with lackluster bonus actions (Corvis and Sovereign in melee come to mind). 

I also quite like the Riflemen in Turf War. They can sit back and influence the board from a Turf marker and with hard to kill are deceptively tough with all the heals in Syndicate. 

[esqulax]

Thanks for the feedback. How does she work with Anya 2 btw? Can a model drop a scheme marker and then discard that marker to Yannics ability while summoning a drudge ? I am confused about the order since the drudge is summoned into base contact with the marker, but I am unsure if the marker is already discarded? 

[muraki]

1 hour ago, esqulax said:

Thanks for the feedback. How does she work with Anya 2 btw? Can a model drop a scheme marker and then discard that marker to Yannics ability while summoning a drudge ? I am confused about the order since the drudge is summoned into base contact with the marker, but I am unsure if the marker is already discarded? 

If you're saying 'can I drop a scheme + discard that scheme with ingenuity to summon a drudge' I would say no. As discarding a card is the cost to summon a drudge so there wouldn't be a marker to summon it next to anymore.

[Kogan Style]

On 6/2/2022 at 3:39 PM, esqulax said:

So now that the models got spoiled a while ago, has anyone had any hands of experience with Yannic and the riflemen ? 

I was initially very quick to dismiss them, but looking at them again I see quite a lot of potential actually. Riflemen has a pretty solid attack and automatic ping damage is often very good, so Stand and Fire seems decent as well. 

Yannic looks mediocre at first, but Inginuity seems like it can get a lot of stuff done. If you have the high cards to spare, her gun can actually also do quite a lot of damage. 

Yannic has gone from being a maybe include to a very good option for me. Some of the benefits she brings are:

• Giving Corvus Focus and card draw for a bonus action turn 1 (I don't find his bonus used much T1)
• Austrea drawing 3 cards at the cost of discarding 1 and a scheme marker
• Hopeful Prospect drawing 2 at the cost of a scheme marker 
• Easy access to healing via bonus action for minions and democratic elections

I've also had her in combat with a Fire Golem, hitting her trigger on her attack to push and stun it, then democratic elections to ping it for 2 damage and killing it. It is a useful combo to have in your back pocket. I do bring either the rifleman or the prospect, but feel like both is overkill. I like the rifleman cycling scheme markers on turn 1 before focusing sets him up, and the they provide is a small deterrent to charges which can add up with hazardous markers floating round the board. 

With Yannic around I like to include seekers in my crew as the heals mean I can inflict more ping damage where it might kill off a damaged model. Typically I'll include a Surveyor and a Lamplighter so that a heal triggers a geode creation (plus card draw) and a push into the geode and if Field of Steel is up then so much the better 😍Incidentally, the new Seeker versatile minion also helps here, being able to push the healed model a further time. 

Sadly the brawler has been used once but very unlikely to see further play.