RCT 13: Resser errata.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Red Chapel suffered from redesign right at the tail end of the open beta. Seamus got fixed in a very solid way at the tail end, but the crew as a whole just kinda fell apart. If they fix the crew it would take some finessing because you'd want the crew to synergies better inside itself, without adding to combos outside the keyword. Seamus doesn't get substantially better if his keyword crew works as well as or slightly better than the all stars. If you superpower the crew then you increase his power, and he, himself doesn't need a big boost. Sybelle and Bete are just my personal favorite topics because neither model has really been all that good in all editions of the game. 

[50 SS Enforcer]

I think bete gaining a WP targeting attack would fix her. Poisoned fate isn't great, paired knives needs to target WP, remove the + possibly add attuned so we can get the +2 rams. Scarlet temptation is great on paper, absolutely nothing in faction to take advantage of it. Personally, I'd love to see an obey on sybelle, but we have no examples of what an obey would look like on a 10 point model. Its stat 7 on 9 point models, but would be too strong with Scarlet temptation so stat 6 would be great, would need improved triggers or built in mask to match stone cost of model.

[Fetid Strumpet]

She used to have a obey type trigger on her whip from her upgrade in 2E. 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Bete Noire I find is super, super good if you can get corpses on the table. She is very good with Reva.

So if Redchapel had more corpse generation, she would be great in the crew. Though even then she is a good scheme runner. She needs Frenzied Charge so she can charge multiple times IMO.

I also think Scarlet Temptation is amazing, but for some reason Redchapel has less damaging willpower attacks than any other crew in faction. Both Reva and Molly benefit enormously from Scarlet Temptation for example.

[SEV]

Is Sybelle the worst 10 points model in the game (some could argue that she would be the worst 9 cost as well 😂)?

I'm not the most experienced player but each time I played against Seamus in a competitive setting, my opponents bring Bete... + her OOK pick, so she must be good enough... 

I think wyrd should try to buff models that don't see any table play, not models that seems to already be staple...

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'll respectfully disagree with Bete, but I will hedge my disagreement on mostly her performance in GG0. I had gotten some games of GG1 in before Covid hit, so it is entirely possible GG1 made her somewhat decent, though again from my limited experience I'd still disagree, though I'll certainly try her again extensively if I get more games in at some point. My main issue with her is that she brings one good thing to the table, Trail of Gore. I find when she's most useful, it's as a Model that rarely attacks and basically serves as an 8ss scheme marker destroyer. Which in certain applications is good, but 8 SS good, which also requires the bringing of specific other models to generate the resources for her to actually utilize her defensive mechanics reliably? I'm dubious that's really all that valuable. But I'm willing to take another fresh look to see if GG1 improved her.

[Mycellanious]

4 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I'll respectfully disagree with Bete, but I will hedge my disagreement on mostly her performance in GG0. I had gotten some games of GG1 in before Covid hit, so it is entirely possible GG1 made her somewhat decent, though again from my limited experience I'd still disagree, though I'll certainly try her again extensively if I get more games in at some point. My main issue with her is that she brings one good thing to the table, Trail of Gore. I find when she's most useful, it's as a Model that rarely attacks and basically serves as an 8ss scheme marker destroyer. Which in certain applications is good, but 8 SS good, which also requires the bringing of specific other models to generate the resources for her to actually utilize her defensive mechanics reliably? I'm dubious that's really all that valuable. But I'm willing to take another fresh look to see if GG1 improved her.

The difference for you two may be that the VWC has decided that Bete can use her Bonus Action to Charge even if she doesn't Unbury

[Fetid Strumpet]

?

Really? 

Was that just a joint interpretation decision to make a sub par model better, or what? Outside of the VWC doesn't the first non-italicized sentence prevent that from working, or have I just not been playing it incorrectly all this time?

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

?

Really? 

Was that just a joint interpretation decision to make a sub par model better, or what? Outside of the VWC doesn't the first non-italicized sentence prevent that from working, or have I just not been playing it incorrectly all this time?

The VWC interpretation is in line with the rules.

Rise again says it can be used while buried, but doesn't say it can ONLY be used when buried. By default, abilities can be used when not buried.

Though to be fair, I don't play her this way in casual play and still like her with Reva.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, sorry, you said the first non italicised sentence.

For that, bury effects are separate effects, so for example bury and heal 4 are two separate effects (and the heal 4 happens even if the bury fails).

Same logic here - the rest of the ability goes off even if the unbury fails, I think?

[Azahul]

I'm surprised it would be so controversial an interpretation to require a ruling, to be honest? The rulebook on Actions says to resolve effects in the order they are written, ignoring any effects that can't be resolved. How could a non-italicized piece of text prevent the action from resolving under that logic? You just ignore the first sentence, remove the corpse, and charge.

[Math Mathonwy]

I would also like to note that comparing Bete to Hinamatsu might not be the best way to go about it. I mean, Hinamatsu is quite bonkers and would probably be a strong consideration for inclusion into any crew in the game no matter the faction if it was possible. She is absolute cream of the crop in her role.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I would also like to note that comparing Bete to Hinamatsu might not be the best way to go about it. I mean, Hinamatsu is quite bonkers and would probably be a strong consideration for inclusion into any crew in the game no matter the faction if it was possible. She is absolute cream of the crop in her role.

And also have entirely different roles. Hinamatsu is a durable beater with some utility.

Bete is a mobile scheme runner with a fair bit of utility.

[SEV]

For rules interpretation Bete and Insidious madness have the same italic text. If you can use Disembodied voice when madness is unburied you can also use Rise again in the same way.

Edit : same whit undercover reporter. Also you can look at the trigger on Scion of the void for something that can me done only if the models (both of them in this case) are buried... So this seems clear cut to me.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'd disagree on both points, but honestly my time away has kinda mellowed my desire to really argue many points. If it actually works as mentioned, and thus far it looks like it, that does indeed make Bete a model to at least consider fairly frequently. 

Back to suggested errata. I have had suggestions for Mourners in the past and I had one or two other possible suggestions, just for conversation pieces.

The first and easiest, though it would have some big ramifications elsewhere, because they aren't the only one with the ability, would be to tweak Weeping Widow so that instead of requiring the Ruthless model to be in the aura, it requires the target of the ruthless model to be in the aura. Essentially if you have terror or manipulative and are close to the Mourner, Ruthless models, wherever they are, don't get to ignore your abilities. That would be the only change, as it would allow them to be a tech pick to help mitigate Ruthless abilities if that was something you were worried about. They'd personally be a strong consider for me going into TT given how often I run into Fuhatsu. 

The second more involved suggestion would be to remove Weeping Widow and replace it with an ability that says in a 6" aura, whenever a corpse marker is dropped within the aura, the Mourner gets to decide where it drops, following all the legal placement rules. This change I suggest because their Mourn the dead bonus action I never get much use out of because as the opponent chooses how their own markers drop when they die, they never position corpses in a position that you could capitalize on them as scheme markers. And trying to go the route where I put corpses in position to use as scheme markers is just less efficient or reliable than just hiring a scheme runner to do it the traditional way. Allowing her to make the choice would make that ability a little more useful. But it would also be useful with the additional second suggested change. Add an additional bonus action that is an inversion of the first. Add The Dead Mourn as a bonus action, which would let the Mourner, until the start phase, treat enemy scheme markers as corpses. That would allow mourners to be soft control pieces. If a mourner is standing in an area the opponent is likely to want to put schemes in, and she has the suggested ability up, they are going to need to shift her or kill her to be able to put their scheme marker where they specifically want, or she will shift them to a worse location, since they will be dropping a marker she considers a corpse. Additionally it would allow her to serve as a counter schemer, allowing models that use corpses to burn the opposing scheme markers in her area away and use them as fuel for their own abilities.

Additionally, and more importantly, it would allow counterplay. If the opponent has a marker near the center of the table for leave your mark, and Reva, for example, would love to use that marker as an attack node for ethereal reaping, the Reva player would have to activate the mourner, get her into position, use the ability, then wait for the opponent to get a chance to respond before Reva would get a chance to use it, which, if it was critical, the opposing player would get a chance to respond to. They could block LoS to the marker, kill or move the mourner, or do some other more impactful response elsewhere on the board before the Resser player could take advantage of it. 

I think it would make mourners still very situational hires, because you'd never hire one unless you reasonably thought the opponent was going to be dropping schemes, and I think they'd mostly be harassment pieces, since if their abilities mattered they would draw an inordinate amount of aggression down on their head, but you'd be basically paying 6 stones for an ability the forced your opponent to take them into account and deal with them, possibly ahead of other pieces in your arsenal.

Thoughts?

 

 

[Mycellanious]

Just fyi your proposed new Aura wouldnt work because the opponent could choose to Drop his corpse directly behind himself, so that when it Drops the Mourner never has LoS to it

[Fetid Strumpet]

Or directly under themselves, if I'm remembering LoS to markers directly under a model correctly.

I considered that. The ability would still allow her to serve as a positional harassment piece. If you have to get to a position to stop her from seeing it, it's still serving it's purpose of messing with marker placement. It means if you need your maker in a specific place she is near with the aura up, you have to spend more movement to get into a position where the marker still drop where you want, but be blocked from her sight at the time of the drop.

 Additionally it then makes more of the movement tricks in Red Chapel actually have an additional vector of synergy with her. Enemy model drops a marker behind themselves so Mourner with Aura up can't turn it into a corpse. Then Belles Lure, Doxies Take by the Hand, Sybelle's (Yes she's still bad) Pulled Here and There / Beckoning Call then can be used to get the model blocking LoS Marker off of it so Bete (apparently) can burn it for a charge, Seamus can eat it for Cause for Celebration, Dr. McMorning can use it as part of his cost to get a Flesh Construct on the board, or whatever other use for a corpse your crew might have.

Again, I'm not seriously considering anything is gonna happen with underperforming models, especially in a faction that as a whole seems to be doing ok. I just like the conversation.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Love the idea of the Ruthless aura just affecting allies within 6 instead of enemies, very good fix. Could even change it to 'other friendly models' so Mourner herself can't benefit.

For the corpse aura, just change it to if an enemy dies within 6" would drop a corpse marker, she controls the position of the drop. That way she doesn't need LOS to the corpse that doesn't hit the table.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Worded it the way I did because if the proposed change was adopted then if the enemy interacted to drop a scheme, if it was within the 3 inch aura then she could count it as a corpse and control its placement. If you worded the control aura to only when killed it wouldn't affect that aspect, which + or - to that is certainly debatable, for a totally non existent rule with little to no chance of actually being done, but considering I'd see them as a control piece I'd keep it the way I suggested.

Not sure it makes a huge difference to prevent her from removing the Ruthless if they target her. If you buy GST for her, that's 8 stones spent basically to help overcome ruthless, on a model that doesn't really do anything else, and still requires positional elements to get to work. For simplicity I'd just let it be a basic aura. That's probably the simplest and cleanest fix for her. She'd still, I think, rarely ever get taken in Red Chapel, but she'd have a defined role that would be situationally useful. And I think she'd get taken OOK with Jack fairly often? The question is, would changing Weeping Widow to that break the Pandora Bubble, since Pandora would get to have a model with that for free?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Mourners already synergise exceptionally well with GST because they drop a corpse and can blasphemous ritual turn 1, so that's noteworthy.

Also Scarlet Temptation can be a real issue combined with terrifying that you can't do anything about, but that's fine as scarlet temptation doesn't work unless you're in melee with them (so has the same issues original mourner aura has).

So overall you're probably right, seems fine xD

[Fetid Strumpet]

Fair, and in GG0 I experimented with that extensively. It's definitely something they'd need to consider if they did that change.

The issue is, if you want the 1st turn corpse BR combo, there are ways to get that that are better, cheaper, or both. And sure a negative on a terrifying duel you can't do anything about (sorta) is a downer, but the cost to the player with the Mourner is pretty significant to get that to work. Mourner has to take GST, likely be engaged with a model with Ruthless (since that's the issue we are talking about), and have another Red Chapel model with Scarlet Temptation engaged with the ruthless model, and be that way when the Ruthless model activates. Which is a 13 point combo, with positional elements required. I personally don't think it's an issue, but given that it could lead to an experience, while not broken, might not be enjoyable, it is something to think about.

[50 SS Enforcer]

Mourner front of card ability weeping widow proposed change.

Weeping Widow: Friendly models within 6 cannot have their Terrifying and Manipulative abilities ignored.

At the very least we all seem to agree on that.

[50 SS Enforcer]

I personally think there isn't enough reason to bring keyword models, we just need more WP attacks. Seamus does a great job of attacking DF and nothing in keyword really attempts at taking wounds with WP really, seems like Scarlet Temptation is only in keyword to help Terrifying. What we need is melee ranged WP attacks and something strong on Sybelle. 

My thoughts, give sybelle either Self Loathing or Obey, both fit thematically and would help the crew dramatically. Not sure about triggers, if Obey, harsh teachings maybe?

Bete needs more corpse generation in crew. Poisoned fate is cool, but not what bete wants to be doing 99% of the time. Remove for a 1 AP action to change her resist to WP on her daggers? trigger to take a swing, gain focus or card draw maybe? 

I would add some damaging abilities to the entire minion line in keyword that targeted WP and ways to drop corpses on the mourner or rotten belle.

I really love the look of this crew entirely in keyword, its so iconic. Would love if it played well too.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, 50 SS Enforcer said:

I personally think there isn't enough reason to bring keyword models, we just need more WP attacks. Seamus does a great job of attacking DF and nothing in keyword really attempts at taking wounds with WP really, seems like Scarlet Temptation is only in keyword to help Terrifying. What we need is melee ranged WP attacks and something strong on Sybelle. 

My thoughts, give sybelle either Self Loathing or Obey, both fit thematically and would help the crew dramatically. Not sure about triggers, if Obey, harsh teachings maybe?

Bete needs more corpse generation in crew. Poisoned fate is cool, but not what bete wants to be doing 99% of the time. Remove for a 1 AP action to change her resist to WP on her daggers? trigger to take a swing, gain focus or card draw maybe? 

I would add some damaging abilities to the entire minion line in keyword that targeted WP and ways to drop corpses on the mourner or rotten belle.

I really love the look of this crew entirely in keyword, its so iconic. Would love if it played well too.

100% agree this is the problem with the keyword. It's the worst keyword in the faction for attacking willpower xD

It's also why I like Belles, since a swarm of Belles all attacking willpower can be pretty potent.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yes and no. Yes in that it's a big reason why Red Chapel doesn't work synergistically because attacking WP wasn't their thing initially. Passing activations was. The best Red Chapel models right now don't even really care that Scarlet Seduction is on them, or don't even have it. They've set up the crew so that in theory they want you to be engaged by their mid to low range models so their bigger models can punish you, with lots of ways to give out distracted, and triggers to up damage for that, and abilities that make being engaged with Red Chapel model is debilitating. But noting actually rewards you much for doing it. Unexpected ferocity isn't reliable because it isn't baked into anything (which is why my suggested fix for Rotten Belles is a bonus action to give a Wild Hunt type aura for Rams against models engaged with them), and there are no punishing enough effects in keyword or easily accessible in faction to REALLY capitalize on the negative WP aura. I honestly don't think the entire keyword needs a redesign to work with that one ability. They just need little tweaks here and there to make them work more consistently.

Sybelle's specific issue is she is too expensive for a model with her level of abilities. I mean let's be realistic, they cut down significantly on the extra AP generating abilities since 1 and 2e, which is a good thing, but at its absolute most bedrock base, Malifaux is a game of resource management. You exchange wounds, AP, cards, and positioning for VP. Since the reduction in extra actions, the more you spend on a model the more it needs to bring to the table to justify it's cost. a 10SS model with 2 actions and no critically always useful bonus action, and no always active passive that massively justifies it's cost is a model that doesn't get taken. 

Easiest way to fix Sybelle, Give her some kind of control over her triggers. I have long been a proponent of giving her Tools for the Job, but I recently looked at Mr. Ngaatoro and Bully actually seems tailor made for her. She'd almost be worth it just with that, since her 10SS cost actually then becomes an asset allowing her to pick and choose the triggers she gets on her actions. Makes her whip useful, allows her to actually get Bump in the night off reliably since she could choose pulled here and there, makes her dmg line very scary and formidable, Makes Beckoning Call from a 10ss model worth taking as she could reliably take either trigger. I still think she'd need a little bit better bonus action to really be worth it, and I'd still suggest replacing either of her bonus actions with Lashing Tendrils though if she was given Bully I wouldn't put a trigger on it. But Bully, alone, could get her pretty close to being hirable.