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RCT 13: Resser errata.


Maniacal_cackle

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The Rider definitely needs to have that damage from Soulfire down to "not cheatable" or even have a :-flip

The reap trigger (that almost everyone underestimated at the beginning while I was saying it was amazing) seems to be a big cause of complain, but it doesn't seem to be that "overpowered" to me, specially compared to the ones on other riders, except maybe the Hooded.

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  • 2 weeks later...

If Dead Rider's ultimate specifically is the reason he's so powerful, I don't understand how people can complain when Pale Rider exists. Is it the extra SS on kills which brings it over the top?

Dead Rider does 2/3/4 damage ignoring H2K, at best on Turn 3

Pale Rider does 2 irreducible damage plus Burning +1 (so, effectively 3 damage Ignoring H2K) at end of Turn 2, and then can immediately do it again top of Turn 3 (For a total of 5 irreducible damage plus Burning +2)

Granted, to pull off this double pulse he needs 2x 6Rams in the span of 3 turns, but that's not completely unreasonable in the first place, Guild can take Lawyers with Tools For The Job, and even without the double a single pulse of 3 irreducible damage ignoring H2K which continues ticking damage for the rest of the game (or requires actions spent for condition removal) is already better a turn earlier.

I feel this is only reinforced by the prevalence of Armor, H2W, or low-Wd Summons/Totems in top/high tier crews: Transmortis, Riders, Daydreams, Stitched, Izamu, Ashigaru, Coryphee, Phiona, Shenlong's Students, Big Hat, Hoffman's entire crew, etc

Edit: I'm assuming the answer will just be "it's the whole package" which makes sense I guess.

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36 minutes ago, Whut said:

Edit: I'm assuming the answer will just be "it's the whole package" which makes sense I guess.

Yeah, Reap is by far the best attack trigger out of all the riders IMO (although Arcanists get close). So that's why the overall power is pretty high.

Plus lots of people makes mistakes and clump their models so Dead Rider can hit 5+ models with his ultimate, and then it seems really overpowered. And of course some pools force you to clump up, where it really is devastating. It is a very swing-y ability, sometimes just winning the game on the spot.

If it was as 3" pulse, it wouldn't win the game on the spot as often, but would still be worth using in heaps of scenarios.

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4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, Reap is by far the best attack trigger out of all the riders IMO (although Arcanists get close). So that's why the overall power is pretty high.

Plus lots of people makes mistakes and clump their models so Dead Rider can hit 5+ models with his ultimate, and then it seems really overpowered. And of course some pools force you to clump up, where it really is devastating. It is a very swing-y ability, sometimes just winning the game on the spot.

If it was as 3" pulse, it wouldn't win the game on the spot as often, but would still be worth using in heaps of scenarios.

I think placing the blame on people who "clump up" is a bit disingenuous. The area this ability affects is massive. Its a circle with about a 14" diameter, or about 12% of the entire board. Considering that diameter is larger than the vast majority of models are capable of moving in a single Activation, and its very easy to hit 3 models with it at a time, esspecially considering most models wants to be in the general vicinity of other models because of the range of beneficial Actions or Abilities. Trying to position 8 models on your half of the board with only having 2 be withing 14" of eachother at any time is difficult even on an empty board.

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7 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

I think placing the blame on people who "clump up" is a bit disingenuous. The area this ability affects is massive. Its a circle with about a 14" diameter, or about 12% of the entire board. Considering that diameter is larger than the vast majority of models are capable of moving in a single Activation, and its very easy to hit 3 models with it at a time, esspecially considering most models wants to be in the general vicinity of other models because of the range of beneficial Actions or Abilities. Trying to position 8 models on your half of the board with only having 2 be withing 14" of eachother at any time is difficult even on an empty board.

For the record, I think it should be reduced to a 3" pulse, but hitting 3 models off it isn't too big a deal. That's  a maximum of 12 damage (if you're cheating severes).

If you power up another model to the same degree, you can easily hit 12 damage - throw some focus and 3 severes to Teddy, and he can hit 18 damage somewhat consistently.

So I think there's a few elements to the Dead Rider:

  1. People misplay and don't mitigate the pulse to do 4-10 damage instead of 15-20.
  2. It is flashy and attention-grabbing, so more likely to be considered overpowered.
  3. In some situations it probably IS overtuned/overpowered (a game where people have to take the centre or lose is not going to go well against riders).

There's also an argument to be made that the defensive mechanic is too much. Their maneuverability is pretty good at keeping them alive already, so the defense trigger seems OTT. That said, it is necessary against shoot-y crews.

It is tricky, as the model is a LOT weaker against some crews, so that is a significant consideration in nerfs. If it is tuned down to average against all crews, and weak against others, it is a shit model.

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24 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For the record, I think it should be reduced to a 3" pulse, but hitting 3 models off it isn't too big a deal. That's  a maximum of 12 damage (if you're cheating severes).

If you power up another model to the same degree, you can easily hit 12 damage - throw some focus and 3 severes to Teddy, and he can hit 18 damage somewhat consistently.

So I think there's a few elements to the Dead Rider:

  1. People misplay and don't mitigate the pulse to do 4-10 damage instead of 15-20.
  2. It is flashy and attention-grabbing, so more likely to be considered overpowered.
  3. In some situations it probably IS overtuned/overpowered (a game where people have to take the centre or lose is not going to go well against riders).

There's also an argument to be made that the defensive mechanic is too much. Their maneuverability is pretty good at keeping them alive already, so the defense trigger seems OTT. That said, it is necessary against shoot-y crews.

It is tricky, as the model is a LOT weaker against some crews, so that is a significant consideration in nerfs. If it is tuned down to average against all crews, and weak against others, it is a shit model.

12 damage from an irresistable bonus action is what I would call quite a lot of damage. The analogy to Teddy doesnt quite pay off firstly because it is an opposed duel rather than a simple duel, and secondly stacking focus on a model is quite difficult. Your analogy requires Teddy to have been preset up with 3 AP worth of set up (3 Focus) and be in position to use 2 Actions attacking, where the Rider only requires waiting until turn 3 and a single bonus action worth of set up. I also dont think its fair to assume the player is consistently having to cheat for damage on the Rider, because a straight flip is more likely to hit mod / severe than weak. It cant be evaluated like a regular damage track. Im also curious to hear how you are "mitigating" the damage

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22 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

 Im also curious to hear how you are "mitigating" the damage

There's a variety of options (although again, I think overall a nerf is deserved)

  • Armor, shielded, and other things that reduce damage taken
  • Stunned condition (and to a lesser degree, slow or staggered to prevent him from getting in position).
  • Blocking LOS with terrain or models
  • Engaging the Dead Rider so he can't easily ride into position (he can't use ride with me and revel in the same turn).
  • Spreading out your models
  • Killing him before turn 3
  • Poking him hard enough he has to use tokens to survive instead of blowing you up.
  • Blocking the rider with terrain markers (coffins, pianos, ice pillars, etc)

I'm sure I've missed heaps.

It is a tricky balance, though. Riders are the second most expensive non-master models in the game, so they should be impactful. But not auto-picks.

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On 11/26/2020 at 6:25 PM, Mycellanious said:

12 damage from an irresistable bonus action is what I would call quite a lot of damage. The analogy to Teddy doesnt quite pay off firstly because it is an opposed duel rather than a simple duel, and secondly stacking focus on a model is quite difficult. Your analogy requires Teddy to have been preset up with 3 AP worth of set up (3 Focus) and be in position to use 2 Actions attacking, where the Rider only requires waiting until turn 3 and a single bonus action worth of set up. I also dont think its fair to assume the player is consistently having to cheat for damage on the Rider, because a straight flip is more likely to hit mod / severe than weak. It cant be evaluated like a regular damage track. Im also curious to hear how you are "mitigating" the damage

 

There is more setup than that, but I understand what you're saying. If you get caught on turn 3 or later with 5 models in the aura, that sounds more like a you problem, not a problem with the rider. Again, its an ability I don't use that often. In fact the last 4 games I've played with the rider I did it once and I caught 4 models in it, 2 had armor  and only one model went down. The model going down scored me a VP, but that model was almost dead anyways and the VP would have been scored regardless. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

 

There is more setup than that, but I understand what you're saying. If you get caught on turn 3 or later with 5 models in the aura, that sounds more like a you problem, not a problem with the rider. Again, its an ability I don't use that often. In fact the last 4 games I've played with the rider I did it once and I caught 4 models in it, 2 had armor  and only one model went down. The model going down scored me a VP, but that model was almost dead anyways and the VP would have been scored regardless. 

 

 

No offense, but you guys keep changing the numbers and exaggerating things. I agree, if you can hit 5 models with it at once you've made a significant mistake. But my point is that you dont need to hit FIVE models for the ability to be VERY good. Shockwaves and Pulses become efficient when they hit 2+ models at once. If the Rider can get 3 models in its pulse for example, its expected damage output is somewhere around 9-12 damage (because on a straight flip you are more likely to hit moderate and severe than weak). 9-12 damage from an irresistible, single Bonus Action is VERY good. Due to the size of the Rider's Pulse it is VERY difficult to put your crew into a position where less than THREE models are in range for it at any given time. 

When people say "don't clump up" that generally refers to things like Blasts (be 2" apart) or Shockwaves (be 3" apart). "Don't clump up" for the Rider is closer to meaning "be 14" apart," which in Malifaux is a MASSIVE distance equal to the longest ranges in the game and significantly more than the overwhelming majority of models are capable of moving in a single turn. So when people say "just don't clump up for the Rider," it really is quite difficult to do so because you only need to be moderately in the vicinity of each other to be "clumped up" for the Rider. I have attached an example of just how spread out your average crew of 8 models would need to be in order for the Rider to only hit two at once (although I think ironically you could be more efficient if you clumped up more and put two models together at a time)

I also do not really think "just take armored models" is a very viable strategy, since Armor is generally more oriented toward Keyword choice than individual model choice (I think Stunned, and to a lesser extent Shielded also fall into this category). Furthermore, unless your entire Crew is Armored, the Rider will be able to pick out the unarmored models with ease due to its extreme mobility. I understand that in your specific example, only 1 model actually died, but A) how much damage was done in total.  B) What did the Rider do with its other 2 Actions   C) What was the rest of the crew doing? Because even assuming it walked twice to get into position, doing 2 damage to 4 models for a total of 6 damage after the armor, then injuring all of them is MASSIVE for the rest of the Rider's Crew

Rider Auras.png

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Again, the ability typically isn't used that often by the more experienced players. Apply even a slight bit of pressure on the rider in early turns and fate tokens are spent on defense, not on offense. The rider is good, don't get it twisted, but the revel in death ability isn't the game breaking destroyer of worlds that you believe it is. 

In your own screenshot the rider can't see that many models with the building, and the forest. In your own example walking twice and doing 6 damage with 3 injured over 3 different models isn't game breaking. Lots of AP/resources go into making that happen. 

Revel in death isn't the best ability on the dead rider. Its reap, that and defense is where my crows go. 

 

 

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Yeah, as above, the only way to safely pull it off is if you do this:

  • Turn one move somewhere safe.
  • End of turn 2, move into position.
  • Start of turn 3 nuke (and possibly move away).

So that's three activations of an 11 stone to setup a pulse. It SHOULD do a ton of damage. Any other use, and you can stop the Dead Rider by smacking it around. It is pretty fragile if it isn't jumping through hoops to stay alive (it only has 9 health).

And keeping 11 stones of your crew out of the first 40% of the game is a huge risk against aggressive crews. So it really only works against defensive crews.

That said, it works SO well against defensive crews that it feels pretty imbalanced against say some Outcast crews (though I'm not sure about competitive Outcast crews). So on those grounds, I wouldn't object to seeing it reduced to a 3" pulse.

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9 minutes ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Again, the ability typically isn't used that often by the more experienced players. Apply even a slight bit of pressure on the rider in early turns and fate tokens are spent on defense, not on offense. The rider is good, don't get it twisted, but the revel in death ability isn't the game breaking destroyer of worlds that you believe it is. 

In your own screenshot the rider can't see that many models with the building, and the forest. In your own example walking twice and doing 6 damage with 3 injured over 3 different models isn't game breaking. Lots of AP/resources go into making that happen. 

Revel in death isn't the best ability on the dead rider. Its reap, that and defense is where my crows go. 

 

 

well actually the Rider can see the 3 closest models to its theoretical positions. I just picked the first listed map and placed my models, considering terrain, the distance they would need to be to not have 3 people within the aura at one time. I didnt ignore the terrain on that map, so the Rider's range was illegally ignoring the buildings. Walking twice and doing 6 (conservative) damage is in fact very close to game breaking for me, because of the sheer range of the ability. Doing 6 damage to targets around 18" away is absolutely massive, especially considering it was very likely your last activation turn 3, and will be your first activation turn 4. The Dead Rider by himself has single handedly taken on 30 ss of my crews, and consistently won. 

Even if you play conservatively with the Rider and keep it just barely outside your deployment zone, and therefore outside of your opponents threat ranges, its own threat range covers upwards of 60% of the board. If you are playing more aggressively and have the Rider near the center, in which case its threat range is actually the entire board. The point being, that it is VERY difficult to hide your models from its pulse, and also VERY difficult to spread out far enough to mitigate its effects. 

Rider Range.png

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14 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, as above, the only way to safely pull it off is if you do this:

  • Turn one move somewhere safe.
  • End of turn 2, move into position.
  • Start of turn 3 nuke (and possibly move away).

So that's three activations of an 11 stone to setup a pulse. It SHOULD do a ton of damage. Any other use, and you can stop the Dead Rider by smacking it around. It is pretty fragile if it isn't jumping through hoops to stay alive (it only has 9 health).

And keeping 11 stones of your crew out of the first 40% of the game is a huge risk against aggressive crews. So it really only works against defensive crews.

That said, it works SO well against defensive crews that it feels pretty imbalanced against say some Outcast crews (though I'm not sure about competitive Outcast crews). So on those grounds, I wouldn't object to seeing it reduced to a 3" pulse.

Well its not exactly wasting those first few activations right. Most models no matter their cost Walk and Concentrate Turn 1 anyway. Riders actually are more efficient Turn 1 than most since they typically Ride With Me a model up the board, then Walk, then Concentrate. So its Turn 1 is far from wasted. Turn 2 is absolutely the weakest Turn for Rider's no disagreement here, although this is both true of all the Rider's and even still the Dead Rider serves as a fantastic deterrent, since if you cross the centerline the Dead Rider can still output significant damage with its Mele attack while staying relatively safe. And since Turn 2 is the turn you start scoring, having a Mv 7, Min 3 beater is in itself a great denial piece. But I definitely agree, Rider's aren't really worth their stones Turn 2. I will even say that in games with the Dead Rider I usually take the lead Turn 2. The problem is that the game isn't decided on Turn 2, and as soon as the Rider Activates Turn 3, the game is generally decided. It's Activation Turn 3 just consistently massively swings the game state in its favor single handedly, and there isn't all that much that can be done to mitigate it. The Pale Rider is quite good and reliable but its expected output is significantly lower. The Hooded Rider has a higher potential, but its not nearly as reliable, for about the same expected output. The Dead Rider is so good, because it both has a very high expected damage output, and very high reliability to output that damage. 

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I've never had the dead rider played against me where the revel in death "ultimate" was relevant. I've faced the dead rider 4-5 times in the last month, 2 of those it was dead early/mid turn 3 and it couldn't get the revel off because I put enough hits into it to force fate tokens on defense. Doesn't take much to really scare the rider. It only has 9 wounds, and if you want to play hide and seek with your rider, go for it. 

I'd rather find a key piece on the table turn 2, reap it 4-6 inches into another model and kill it. The last thing I'm worried about is spending time and energy setting up a revel in death on turn 3-5 and most of the time my rider doesn't make it to turn 5 anyways. I'll reap a beater into a solo position away from the fight after the rider has already helped kill a piece of two then I'll sacrifice it to absorb AP or just score a quick point or two and then it dies because it did its job and I no longer care. 

Mech rider can just solo so many schemes and it can do it turn 2 its hands down the best rider. Again, revel in death isn't even the best ability on the dead rider, which continues to baffle me when I hear it complained about. 

 

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4 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

I've never had the dead rider played against me where the revel in death "ultimate" was relevant. I've faced the dead rider 4-5 times in the last month, 2 of those it was dead early/mid turn 3 and it couldn't get the revel off because I put enough hits into it to force fate tokens on defense. Doesn't take much to really scare the rider. It only has 9 wounds, and if you want to play hide and seek with your rider, go for it. 

I'd rather find a key piece on the table turn 2, reap it 4-6 inches into another model and kill it. The last thing I'm worried about is spending time and energy setting up a revel in death on turn 3-5 and most of the time my rider doesn't make it to turn 5 anyways. I'll reap a beater into a solo position away from the fight after the rider has already helped kill a piece of two then I'll sacrifice it to absorb AP or just score a quick point or two and then it dies because it did its job and I no longer care. 

Mech rider can just solo so many schemes and it can do it turn 2 its hands down the best rider. Again, revel in death isn't even the best ability on the dead rider, which continues to baffle me when I hear it complained about. 

 

Ironically, this is why I would rather just have his revel nerfed than anything else changed about him.

Changing other things could break the model. Tinkering with his ultimate will probably be fine.

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If its considered a misplay to let the Rider pulse hit more than three models, then the effect of the Rider is absolutely massive.

Forcing the opponent to spread out when they don't want to is huge. Positioning is one of the most fundamental aspects of Malifaux and I'm not sure that everyone here accurately appreciates the impact of a single model that can, merely by existing, force the opponent to compromise massively in that department.

There are multiple crews that rely on Auras and other such buffs that require clumping up and if you can stop that by keeping your Rider safe and ready, then that's 11 SS well spent alone - not to mention the other utility that the Rider brings.

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On 11/30/2020 at 6:31 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

If its considered a misplay to let the Rider pulse hit more than three models, then the effect of the Rider is absolutely massive.

Forcing the opponent to spread out when they don't want to is huge. Positioning is one of the most fundamental aspects of Malifaux and I'm not sure that everyone here accurately appreciates the impact of a single model that can, merely by existing, force the opponent to compromise massively in that department.

There are multiple crews that rely on Auras and other such buffs that require clumping up and if you can stop that by keeping your Rider safe and ready, then that's 11 SS well spent alone - not to mention the other utility that the Rider brings.

You Just described every model or crew that does blast, shockwave, pulse, etc damage in the game, and/or anything else that resolves around positioning. 

 

Please just nerf it wyrd so this conversation ends. Hell, destroy it and give the dead rider 2 more wounds. 

 

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7 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

You Just described every model or crew that does blast, shockwave, pulse, etc damage in the game, and/or anything else that resolves around positioning. 

There aren't many other AoE effects that do a similar amount of damage on an area of even remotely similar size and without any resist. These nuances are what makes the effect extraordinary and why it's being discussed here. No one is asking for a nerf for Wong's shockwaves.

7 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Please just nerf it wyrd so this conversation ends. Hell, destroy it and give the dead rider 2 more wounds. 

You can just ignore this conversation if it bothers you, you know.

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  • 3 months later...
12 minutes ago, Speedguyjp said:

Coming up for air after a weird last 5 months. Played my first game of malifaux in a long time this weekend. Needed it. Decided to jump on the forum today and started back with this topic. A good read to get back into the hobby. Thanks!

Yay, glad the old threads are getting some use as well :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just did my first game in over a year over the weekend too, virtual though. For fun I'll toss my two cents in on The Red Chapel keyword, though honestly I'm doubtful anything will happen with them.

Seamus and CCK are fine. I would not change red chapel killer to give dmg. While it would be more useful Seamus as a master is pretty strong, and really doesn't need a personal buff. Jumping through hoops to get the bigger dmg is fine. Changes to his crew I think are warranted, just to make bringing those models more viable than the hire All Stars all the time as currently formulated. Thus I'd focus changes on making the crew more consistent with each other but make sure those changes don't interact outside the keyword, to prevent increasing the overall power of a Seamus lead crew.

Doxies are fine.

Sybelle, awful. Compare her weapon to the new explorer electro whip weapon, and the cost of said model. Compare Sybelle to the Malisaurus Rex which are ostensibly doing the same job of beater plus crew support, and she's just criminally over costed. Toshiro does a better job as secondary beater with primary crew support better than Sybelle does, with Sybelle's own minions. Honestly I've just swapped out Sybelle for Toshiro in lists designed to specifically synergies with her and he still does the job better.

Proposed fixes: Drop her cost to 7 and wounds to 9. Or Remove the minion restriction from Bump in the Night, Give her Tools for the Job, and replace I've got your back with Lashing Tendrils with the Rip and Tear Trigger.

Bete: Compare to Hinamatsu, granted she's 1 stone more, but still, similar roles, similar survivability, much better effect for Hinamatsu than 1 stone would indicate. Bete should probably be less of a dedicated killer since she is a tiny bit more survivable, but my biggest problem with Bete Noire has been reliability. You pay 8 stones for a model that hits about as hard as a 6 stone model when she pops up she doesn't often reliably get her bonus charge action, and you don't get to control her positioning as well as you want. My proposed fix Give her Mobile Warrior and she's probably fine. I'd personally also bake a mask into her attack, though that would need testing. 

Belles: I think they are pretty bad, I've heard some people really like them. Possibly they are just destined to not be very good this edition dependent on what the GG document says. I wouldn't honestly change them too much. My suggested fix to just give them a tiny bit more crew synergy would be to give them a bonus action that is similar to wild hunt in that anytime a model with the red chapel keyword targets a model within 1" of the Belle they can add a ram to their action. This would allow the Belles to function as set up pieces, they go in, lure models to them and then the rest of the crew gets to use their attack triggers reliably as long as they are close to the belle. And such a change is balanced by activation order requirements. Belle would have to go before the beaters, activate the ability, and then stay alive to utilize it. We all know that isn't always super feasible in mid turns where you often need your critical beater to go early. As a note I'm note just a malisaurus fanboy, this was my suggested change to belles long before he came out, I just think its a good bit of design for internal crew synergy.

Mourners: The problem with them is that Grave Robbers do their ostensible job for the same cost. At least from a red chapel perspective, that don't actually do anything relevant to winning a game. They don't fight, or scheme well. They don't support the crew well. I don't honestly know how I'd solve the issue with them. The only unique thing about them is the Anti-Ruthless ability, which is a fine counter pick option that could give them legs, but it's too limited to be of much use. If I was forced to pick something I'd increase the range to LoS on Weeping widow. 

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Piggybacking on the Redchapel subject.

Seamus games seem to be mostly out of keyword. Madam Sybelle and bete arn't going to be hired. 

Mourners only hired if I need to turn off ruthless, otherwise a waste of points.

Belles I wish were a little more tanky, they die fast and pounce isnt as good this edition, rare hire, I usually use high mobility instead of lures as stat 6 is meh on a lure without a great trigger (and an opposed duel vs just moving fast). Ressers used to be known for lure, now its neverborn for sure.

Dead doxy are ok, sometimes hire, nothing special.

I'd also like to see redchapel be something other than a OOK and versatile picks. Honestly a new model might be needed to tie it together? Scarlet temptation is nice, just nothing in the crew really uses that negative to remove models, its just kinda annoying. Bete or sybelle need an attack action that targets WP.

I would give stunned over distracted for the belle lure. Remove distracted from crew, remove unexpected ferocity from crew, useless text and never used. Its a hassle to get off and suit heavy condition for +2 damage on another duel that requires another specific suit. Clunky as hell, just hire better damage. Either remove the distracted or add it to front of card abilities for incidental distracted (fail a WP duel within 6 aura of sybelle and gain distracted? just an example find something better than that).

my 2 cents worth of text.

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