Malifaux's superior Spymaster

[Maniacal_cackle]

10 minutes ago, Wakefield said:

Malifaux 3ed is remarkably balanced.

I agree at the casual level, but if you play at a competitive, WAAC level (like Plaag does), there's like 10 masters that are actually competitively viable is a common argument.

But Malifaux is extremely skill-based. A strong player will beat a weak player with basically any master matchup, pretty much everytime.

[Wakefield]

8 hours ago, Plaag said:

lol, u never played against normal somer, dreamer, ophelia, shenlong, colette, dashel-they are imbalanced

I get it. You're better than me. I won't post anymore or waste my time trying to play a Master that isn't worth it. 

[touchdown]

On 11/15/2020 at 1:35 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

I know nothing about Youko, but one thing that stands out is she is an obey master that can't obey her own models? That seems disappointing. Half the point of having obey in your crew is being able to get actions out of your models while they're not activated.

Her discard/draw engine seems super sweet. I'm not sure how she forces too many discards though (for Blackmail, what's to stop the person from declining to discard cards? All you get out of it is a single action, and you've presumably not taken anything where the bonus action really matters because you're against Youko).

Lets take a normal turn 2 game situation. Youko has to walk once then can Blackmail twice. First she hits you with Backroom Dealings and forces 2 card discard. Now you have 3 cards in hand. They're probably quite dear to you, so you will not discard them for Blackmail. What does Youko get? 4 (!) pass tokens, which means total activation control, and some spares for leverage if you want, and 2 actions where your beaters probably charge backwards out of position and hit your own models.

If you're taking models with no potentially dangerous bonus actions, isn't that already a form of control? I mean it seems like a lot of what Youko does happens before the game starts. No double-edged bonuses. 5 card hands. Either have to plan to score schemes late or give up activation control starting on turn 3.

I will say, it feels like her crew could use a model with Hostile Work Environment, or something that prevents a 2 SS Bayou Gremlin from undoing a master AP with an assist.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, Wakefield said:

I get it. You're better than me. I won't post anymore or waste my time trying to play a Master that isn't worth it. 

If it helps, Plaag kept telling me Ressers were bad, so I played him and beat him.

He is strongly opinionated on the forums, but is nice in person/over discord. If he isn't your cup of tea, I recommend just ignoring him. Plenty of other helpful people

[NoisyAssassin]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If it helps... If he isn't your cup of tea, I recommend just ignoring him. Plenty of other helpful people

Not really. He's honestly pretty much single-handedly turning this into one of the most unwelcoming gaming community spaces I've ever been a part of.

[Maogrim]

6 hours ago, NoisyAssassin said:

Not really. He's honestly pretty much single-handedly turning this into one of the most unwelcoming gaming community spaces I've ever been a part of.

I needed to get used to it as well. At a first glimpse it seems like he thinks that 75% of models in the game are unplayable garbage and about 10% unbalanced and near broken. 

I personally would also appreciate if there was a little more imput on what's cool and fun, but I guess Plaag's analysis can be pretty helpful if you absolutely positively want to play what's best in terms of competetiveness, and nothing else.

It probably doesn't help that English isn't his first language and sentences are kept rather short (with all due respect).

 

[Assdex]

11 hours ago, touchdown said:

Lets take a normal turn 2 game situation. Youko has to walk once then can Blackmail twice. First she hits you with Backroom Dealings and forces 2 card discard. Now you have 3 cards in hand. They're probably quite dear to you, so you will not discard them for Blackmail. What does Youko get? 4 (!) pass tokens, which means total activation control, and some spares for leverage if you want, and 2 actions where your beaters probably charge backwards out of position and hit your own models.

If you're taking models with no potentially dangerous bonus actions, isn't that already a form of control? I mean it seems like a lot of what Youko does happens before the game starts. No double-edged bonuses. 5 card hands. Either have to plan to score schemes late or give up activation control starting on turn 3.

I will say, it feels like her crew could use a model with Hostile Work Environment, or something that prevents a 2 SS Bayou Gremlin from undoing a master AP with an assist.

But that not so normal . Let be honest opponent got not 5 card but -1. A lot of my opponent pick model with reasuvar.

U most of time stone for bonus to discard .

U can miss that or got take the hit .

I agree with u but its happening in brilliant situation. 

And i don't say about consiling, los terrifying.

 

 

[Regelridderen]

5 hours ago, Maogrim said:

I needed to get used to it as well. At a first glimpse it seems like he thinks that 75% of models in the game are unplayable garbage and about 10% unbalanced and near broken. 

I personally would also appreciate if there was a little more imput on what's cool and fun, but I guess Plaag's analysis can be pretty helpful if you absolutely positively want to play what's best in terms of competetiveness, and nothing else.

It probably doesn't help that English isn't his first language and sentences are kept rather short (with all due respect).

 

It's rather that @Plaag's input is generally useless to the conversation.

E.g. comparing Daw and Youko is pointless, when there is no way there'll ever be a choice between the two – one being Ressur/Outcast the other 88Thunders.

[Jesy Blue]

57 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

It's rather that @Plaag's input is generally useless to the conversation.

E.g. comparing Daw and Youko is pointless, when there is no way there'll ever be a choice between the two – one being Ressur/Outcast the other 88Thunders.

We're up to 88 Thunders now?  The numbers just keep going up up up....

 

[Maogrim]

6 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

We're up to 88 Thunders now?  The numbers just keep going up up up....

 

Can never have too many thunders in Thunders, can you?!

As a German I get a bit uncomfortable with the number 88 though...Guess I'll stick to 10!

Wait, that might have a been a 'Crazy 88' reference, in which case I'd be fine with it.

[Regelridderen]

5 hours ago, Maogrim said:

Can never have too many thunders in Thunders, can you?!

As a German I get a bit uncomfortable with the number 88 though...Guess I'll stick to 10!

Wait, that might have a been a 'Crazy 88' reference, in which case I'd be fine with it.

It was crazy 88 - what’s the problem with 88 in germany?

[SEV]

8 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

It was crazy 88 - what’s the problem with 88 in germany?

It's a white supremacist thing (meaning heil you know who). 

[Maogrim]

19 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

It was crazy 88 - what’s the problem with 88 in germany?

 

9 minutes ago, SEV said:

It's a white supremacist thing (meaning heil you know who). 

Yes, exactly. H is the 8th letter in the alphabet, so Nazis and other white supremacy scumbags use it as code for 'Heil *insert German chancelor and mass murderer 1933-1945*'. There is, for example, a group of radical racists calling themselves 'Combat 88'. That code is used by Nazis in the US as well, as far as I'm aware.

[Regelridderen]

26 minutes ago, Maogrim said:

 

Yes, exactly. H is the 8th letter in the alphabet, so Nazis and other white supremacy scumbags use it as code for 'Heil *insert German chancelor and mass murderer 1933-1945*'. There is, for example, a group of radical racists calling themselves 'Combat 88'. That code is used by Nazis in the US as well, as far as I'm aware.

So its a dyslexic abbreviation for “I’m with stoopid”.

Got it.

[regleant]

Was not aware of the Nazi background. I do know that 8 is a lucky number in China, to the extent that you have to pay $$ to have 8's in your license plate or phone number. Also, 88 used to be slang for "bye bye" in SMS messages. Since this is Ten Thunders, I say bring on the 8's!

[Maogrim]

23 minutes ago, regleant said:

Was not aware of the Nazi background. I do know that 8 is a lucky number in China, to the extent that you have to pay $$ to have 8's in your license plate or phone number. Also, 88 used to be slang for "bye bye" in SMS messages. Since this is Ten Thunders, I say bring on the 8's!

Heard that in my Chinese classes as well and I agree wholeheartedly. :)

I wouldn't have suspected Nazis in here anyway, but that was strangely the first thing that popped up in my mind.

[Jesy Blue]

1 hour ago, regleant said:

Was not aware of the Nazi background. I do know that 8 is a lucky number in China, to the extent that you have to pay $$ to have 8's in your license plate or phone number. Also, 88 used to be slang for "bye bye" in SMS messages. Since this is Ten Thunders, I say bring on the 8's!

That's why the Beijing Olympics started on August 8th, 2008 (8/8/08)!

[Maniacal_cackle]

On 11/17/2020 at 6:41 AM, touchdown said:

Lets take a normal turn 2 game situation. Youko has to walk once then can Blackmail twice. First she hits you with Backroom Dealings and forces 2 card discard. Now you have 3 cards in hand. They're probably quite dear to you, so you will not discard them for Blackmail. What does Youko get? 4 (!) pass tokens, which means total activation control, and some spares for leverage if you want, and 2 actions where your beaters probably charge backwards out of position and hit your own models.

If you're taking models with no potentially dangerous bonus actions, isn't that already a form of control? I mean it seems like a lot of what Youko does happens before the game starts. No double-edged bonuses. 5 card hands. Either have to plan to score schemes late or give up activation control starting on turn 3.

I will say, it feels like her crew could use a model with Hostile Work Environment, or something that prevents a 2 SS Bayou Gremlin from undoing a master AP with an assist.

What a great breakdown. She seems super fun to play!

[Jinn]

19 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

E.g. comparing Daw and Youko is pointless, when there is no way there'll ever be a choice between the two – one being Ressur/Outcast the other 88Thunders.

I don't think it's unreasonable to compare the power level of two Masters from different factions. For example, last edition (where Master power level was mostly solved) you could easily compare Nicodem to Ironsides and tell that they weren't on the same level.

It seems pretty absurd to say that two Masters shouldn't be compared given the point of the game is a competition between two crews to score the most points. Who cares if they don't share a faction, some crews are better at scoring than others.

I don't know if I've simply missed the point you're making or if I have a completely different view of balance than you.

[Regelridderen]

20 minutes ago, Jinn said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to compare the power level of two Masters from different factions. For example, last edition (where Master power level was mostly solved) you could easily compare Nicodem to Ironsides and tell that they weren't on the same level.

It seems pretty absurd to say that two Masters shouldn't be compared given the point of the game is a competition between two crews to score the most points. Who cares if they don't share a faction, some crews are better at scoring than others.

I don't know if I've simply missed the point you're making or if I have a completely different view of balance than you.

You go to a tournament. 

Before that you make the choice, Thunders or Ressurs?

So you’ll never end up in a choice between the two.

-

The only function of doing so, is to give players an excuse to whine about balance, rather than focus on the interesting and constructive question : how do I apply the Qi and Gong on the tabletop. 

Q&G rules won’t change from whining, at best Thunders can hope for a general nerf to get in line with Guild. That’s when you can talk ‘balance’. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

There's also the part where they might be good at different things.

For example, if crew A is good at strategies 1, 2, 3, and crew B is only good at strategy 4... Then crew B may be superior in a given faction, even though crew A is overall a better crew.

So if you do want to compare, you have to take the whole faction as a context (i.e., might be able to claim "ten thunders would be stronger with Jack Daw swapped for Youko because Jack Daw fills a gap"). Which at least is an interesting hypothetical.

[Assdex]

10 hours ago, Jinn said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to compare the power level of two Masters from different factions. For example, last edition (where Master power level was mostly solved) you could easily compare Nicodem to Ironsides and tell that they weren't on the same level.

It seems pretty absurd to say that two Masters shouldn't be compared given the point of the game is a competition between two crews to score the most points. Who cares if they don't share a faction, some crews are better at scoring than others.

I don't know if I've simply missed the point you're making or if I have a completely different view of balance than you.

We can compare pickreit them . Nobody pick youko on big tournament , so its some real stuff. 

On vassal world cup nobody play youko and lynch .