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Malifaux's superior Spymaster


Maogrim

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3 hours ago, Duront said:

Youko is similar to Tara in 2nd edition. Tara had to jump through a lot hoops and actions to get somewhere not very special. Some people would win tournaments because they have unlocked a specific trick, but the vast majority of players lost their games and had a bad game play experience with her. Youko will be in the same position, i think, for 3e, some people will do good with her but most players should skip her as she will most likely lead to frustration.

Also we have lots of evidence that Wyrd will leave weak models and masters alone, as they have other problems to worry about; like creating an entire new faction.

Lol . Where is a lot of action of youko ?

She 1 master in whole game without tactical action.

She had no damage , not good in control, low mobility , low tanky . What option she is good ? 

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Maybe I was mistaken when labeling Nexus as a spy master, but that was kinda the vibe I got when reading terms on her card like "Omnipresent Influence", "Citizens of Malifaux", "Eyes and Ears"...I guess we'll see.

The one thing Youko seems to be good at is forcing the enemy to discard. But judging by what experienced players like Assdex or Plaag contribute I assume other masters do the same thing better but from further away or combined with other things they do.

Is it realistic to hope that Youko herself might get an overhaul in this edition?

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9 minutes ago, Maogrim said:

Maybe I was mistaken when labeling Nexus as a spy master, but that was kinda the vibe I got when reading terms on her card like "Omnipresent Influence", "Citizens of Malifaux", "Eyes and Ears"...I guess we'll see.

The one thing Youko seems to be good at is forcing the enemy to discard. But judging by what experienced players like Assdex or Plaag contribute I assume other masters do the same thing better but from further away or combined with other things they do.

Is it realistic to hope that Youko herself might get an overhaul in this edition?

There will be errata. It may or may not affect Youko.

There will alos be new models that may well make the unique things Youko does more powerful. (for example if she gets a model with execute, the hand size and card discrading things she has become more powerful). 

 

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12 minutes ago, Adran said:

There will be errata. It may or may not affect Youko.

There will alos be new models that may well make the unique things Youko does more powerful. (for example if she gets a model with execute, the hand size and card discrading things she has become more powerful). 

 

It will be great . I played her with misaki charm and desper it work but need resorses and sometimes direct dmg better. If she got minions or hench with decapitate it will be great

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Youko is weak overall with middling defense tech because she has to be. She fundamentally plays the game differently from other people. Pre nerf Tara shows that activation manipulation is key to scoring when you want how you want to and Leverage does that.  Cody had insane plays late in turns because he could pick and choose where and when Tara and the Nothing Beast could activate. Same theory different execution. If your opponent tries to scheme late to counter it then instead Youko has a bonus action you can stone for to force two discards at random. Bill can remover scheme markers non linearly or deal irreducible damage. 

She has short range and no tactical actions because she needs to be or else she's a range 10 model who just tells your opponent that they cannot guarantee anything and cheating is entirely off the table. They have to hope flips go in their favor and they no longer can easily meet TNs. Youko is fine. I love playing her and exploring her weird interactions and tech. I have never felt that Miss Hamasaki is underpowered or needs a massive buff. And I've played her for a LOT of games now. In my opinion she fills a niche against Summoners and crews that need discards to function. She's not as optimal in all scenarios as, say, McCabe or old Shenlong, but she is a fun and interesting take on the design space. 

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On 10/25/2020 at 9:22 PM, Azahul said:

They pretty clearly have templates for Obey-style actions,

So to give a bit of history re: Youko during the beta. For awhile her trigger didn't say "Chosen and controlled by this model". It actually took me mentioning it to the developers at adepticon to get it changed because a forum post in a sea of forum posts isn't always enough. So Youko's trigger definitively did use an Obey template. This was also very close to the end of the open beta.

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1 hour ago, Wakefield said:

Youko is weak overall with middling defense tech because she has to be. She fundamentally plays the game differently from other people. Pre nerf Tara shows that activation manipulation is key to scoring when you want how you want to and Leverage does that.  Cody had insane plays late in turns because he could pick and choose where and when Tara and the Nothing Beast could activate. Same theory different execution. If your opponent tries to scheme late to counter it then instead Youko has a bonus action you can stone for to force two discards at random. Bill can remover scheme markers non linearly or deal irreducible damage. 

She has short range and no tactical actions because she needs to be or else she's a range 10 model who just tells your opponent that they cannot guarantee anything and cheating is entirely off the table. They have to hope flips go in their favor and they no longer can easily meet TNs. Youko is fine. I love playing her and exploring her weird interactions and tech. I have never felt that Miss Hamasaki is underpowered or needs a massive buff. And I've played her for a LOT of games now. In my opinion she fills a niche against Summoners and crews that need discards to function. She's not as optimal in all scenarios as, say, McCabe or old Shenlong, but she is a fun and interesting take on the design space. 

i would like to know what u will say abt jack, because he makes the same as youko(discard, execute) but much more better)

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49 minutes ago, Wakefield said:

Youko is weak overall with middling defense tech because she has to be. She fundamentally plays the game differently from other people. Pre nerf Tara shows that activation manipulation is key to scoring when you want how you want to and Leverage does that.  Cody had insane plays late in turns because he could pick and choose where and when Tara and the Nothing Beast could activate. Same theory different execution. If your opponent tries to scheme late to counter it then instead Youko has a bonus action you can stone for to force two discards at random. Bill can remover scheme markers non linearly or deal irreducible damage. 

She has short range and no tactical actions because she needs to be or else she's a range 10 model who just tells your opponent that they cannot guarantee anything and cheating is entirely off the table. They have to hope flips go in their favor and they no longer can easily meet TNs. Youko is fine. I love playing her and exploring her weird interactions and tech. I have never felt that Miss Hamasaki is underpowered or needs a massive buff. And I've played her for a LOT of games now. In my opinion she fills a niche against Summoners and crews that need discards to function. She's not as optimal in all scenarios as, say, McCabe or old Shenlong, but she is a fun and interesting take on the design space. 

1st i leverage work when ur opp score something. In my game i prefer interpretation opponent score.

2 bill good model deal good dmg but not great . We got more options for dmg .

3 5df serena 10hp if enemy beater focus her she really dead . She is not tanky.

4 any masters need tactical action.cuz it another option for game on it.

5 sorry bad English what do u mean about cheating , not correct understand that.

6 if she was good someone pick her. I saw nobody play her on world cup

 

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3 hours ago, Assdex said:

1st i leverage work when ur opp score something. In my game i prefer interpretation opponent score.

2 bill good model deal good dmg but not great . We got more options for dmg .

3 5df serena 10hp if enemy beater focus her she really dead . She is not tanky.

4 any masters need tactical action.cuz it another option for game on it.

5 sorry bad English what do u mean about cheating , not correct understand that.

6 if she was good someone pick her. I saw nobody play her on world cup

 

1) It also works with other pass tokens that you get from other sources. Summoned enemy models, Blackmail, or her totem. Additionally, yes, preventing your opponent from scoring is one of the major points of the game, however, if your opponent is deliberately delaying their scoring until turn 4 or 5 they're just opening themselves up for you to stop them or potentially telegraphing their schemes to allow your hitters to snipe folks out.

2) Bill is a tech piece not a beater. Min 3 is solid, scheme removal is solid, his mobility is top notch because of his triggers and his Heroic Intervention as well as conditional fast. He's not there to wipe things out, he's there to cause damage, protect Youko, and conditionally remove schemes.

3) Youko is soft, yes, however, your opponent will often have very limited resources in their hand to cheat fate, or be unable to cheat fate at all. If they tend to focus, use Riddles in the Dark to stack distracted on their beaters and force enemies to use precious actions to either assist it off, or they're at a double negative to swing on Youko. The only way they're getting around that is by focus, having an inbuilt positive, or focus and stoning. She can also always stone and tends to run heavy on cache because of a large number of triggers that she needs.

4) A lack of tactical actions is a problem, but not having a tactical action doesn't immediately make her unplayable.

5) Youko is the single highest 'discard a card' model in the game. From her Bonus which forces up to two discards if your opponent has not revealed a scheme, which also gives you knowledge of your opponent's hand, to Blackmail allowing you to either gain two pass tokens which let you add accuracy or gain activation advantage, or even slip in an Obey, she can single handedly drain someone's hand and remove their ability to Cheat Fate and move cards from their hand into the Conflict. Also, if you're at a negative, you cannot Cheat Fate, which means even one or two distracted on a target can easily make your opponent rely just on the flip.

6) She's a brand new Master in a meta that's been stifled by Coronavirus. Folks can't really get together reliably and play. Her models also aren't all out yet. Meta is also dependent on region. I've gotten some great wins with her locally. I feel like I most of the time have tools in her kit to at least tie if not win any matchup I go into and I feel she's a fun, solid Master to play with. Is she the ideal pick in every scenario? Absolutely not. But that's why I play Faux. I counter pick or play Masters whom are good into certain factions or pools. If I know my opponent likes summoners, I'll reach for Youko to drain their hand and try to force them into losing that high card to get the clutch summon out. If it's a scheme heavy pool or something like Corrupted Ley Lines, I'll declare Youko to control where my opponent's Lodestone carrier is. She's not a generalist like Lucas McCabe or Shenlong or Dreamer.

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3 hours ago, Plaag said:

i would like to know what u will say abt jack, because he makes the same as youko(discard, execute) but much more better)

Yeah, Jack Daw is a good Master, but he's in Outcasts and I tend to play TT so I don't play as him. I couldn't give an informed opinion on him.

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4 hours ago, Wakefield said:

1) It also works with other pass tokens that you get from other sources. Summoned enemy models, Blackmail, or her totem. Additionally, yes, preventing your opponent from scoring is one of the major points of the game, however, if your opponent is deliberately delaying their scoring until turn 4 or 5 they're just opening themselves up for you to stop them or potentially telegraphing their schemes to allow your hitters to snipe folks out.

2) Bill is a tech piece not a beater. Min 3 is solid, scheme removal is solid, his mobility is top notch because of his triggers and his Heroic Intervention as well as conditional fast. He's not there to wipe things out, he's there to cause damage, protect Youko, and conditionally remove schemes.

3) Youko is soft, yes, however, your opponent will often have very limited resources in their hand to cheat fate, or be unable to cheat fate at all. If they tend to focus, use Riddles in the Dark to stack distracted on their beaters and force enemies to use precious actions to either assist it off, or they're at a double negative to swing on Youko. The only way they're getting around that is by focus, having an inbuilt positive, or focus and stoning. She can also always stone and tends to run heavy on cache because of a large number of triggers that she needs.

4) A lack of tactical actions is a problem, but not having a tactical action doesn't immediately make her unplayable.

5) Youko is the single highest 'discard a card' model in the game. From her Bonus which forces up to two discards if your opponent has not revealed a scheme, which also gives you knowledge of your opponent's hand, to Blackmail allowing you to either gain two pass tokens which let you add accuracy or gain activation advantage, or even slip in an Obey, she can single handedly drain someone's hand and remove their ability to Cheat Fate and move cards from their hand into the Conflict. Also, if you're at a negative, you cannot Cheat Fate, which means even one or two distracted on a target can easily make your opponent rely just on the flip.

6) She's a brand new Master in a meta that's been stifled by Coronavirus. Folks can't really get together reliably and play. Her models also aren't all out yet. Meta is also dependent on region. I've gotten some great wins with her locally. I feel like I most of the time have tools in her kit to at least tie if not win any matchup I go into and I feel she's a fun, solid Master to play with. Is she the ideal pick in every scenario? Absolutely not. But that's why I play Faux. I counter pick or play Masters whom are good into certain factions or pools. If I know my opponent likes summoners, I'll reach for Youko to drain their hand and try to force them into losing that high card to get the clutch summon out. If it's a scheme heavy pool or something like Corrupted Ley Lines, I'll declare Youko to control where my opponent's Lodestone carrier is. She's not a generalist like Lucas McCabe or Shenlong or Dreamer.

Tnx for big answer.

But about 6 i sad about world cup , guys from a lot of countries most of them tt and nobody play , btw in vassal she got all minions.

About resources u right , but some crew got heavy draw, so not  hard care about discard.

Youko fear is simle duel like pigapult.

Most of all i agree with u but some stuff not work with her. 

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I know nothing about Youko, but one thing that stands out is she is an obey master that can't obey her own models? That seems disappointing. Half the point of having obey in your crew is being able to get actions out of your models while they're not activated.

Her discard/draw engine seems super sweet. I'm not sure how she forces too many discards though (for Blackmail, what's to stop the person from declining to discard cards? All you get out of it is a single action, and you've presumably not taken anything where the bonus action really matters because you're against Youko).

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16 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I know nothing about Youko, but one thing that stands out is she is an obey master that can't obey her own models? That seems disappointing. Half the point of having obey in your crew is being able to get actions out of your models while they're not activated.

Her discard/draw engine seems super sweet. I'm not sure how she forces too many discards though (for Blackmail, what's to stop the person from declining to discard cards? All you get out of it is a single action, and you've presumably not taken anything where the bonus action really matters because you're against Youko).

It's a lot of things. Because you can also utilize it to disengage or maneuver and enemy into a bad position or scoring position for yourself. My favorite is utilizing it with Hinamatsu and forcing an opponent to take a disengage which then triggers wicked. You can also use it on folks that aren't engaged to drop schemes in bad spots that may prevent scoring. Or pick up a scheme marker. Additionally pass tokens turn her models into near guaranteed damage so you're not only getting two pass tokens which she uses for accuracy but also the action on top of that. 

17 hours ago, Plaag said:

what?))) jack will smash all youko forces

Seems like it would be very easy for charm warders and Youko to drain Jack's hand and set up for Bill to just two shot Jack. 

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4 hours ago, Wakefield said:

You can also use it on folks that aren't engaged to drop schemes in bad spots that may prevent scoring.

You drop a friendly scheme marker.

 

 

4 hours ago, Wakefield said:

Seems like it would be very easy for charm warders and Youko to drain Jack's hand and set up for Bill to just two shot Jack. 

Jack Daw has some of the best card drawing in the game and is also very good at attacking his opponents hand. The real thing to worry about if an outcast or resser player declares 10T is essence lantern to stop demise on guilty and Monty and the abundance of ruthless. A plan should also never rely on minions getting triggers to be good.

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5 hours ago, Wakefield said:

It's a lot of things. Because you can also utilize it to disengage or maneuver and enemy into a bad position or scoring position for yourself. My favorite is utilizing it with Hinamatsu and forcing an opponent to take a disengage which then triggers wicked. You can also use it on folks that aren't engaged to drop schemes in bad spots that may prevent scoring. Or pick up a scheme marker. Additionally pass tokens turn her models into near guaranteed damage so you're not only getting two pass tokens which she uses for accuracy but also the action on top of that. 

Seems like it would be very easy for charm warders and Youko to drain Jack's hand and set up for Bill to just two shot Jack. 

If u wanna smash jack hand u need pick shen for guarantee discard with trigger.

And i think u mb never played against good jack .

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I don't play Shenlong. And I never claimed to have played against Daw. I just am stating I think it would be a potent matchup because of the handsize reduction and the variety of tools that Qi and Gong can bring against him. I've never played against 3 ed Daw. He's not in my meta.  

I think we've gotten a bit off the original topic anyway. I'm certain you can create a new thread to continue affirming that Youko is not worth running. I find her fun and potent and believe with enough practice she can be useful in plenty of Pools. 

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1 hour ago, Wakefield said:

I don't play Shenlong. And I never claimed to have played against Daw. I just am stating I think it would be a potent matchup because of the handsize reduction and the variety of tools that Qi and Gong can bring against him. I've never played against 3 ed Daw. He's not in my meta.  

I think we've gotten a bit off the original topic anyway. I'm certain you can create a new thread to continue affirming that Youko is not worth running. I find her fun and potent and believe with enough practice she can be useful in plenty of Pools. 

so how u can tell something abt jack?)) i have played with youko and jack, jack is great and youko is bad

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3 minutes ago, Plaag said:

so how u can tell something abt jack?)) i have played with youko and jack, jack is great and youko is bad

I, again, never claimed to know anything about Jack Daw. I said it looked like Youko would have a favorable matchup. Charm Warders shut down Demise. Lust penalizes card draws, Youko can easily lock down a Guilty as a target to use discard effects with their low willpower. It's going to be a balancing act.

Malifaux 3ed is remarkably balanced. I think Jack and Youko are good in their own ways and the best part about Malifaux is you pick your list for each pool and each match. 

I also don't think that any particular Master or Keyword is dramatically underpowered compared to anyone else. Wyrd did a good job where at a casual level pretty much anyone can have fun and play well with any keyword they set their mind to. Tournament Play is Tournament Play and the meta of where a player comes with is going to shift with each Gaining Grounds. Youko has numerous advantages in being both TT and having a good in on Corrupted Leylines and Public Enemies, having a killy crew with good movement shenanigans to dictate an engagement and kill specific targets or punish models carrying the Lodestone or Bounty Points from Public Enemies. 

I suppose it's clear we won't see eye to eye on this and so I'll leave it at that. Sorry to OP for hijacking the thread with posts about Youko strategy. 

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1 hour ago, Wakefield said:

I, again, never claimed to know anything about Jack Daw. I said it looked like Youko would have a favorable matchup. Charm Warders shut down Demise. Lust penalizes card draws, Youko can easily lock down a Guilty as a target to use discard effects with their low willpower. It's going to be a balancing act.

Malifaux 3ed is remarkably balanced. I think Jack and Youko are good in their own ways and the best part about Malifaux is you pick your list for each pool and each match. 

I also don't think that any particular Master or Keyword is dramatically underpowered compared to anyone else. Wyrd did a good job where at a casual level pretty much anyone can have fun and play well with any keyword they set their mind to. Tournament Play is Tournament Play and the meta of where a player comes with is going to shift with each Gaining Grounds. Youko has numerous advantages in being both TT and having a good in on Corrupted Leylines and Public Enemies, having a killy crew with good movement shenanigans to dictate an engagement and kill specific targets or punish models carrying the Lodestone or Bounty Points from Public Enemies. 

I suppose it's clear we won't see eye to eye on this and so I'll leave it at that. Sorry to OP for hijacking the thread with posts about Youko strategy. 

lol, u never played against normal somer, dreamer, ophelia, shenlong, colette, dashel-they are imbalanced

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