Nexus (Cadmus Keyword) Discussion

[Whut]

6 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

hiring a cryptologist and making 2 husks turn 1

Unfortunately not possible, Fungus Among Us is "When this model Activates" not "At the Start of the Activation" so she actually has to activate. She can replace twice if she gets Will Of Cadmus though!

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Whut said:

Unfortunately not possible, Fungus Among Us is "When this model Activates" not "At the Start of the Activation" so she actually has to activate. She can replace twice if she gets Will Of Cadmus though!

When this model activates is a start of activation effect.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Whut said:

Austera&Twigge (or Vernon&Welles, other?) (for dropping 2+ Schemes to summon from)

You really don't need someone to drop scheme markers, plenty of web markers can be dropped without further diluting your crew synergy.

[Whut]

17 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

When this model activates is a start of activation effect.

Can you quote the rulebook? I would love for it to be but I don't think it is.

  

13 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You really don't need someone to drop scheme markers, plenty of web markers can be dropped without further diluting your crew synergy.

Do you go for 2 EAE each turn or 3? I think if going for 3 every turn,  relying on keeping up with 4 web markers is going to spread your resources thin by Turn 3.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Whut said:

Can you quote the rulebook? I would love for it to be but I don't think it is.

There have been lots of discussions about it on the rules forum. Basically there are like four phrases that appear to mean the same thing (start of activation).

For a rules reference, check out the rules for an activation. There is one window for all the 'start of activation' sort of stuff, and Cryptologist appears to reference that window.

[santaclaws01]

Just now, Whut said:

Can you quote the rulebook? I would love for it to be but I don't think it is.

You need explain why an effect that says "When this model activates" does not resolve at the start of it's activation.

Also this is arguing that Ancient Technology is a completely worthless ability unless you're specifically against Meredith and Beebe, as the only two models that say "When this model activates"

[Whut]

4 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You need explain why an effect that says "When this model activates" does not resolve at the start of it's activation.

Also this is arguing that Ancient Technology is a completely worthless ability unless you're specifically against Meredith and Beebe, as the only two models that say "When this model activates"

Correct. I think Wyrd is incredibly scrupulous and consistent in their word choice, and they intentionally worded those abilities that way specifically to avoid the Cryptologist being able to use it out of activation. I think these are the only two models in the game that are worded this way too, so it's not like there's another reason to use "When this model activates" as opposed to "at the start of this model's activation"

Presumably (without having looked in the rulebook) it's something like.... "at the start of this model's activation" occurs at Time=1 during the model's activation, with actions take place at T=2 and end of activation at T=3. "When this model activates" would occur at T=0, before the "start of activation" effects are calculated and resolved

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 minutes ago, Whut said:

Correct. I think Wyrd is incredibly scrupulous and consistent in their word choice, and they intentionally worded those abilities that way specifically to avoid the Cryptologist being able to use it out of activation. I think these are the only two models in the game that are worded this way too, so it's not like there's another reason to use "When this model activates" as opposed to "at the start of this model's activation"

Presumably (without having looked in the rulebook) it's something like.... "at the start of this model's activation" occurs at Time=1 during the model's activation, with actions take place at T=2 and end of activation at T=3. "When this model activates" would occur at T=0, before the "start of activation" effects are calculated and resolved

Activation order is spelled out in step C on page 21. The step 0 you reference doesn't exist there. The only window is C1 (start of activation).

[santaclaws01]

Just now, Whut said:

Correct.

I don't mean Antique Timepiece doesn't work on those abilities, I mean Ancient Technology, which says "When a model with a4 Activates, ... the would resolve when it Activates to be ignored", meaning the only two effects in the game that Ancient Technology actually works on is Fungus Among Us and Another Man's Trash. So if you want to say that Antique Timepiece can't be used on those 2 abilities, then you also need to say that Ancient Technology is almost literally just blank space.

3 minutes ago, Whut said:

I think Wyrd is incredibly scrupulous and consistent in their word choice,

...they're not. It's the single biggest issue with their rules writing. 

4 minutes ago, Whut said:

"When this model activates" as opposed to "at the start of this model's activation"

Other things also use "When ... activates" instead of "At the start...". Pine Box is one. Then there's the Oxfordian Mage's "After a friendly model Activates", and again, the Cryptologist's Ancient Technology.

6 minutes ago, Whut said:

Presumably (without having looked in the rulebook) it's something like.... "at the start of this model's activation" occurs at Time=1 during the model's activation, with actions take place at T=2 and end of activation at T=3. "When this model activates" would occur at T=0, before the "start of activation" effects are calculated and resolved

A model starts it's activation in C1. There's no point in between it being chosen an the start of it's activation that could be used to say "when" the model activates. At least with the Oxfordian Mage there's an argument that it happens after the start of activation before C2.

[Whut]

12 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

...they're not. It's the single biggest issue with their rules writing. 

They're not perfect, but generally  do a good job and are phenomenal compared to every other tabletop gaming company I've encountered by a mile

22 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

A model starts it's activation in C1. There's no point in between it being chosen an the start of it's activation that could be used to say "when" the model activates. At least with the Oxfordian Mage there's an argument that it happens after the start of activation before C2.

I'll have to look myself later. I'm open to the idea that RaW it works that way in a similar fashion to what happened with the Ricochet Trigger. But as far as intentions are concerned, you're unlikely to convince me that out of all "Start of Activation" effects Wyrd accidentally worded differently ONLY the two abilities which would be most abusable with Cryptologists.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well, there's also:

• Oxfordian Mage's Arcane Conduit ability.
• Pine Box and similar effects on Brutal effigy/emissary, Death marshal & Recruiter

So that phrasing existed long before they even imagined the Cryptologist existing I think. There's also a few other odd ways of saying start of activation, from memory. I think Solkan listed out four different references to the same thing once, which was a matter of debate before the FAQ on the start of activation window and whether you could generate new effects in that window.

[Whut]

Back on Spelleaters...

I'll agree that I put too much emphasis on "melee presence".  I should have said models which provide things the Keyword doesn't have enough of - mostly models who can spread out better,  models that drop scheme markers, and models who can threaten enemies away from Nexus/Meredith or protect them. Other options are healing (better than a Spelleater can) and small push effects for correcting positioning (and avoiding using AP to Exoskeletal).

I also blurted out the Husk example just as a comparison point when it comes to health battery value for SS spent, not necessarily saying that a Husk is a good hire (although sometimes against Terrifying/ResistanceTriggers they can be)

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

What they are however is is place for the more important back liners to throw damage to as they have multiple ways of healing and get a free shielded every turn.

Isn't this partially what EAE are for, especially since leaving them at 1 Health and getting them killed within 6" of FlushWithCash gets you free stones and 4" of Meredith gets you free cards?
I didn't value ignoring triggers enough when thinking of their resilience which is a fair point, but if they take a damage or two from soaking Legion they've now dug themselves deep into two-shot range to some damage 4's or 5's against their Df5

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Poison sets up Meredith to get out parasite tokens with a single use of Rancid Transplant, and they facilitate one of the best ways the crew has to force out a parasite token onto an important soulstone user. Not to mention there are plenty of discard effects in the crew, and just other sources of poison in the crew, to easily be doing 3+ damage at the end of a turn to a model from conditions alone.

Stat 5 on Df AND no suit built in? Yuck. But if REALLY need to get a Token on someone, Meredith can get the poison from Vial, a friendly model poisoned earlier, Creeper, or Nexus' Transmutation.

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Otherwise I'm always better off just hiring an eyes and ears and turning it into a husk

Huh? Why when you can just summon them first turn?

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Or I can not spend 8 stones on the hope that these mv 4 stat 4 models will actually prove useful in a crew where you actively want to stay in keyword for a tangible benefit and won't have to either spend multiple high cards on them to get use of turning into something, and on my master to set it up. Additionally, they're not going to be getting healed by Meredith, because Meredith is going to be too far away from them, as I can't exoskeletal connection them forward with the rest of my crew.

Compared to a Spelleater you would be better off spending 8 stones on these 14 range, "effective Stat 6 against Injured+2" models who cycle a card, remove conditions, heal above Hard2Kill from Meredith, occasionally heal others, soak Siphon damage, give out Focus (including when anything dies to PToken damage), refund a stone if they die, generate double the amount of AP, and throw out a shot at whatever model Nexus softens up (which she will be wanting to do anyway), requiring the opponent cheat high or let my 4 cost model replace into a Spelleater anyway.

In Keyword is good, but I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot when I could just take better models. One extra Cadmus isn't going to make or break your Legion web nor is the possible +1 Stat on WillOfCadmus something to fawn over.

Why is Meredith anywhere other than in the back quietly running the HuskCreation/HealthBattery/RancidFocus engine while Quarantining?

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Yeah, they're not ranged beaters. They help support the crew.

I just don't see them providing enough support. They give Focus? Well it requires a Tome and condition each turn, Meredith can already pass Focus from a concentrating cheap model, and a Prospect can provide some extra for half the cost. They heal? Maybe one per turn, two if you really try for it, and it's not guaranteed - Finnigan, Lamplighters, Intrepid all do this more consistently or better while also providing other, far better benefits. Their bonus action is good and the discard aura can be useful too, but I just don't see it as enough to justify the 7 cost when the rest of what they do is just weak or inconsistent supplements to things Cadmus already has.

-----

Granted you do make some good points. I used to think they're the worst model in the Faction and now I'm second guessing that, but I'm still hesitant to call them good.

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, Whut said:

They're not perfect, but generally  do a good job and are phenomenal compared to every other tabletop gaming company I've encountered by a mile

I'll have to look myself later. I'm open to the idea that RaW it works that way in a similar fashion to what happened with the Ricochet Trigger. But as far as intentions are concerned, you're unlikely to convince me that out of all "Start of Activation" effects Wyrd accidentally worded differently ONLY the two abilities which would be most abusable with Cryptologists.

And the cryptologists own ability specifically designed to disable start of activation effects.

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Whut said:

 

Do you go for 2 EAE each turn or 3? I think if going for 3 every turn,  relying on keeping up with 4 web markers is going to spread your resources thin by Turn 3.

The deciding factor for turn 1 is typically what is my hand. I also am happy to drop scheme markers in the area I expect to summon, so I normally have a couple of web and a couple of scheme markers. Later turns is a mixture of Hand, number of eyes and ears out there, and markers. 

I think you underestimate how often the Spell eaters hit their healing triggers when you get the suits from both sides of the duel. And even if its just a tech choice for facing condition crews, they have a solid place in the list of options. If you thought these were the worst models in the faction, then the faction doesn't have bad choices...

[Whut]

9 hours ago, Adran said:

I think you underestimate how often the Spell eaters hit their healing triggers when you get the suits from both sides of the duel.

They heal for 1, or 2 if both sides of the duel are Rams (which is rare). They also have to win a duel and don't ignore Concealment or FF, so I'm assuming they heal 1 per turn or 2 when lucky. If you really need healing, a lamplighter heals 1/2/3 and pushes 3" twice or Finnigan can heal an ally 2 more consistently

9 hours ago, Adran said:

And even if its just a tech choice for facing condition crews, they have a solid place in the list of options.

Sure. I just don't think 1-2 of them are auto takes

9 hours ago, Adran said:

If you thought these were the worst models in the faction, then the faction doesn't have bad choices...

Yea, I hadn't given the Spelleaters enough thought.
Still, I think on average Explorers have less bad models than the other factions. Bad models I can think of include... moorwraiths, cryptologists (If it doesn't work on Meredith/Beebe), Harpooner, Jessie, Alpinist, Machinist.

[Whut]

11 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

And the cryptologists own ability specifically designed to disable start of activation effects.

Okay now that I've gotten a chance to look at the card again, I see that Ancient Technology states "When this model activates" which I didn't realize. I get it now, that ability wouldn't do anything if "When" and "Start" were two different timings. I still want a confirmation from Wyrd, but hot damn Cryptologists working with Beebe and Meredith is SO strong.

[Adran]

33 minutes ago, Whut said:

They heal for 1, or 2 if both sides of the duel are Rams (which is rare). They also have to win a duel and don't ignore Concealment or FF, so I'm assuming they heal 1 per turn or 2 when lucky. If you really need healing, a lamplighter heals 1/2/3 and pushes 3" twice or Finnigan can heal an ally 2 more consistently

I'm not sure I'd hire Finnegan for his healing. I would compare the spell eater as as good a healer for cadmus as Finnegan and close to the lamp lighter, ( which probably gets the healing near terrain) whilst having other effects on the game as well as healing. A lot of that is due to we are legion, so you can shift the healing where needed quite easily, including the Meredith healing even if the spell eaterl is at full health. 

I've said else where I think most factions have models in the power range of 3-9. Explorers seem to be 5-9. They don't have the bad models that you automatically avoid that other faction have at the moment. 

[Whut]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I'm not sure I'd hire Finnegan for his healing. I would compare the spell eater as as good a healer for cadmus as Finnegan and close to the lamp lighter, ( which probably gets the healing near terrain) whilst having other effects on the game as well as healing. A lot of that is due to we are legion, so you can shift the healing where needed quite easily, including the Meredith healing even if the spell eaterl is at full health.

I agree on Finnigan vs Spelleater being roughly equal healing, but I interpret that as "Spelleater heals very little and this isn't a huge selling point for him."

I don't see how it's anywhere close vs Lamplighters though. LLs get two 1/2/3 heals at double the range and push 3"+1" which can help with positioning Cadmus' many small auras and exiting engagement. Granted LLs are squishier but can stay much further back and come with a variety of better defensive support effects. And I say this as someone who doesn't think Lamplighters are a good enough take most of the time.

Legion can just as easily be soaked by a free EAE without having to spend 7 stones.

--

At the end of the day I look at what Spelleaters do and it just isn't impressive enough for 7 stones.

• On average, one shot for 2-3 damage which might heal 1.
  • On a good turn, heal 2
• Soaking Legion damage (which can be better done by EAE)
• Turning X+2 into Focused+2 (but inconsistent requiring melee range, a Tome, and setup for X)
• Elemental Backlash (1-2 damage at end of turn semi-randomly, admittedly good against some crews)
• DttLD (admittedly good)

--

Edit: Heck, if a Cryptologist allows Meredith to summon an extra Husk, then even he effectively generates more health than the Spelleater does. It requires a 9 but Meredith heals 1 and then the Husk heals 3, both of which can be passed along to other friendly Cadmus and the Husk can be your Legion damage sponge until it moves away (at which point you'll make another one).

[Adran]

That wasn't what I meant when I mentioned legion. When the spell eater heals from Meredith, it can shunt that healing if it's on full health. 

The lamp lighter will probably heal more, because there is probably terrain, but the spell eater will be doing damage as well as healing. I like lamp lighter, but it's still a tech pick, and one I don't think cadmus need, because they have that tech already. 

[Whut]

6 minutes ago, Adran said:

That wasn't what I meant when I mentioned legion. When the spell eater heals from Meredith, it can shunt that healing if it's on full health. 

The lamp lighter will probably heal more, because there is probably terrain, but the spell eater will be doing damage as well as healing. I like lamp lighter, but it's still a tech pick, and one I don't think cadmus need, because they have that tech already. 

Regardless of where the healing is, be it on the Spelleater after it soaks damage from someone within 4" or directly onto someone within 4" of it, it's still only 1 health on most turns, 2 sometimes, at a 4" range. That's not good healing.

[SoylentRobot]

question about the Will of Cadmus upgrade: does the model with the upgrade always have access to the Will of Cadmus action on the card, or can they only use it the second time they activate in a turn with the Connected Conscience ability?

[Sweet Tooth]

4 minutes ago, SoylentRobot said:

question about the Will of Cadmus upgrade: does the model with the upgrade always have access to the Will of Cadmus action on the card, or can they only use it the second time they activate in a turn with the Connected Conscience ability?

It can only be used during that second activation since it is a part of connected conscience (and not granted as an action by itself, see NB’s Eldritch Magic upgrade that gives an action).

[Traifan]

Am I the only one who wishes there were more Hive upgrades, each with their own ways to utilize parasite tokens?

[Cedar]

Yep, this would be good. Same as few more Curses for JD, or other model-related stuff (like Austringers Raptor upgrade or Calypsos Pilot upgrade).

[Jesy Blue]

I could always go for some new Equipment & Trinket cards.