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@Pallas4 Completely off topic, but I love your avatar picture! So cute!

18 minutes ago, Plaag said:

they dont listen, so why i need to test it?)

Then there's an opening for a perfectly balanced game out there if you want to design one... Otherwise, might I suggest chess or checkers... Although just beware that white is a bit OP :D

2 minutes ago, Rufess said:

They listen to players who can explain and prove their points. And this is the probelm.

How is this a problem? Otherwise the game would change every week with every knee-jerk reaction of getting curb-stomped when facing a new master

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1 minute ago, Da Git said:

How is this a problem? Otherwise the game would change every week with every knee-jerk reaction of getting curb-stomped when facing a new master

Rufess isn't saying that the current playtesting approach is the problem.  They are saying that Plaag's continued declarative statements of "X is broken" are the problem with his contributions to the discussion around balance and wouldn't be helpful to the playtesting process. Simply because "X is broken.  No, I don't need to tell you why, just bow to my superior wisdom" doesn't really help iron out issues with a particular model.

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2 minutes ago, Da Git said:

How is this a problem? Otherwise the game would change every week with every knee-jerk reaction of getting curb-stomped when facing a new master

I'm not sure since I'm not inside other people's head, but I think what Rufess said is not that this is a problem in itself.

But that it's a problem for people complaining about balance without explaining or proving their points. So they are frustrated things don't change from their feedback.

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3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Will be interesting to see how they do in the vassal world series!

They don't seem too bad to me so far, but haven't played with/against.

We'll see how they do, but there are a lot of models to discover yet, and people need to play enough to know how to get the max value from them, so I don't think is going to be overwhelmed with ES.

3 hours ago, Ogid said:

It's natural to "fear" a bit the unknow and think new things are broken. Up to know I'm pleasantly surprised with how different and thematic the masters of this faction feels just by reading their cards. I'd lie if I say I don't have any reserves about the power level of some stuff, but I'll definitely trust the work done and give them a chance.

About this keyword, the theme is pretty cool and it seems one of those keywords that need an specific plan to go against. As said above keeping those tokens out of your important models is paramount; as soon as one of those get one, its damage potential will be crippled because the whole enemy keyword will be able to relent (and this opens the possible counterplay of relying less on big daddy beaters and more in lot of chaff or including models with triggers like Onslaught or Critical strike able to still ramp up the damage if the other player relents), his second attack is also a death sentence if any good model get one of those tokens, being able to make a Colette like repositioning (but at least this needs to put a token first on the other model); and I'm sure other model of the crews will be able to mess heavily with models with tokens, another reason to keep your key pieces clean.

It's hilarious VS can neuter the parasite mechanic btw (Antibiotics I guess)

A specific plan against  master that attacks you with Stat 7 and makes you discard 3 cards? Seems quite difficult. Even if you manage to take only the damage (2/4/5 or 1/3/4 + Injured) she also has a :new-Pulse: that only requires a 3!

And this is without seeing any other models that can put parasite tokens (unless we're seeing a Wong's situation, where the main way to put XYZ tokens is the master and everything else is less than anecdotic).

2 hours ago, MajorUndead said:

I'm not sure since I'm not inside other people's head, but I think what Rufess said is not that this is a problem in itself.

But that it's a problem for people complaining about balance without explaining or proving their points. So they are frustrated things don't change from their feedback.

Well, I already said many points about this master which, makes it look quite unbalanced, but nobody blinked an eye until @Plaag came.

Don't get me wrong, the mechanics looks cool, but this master does almost everything as I already listed before. In comparison, most of the masters in the game look like garbage.

Many people complained about the power level of Winston Finnigan when they show him, and this is a way worse scenario in my opinion.

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Hum....

Yes this master seems to do everything, and moreover. But we must not forget several details.
1 this master does not have such great defense capabilities. Yes "Siphon Life" and "We are legion" can help her but it's only one wound at a time... And with a defense of 5 and 11 wounds, let's say that we saw more resistant.
2 we don't know her crew. And it will change a lot in the appreciation we have of it.
3 I have the impression that Parker and Perdita can do even more everything, and yet I don't have the impression that they are that much above the lot.
4 It seems that this master demands subtlety. She can't attack three times from a distance unless there are already three friendly Cadmus next door. And if she attacks closely... Defense 5, 11 wounds....
5 And if she attacks, she doesn't put a web marker next to her so her invocation will depend on the schemes/web markers of the other models. A lot of management to be expected. Wouldn't it be worth it to just move the models via his second attack to put web markers ? See point 2.

Actually I have the impression that it's a bit like Markus. More the game is long, more she gains power. Except that She's also a target to shoot down. If she dies, unless one of his friends also has 3 actions, the will of Cadmus will be much worse (just once per turn). And again, defense 5, 11 wounds.


I'm not saying she's a bad master, and I'm agree she seems to be able to face to every situation. Just that we don't know enough to judge her well. On the other hand yes it will be difficult to face because we will have to take into account the parasites token....

 

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1 minute ago, Pallas4 said:

Hum....

Yes this master seems to do everything, and moreover. But we must not forget several details.
1 this master does not have such great defense capabilities. Yes "Siphon Life" and "We are legion" can help her but it's only one wound at a time... And with a defense of 5 and 11 wounds, let's say that we saw more resistant.
2 we don't know her crew. And it will change a lot in the appreciation we have of it.
3 I have the impression that Parker and Perdita can do even more everything, and yet I don't have the impression that they are that much above the lot.
4 It seems that this master demands subtlety. She can't attack three times from a distance unless there are already three friendly Cadmus next door. And if she attacks closely... Defense 5, 11 wounds....
5 And if she attacks, she doesn't put a web marker next to her so her invocation will depend on the schemes/web markers of the other models. A lot of management to be expected. Wouldn't it be worth it to just move the models via his second attack to put web markers ? See point 2.

Actually I have the impression that it's a bit like Markus. More the game is long, more she gains power. Except that She's also a target to shoot down. If she dies, unless one of his friends also has 3 actions, the will of Cadmus will be much worse (just once per turn). And again, defense 5, 11 wounds.


I'm not saying she's a bad master, and I'm agree she seems to be able to face to every situation. Just that we don't know enough to judge her well. On the other hand yes it will be difficult to face because we will have to take into account the parasites token....

 

  1. You're forgetting that she can ping her allies for damage, which makes her have a pseudo-armor 1.
  2. Definitely, I already said that.
  3. Seriously? Honestly, where is Perdita's card can you see as much utility as this model? Where is Parker's?
  4. She only needs to put a Parasite token to attack twice, and she has 2 ways of doing it before the 2nd attack.
  5. It definitely looks like a complicate master to play. The thing is that is she has always something to do.

Marcus? Marcus struggles with many things, and Marcus powerlevel decreases after turn 3, when the crew is split and some of the upgrades have already been discarded. The most similar master, would be Hamelin, for similar "token" mechanics.

Defense 5 with 11 wounds, the ability to redirect damage and SS user. Add to that an Emissary that give her free shielded, with Take the hit and Df7 and situational healing.

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1 yes in aura of 4. And one By activation for each. So at leat 2 or 3 models to stay near her to armor. Not cheap, but why not...

3 Parker can fight, move his minions, gain soulstones or cards by removing enemy scheme markers, gain action to do interact... and can move and shoot for 1 action (once by turn, ok, it still a free push) and much more. If it wold be reveleated now, I'm sure a lot of people would say he's doing all..

And the emissay, yes... 10 points so between one or two friendly Cadmus models for Will of Cadmus (or 4 + 2 but only in turn 3). It's a good deal for Defense, not for attack (and you have to let your emissary near her, with other model).

 

My point is, she seems a good master. But we have to wait the crew AND play it to really see if she's broken or not.

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2 minutes ago, Pallas4 said:

1 yes in aura of 4. And one By activation for each. So at leat 2 or 3 models to stay near her to armor. Not cheap, but why not...

3 Parker can fight, move his minions, gain soulstones or cards by removing enemy scheme markers, gain action to do interact... and can move and shoot for 1 action (once by turn, ok, it still a free push) and much more. If it wold be reveleated now, I'm sure a lot of people would say he's doing all..

And the emissay, yes... 10 points so between one or two friendly Cadmus models for Will of Cadmus (or 4 + 2 but only in turn 3). It's a good deal for Defense, not for attack (and you have to let your emissary near her, with other model).

 

My point is, she seems a good master. But we have to wait the crew AND play it to really see if she's broken or not.

Seriously, check the list of things Nexus can do and compare it to Parker. You can't be serious xD I'm talking from the experience, Parker is the 3rd master I've played the most, but most of what he can do is plain situational. That he can do it all? Please... How can he give conditions? Where is his condition removal? Where is his summoning? Where is his terrain marker creation? Where is his Obey ignoring insignificant? What about his irreducible damage? Or his pulse attacks?

You also mentioned Perdita, who basically kills stuff.

 

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1 hour ago, Pallas4 said:

Hum....

Yes this master seems to do everything, and moreover. But we must not forget several details.
1 this master does not have such great defense capabilities. Yes "Siphon Life" and "We are legion" can help her but it's only one wound at a time... And with a defense of 5 and 11 wounds, let's say that we saw more resistant.
2 we don't know her crew. And it will change a lot in the appreciation we have of it.
3 I have the impression that Parker and Perdita can do even more everything, and yet I don't have the impression that they are that much above the lot.
4 It seems that this master demands subtlety. She can't attack three times from a distance unless there are already three friendly Cadmus next door. And if she attacks closely... Defense 5, 11 wounds....
5 And if she attacks, she doesn't put a web marker next to her so her invocation will depend on the schemes/web markers of the other models. A lot of management to be expected. Wouldn't it be worth it to just move the models via his second attack to put web markers ? See point 2.

Actually I have the impression that it's a bit like Markus. More the game is long, more she gains power. Except that She's also a target to shoot down. If she dies, unless one of his friends also has 3 actions, the will of Cadmus will be much worse (just once per turn). And again, defense 5, 11 wounds.


I'm not saying she's a bad master, and I'm agree she seems to be able to face to every situation. Just that we don't know enough to judge her well. On the other hand yes it will be difficult to face because we will have to take into account the parasites token....

 

abt defence - have u seen emissary? and master can attack through models with parasite token

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25 minutes ago, ShinChan said:
  1. You're forgetting that she can ping her allies for damage, which makes her have a pseudo-armor 1.
  2. She only needs to put a Parasite token to attack twice, and she has 2 ways of doing it before the 2nd attack.

Just focusing on these 2.

She can ping her allies each at most once per activation. so if I hit her 3 times she needs 3 different allies within 4" to move it all. 

On her card she has no way to force a parasite token. The nearest is making models take a TN 14 Df duel, or your opponent  having chosen not to discard a card.  If there is only 1 Camus model near mine, then as long as I pass that duel, or have a card to discard, she has to work to get a second attack on me. 

So just from her card she either needs models near her or models near me. Its certainly possible that she could do both, but that looks to be depending on what her crew has. 

There is certainly a large toolbox on this model, but since most of it relies on her crew I think it could also be called situational.  (With no crew she is Mv4 and a 1" melee). 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

Seriously, check the list of things Nexus can do and compare it to Parker. You can't be serious xD I'm talking from the experience, Parker is the 3rd master I've played the most, but most of what he can do is plain situational. That he can do it all? Please... How can he give conditions? Where is his condition removal? Where is his summoning? Where is his terrain marker creation? Where is his Obey ignoring insignificant? What about his irreducible damage? Or his pulse attacks?

You also mentioned Perdita, who basically kills stuff.

 

agreed - most masters in the game are not competitive, but u dont want to see all explorers) 

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Another limiting factor is Will Of Cadmus is an Attack Action, so whoever has the upgrade cannot use it on themselves, and a 6" range is not a lot.... so here's hoping for a lot of those summonable tiny minions.

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2 hours ago, Adran said:

Just focusing on these 2.

She can ping her allies each at most once per activation. so if I hit her 3 times she needs 3 different allies within 4" to move it all. 

On her card she has no way to force a parasite token. The nearest is making models take a TN 14 Df duel, or your opponent  having chosen not to discard a card.  If there is only 1 Camus model near mine, then as long as I pass that duel, or have a card to discard, she has to work to get a second attack on me. 

So just from her card she either needs models near her or models near me. Its certainly possible that she could do both, but that looks to be depending on what her crew has. 

There is certainly a large toolbox on this model, but since most of it relies on her crew I think it could also be called situational.  (With no crew she is Mv4 and a 1" melee). 

 

 

You mean those 1-3 models she can summon with 37/54 cards? Done. 

If you're scared of the enemy killing her, unless is shooting, they also have to come to you, so then you can smack their faces :)

If it's shooting you're concern about, she can sit behind some blocking terrain out of line of sight and still use Omnipresent Influence to have an important impact on the game.

 

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1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

You mean those 1-3 models she can summon with 49/54 cards? Done. 

If you're scared of the enemy killing her, unless is shooting, they also have to come to you, so then you can smack their faces :)

If it's shooting you're concern about, she can sit behind some blocking terrain out of line of sight and still use Omnipresent Influence to have an important impact on the game.

 

This isnt a normal summon, in order to summon 3 eyes and ears you need to throw away 3 ap spread across your crew and master for the schemes and webs in very close proximity (obeying scheme placement restrictions), then your bonus action, and a severe, its expensive and takes a lot of planning, if 3 units sounds like its too much I implore you to yell at somer

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27 minutes ago, fire5tone said:

Parasites cant make ook models cadmus, and can only attack through models once per activation

She can use Omnipresent influence only one by activation? Or Only one by model by activation?

----

for Parker and other... we won't agree so... ^^

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32 minutes ago, fire5tone said:

This isnt a normal summon, in order to summon 3 eyes and ears you need to throw away 3 ap spread across your crew and master for the schemes and webs in very close proximity (obeying scheme placement restrictions), then your bonus action, and a severe, its expensive and takes a lot of planning, if 3 units sounds like its too much I implore you to yell at somer

I know it is not a normal summon, I read the card and I play Hamelin, so it works like Benny's, but with 2" less range and being able to use Web markers in addition to scheme markers.

So, there is only 1 action (so far) that allows to create web markers: "Create a Web", which is a :ToS-Fast:, with range 6" and that does not require a TN, so we can assume that there are going to be similar abilities.

If it's worth it with Benny, and requires a lot of set up, it will be worth with Nexus (who also has a 40mm base).

I also play Som'er, so no need to yell at the father of the President of the Bayou. He does his things.

27 minutes ago, fire5tone said:

Parasites cant make ook models cadmus, and can only attack through models once per activation

It's not once per activation, is once per model per activation.

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7 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

 

If it's worth it with Benny, and requires a lot of set up, it will be worth with Nexus (who also has a 40mm base).

It's not once per activation, is once per model per activation.

 even if its worth it, its very expensive, especially when you only get one option that may or may not be good

2: your right, wording's weird though

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17 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

So, there is only 1 action (so far) that allows to create web markers: "Create a Web", which is a :ToS-Fast:, with range 6" and that does not require a TN, so we can assume that there are going to be similar abilities.

Nexus’s Exoskeletal Connection drops Web markers as part of the action when moving models around.

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6 minutes ago, fire5tone said:

 even if its worth it, its very expensive, especially when you only get one option that may or may not be good

2: your right, wording's weird though

We have different concepts of "very expensive". It needs a marker and a 5 to get a single model out of it.
Can create markers while making a better Leap + drawing a card:

image.thumb.png.d42d8a118e44db3a020a310a9e187b5a.png

She can do this 3 times, drawing 3 cards and then summon 3 of those "pseudo-rats" models. So unless they're worse than a rat (not that a rat is bad by itself, they fulfill their purpose), I see it less resource intensive and with the possibility of being better.

For Benny is expensive, it needs a regular action + one 8 in order to summon 1 or 5 rats (while Nexus can adapt, requiring 5/8/11/RJ). Also, scheme markers, when dropped using interact actions they need to be at least 4" away from another, which makes it way more action intensive than this (since in most deployments you'll have to spend actions walking just to get into position).

I want to point out again that we still need to see the rest of the keyword before jump to conclusions (could be a Wong's situation), but Nexus definitely has the potential to be within the top 5 masters of the game.

 

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The more I think about it, the less I like the design (no comment on power level yet).

It offers so little counterplay.

  • Cadmus forces last activation, no matter what. You could kill five models in a turn and still not get the last activation.
  • You can't negate the upgrade except with extremely niche stuff (VS, burying, etc).
  • Why does it pass along on death? That just removes the main way to counter it.
  • Tokens are inherently an anti counterplay mechanic (can't remove or do anything to them). Normally this is limited by limited scope (do some damage).
  • Here, parasite tokens do SO much! Even making them a parasite upgrade would have more counterplay (and even that would be niche).
  • Possibly other issues

Normally when a crew does this kind of stuff, you have some methods of shutting it down (kill Tara or molly or Zoraida, etc). Here the abilities are just active the whole game.

Can't comment on the power, but don't like the design after thinking about it.

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26 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

We have different concepts of "very expensive". It needs a marker and a 5 to get a single model out of it.
Can create markers while making a better Leap + drawing a card:

She can do this 3 times, drawing 3 cards and then summon 3 of those "pseudo-rats" models. So unless they're worse than a rat (not that a rat is bad by itself, they fulfill their purpose), I see it less resource intensive and with the possibility of being better.

For Benny is expensive, it needs a regular action + one 8 in order to summon 1 or 5 rats (while Nexus can adapt, requiring 5/8/11/RJ). Also, scheme markers, when dropped using interact actions they need to be at least 4" away from another, which makes it way more action intensive than this (since in most deployments you'll have to spend actions walking just to get into position).

I want to point out again that we still need to see the rest of the keyword before jump to conclusions (could be a Wong's situation), but Nexus definitely has the potential to be within the top 5 masters of the game.

 

i suppose when i call it very expensive im comparing it to other summoners who can summon more (options wise, no idea what e&e can do) for less, though i do understand what your saying, also with exoskeleton nexus cant use it to transport himself as its an attack

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1 minute ago, fire5tone said:

i suppose when i call it very expensive im comparing it to other summoners who can summon more (options wise, no idea what e&e can do) for less, though i do understand what your saying, also with exoskeleton nexus cant use it to transport himself as its an attack

I never said she could do it to herself :P

But the thing is that she's not a summoner, the summoner of the ES is English Ivan, at least for what we've seen in the Gencon spoilers.

Eyes and Ears, if I had to guess, I would say they would follow the same principle as Benny's summons (the rats), so low life count and being annoying. Possibly expendable like the Rats or the Bayou Gremlins.

She really looks like a master that is going to be hard to play, in order to get the maximum benefit from her (you always want to have other models within 12"), and she's also slow, which would make her spend actions to make sure she stays well positioned, unless the keyword bring more movement shenanigans.

Her toolkit is, at least, as good as Von Schtook (he also removes conditions, puts conditions, supports other models, etc...). 

 

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1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The more I think about it, the less I like the design (no comment on power level yet).

It offers so little counterplay.

  • Cadmus forces last activation, no matter what. You could kill five models in a turn and still not get the last activation.
  • You can't negate the upgrade except with extremely niche stuff (VS, burying, etc).
  • Why does it pass along on death? That just removes the main way to counter it.
  • Tokens are inherently an anti counterplay mechanic (can't remove or do anything to them). Normally this is limited by limited scope (do some damage).
  • Here, parasite tokens do SO much! Even making them a parasite upgrade would have more counterplay (and even that would be niche).
  • Possibly other issues

Normally when a crew does this kind of stuff, you have some methods of shutting it down (kill Tara or molly or Zoraida, etc). Here the abilities are just active the whole game.

Can't comment on the power, but don't like the design after thinking about it.

Just thinking one potential fix to this would be to make the hive mind upgrade re-attach at the next start phase (after the model is killed).

Then there's temporary counterplay of killing the model holding the upgrade. Not sure how viable it'd be with the rest of the crew, of course!

I like the flavour of it, though. Kill the nexus/hive mind holder, temporary disruption to the parasite mechanic.

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