How do you kill Archie?

[diki]

How do you kill Archie?

[Irritated Walrus]

I tend to focus on him early if he's presented himself as a problem. Shoot at him a bit on the way in, and then send your own beaters in after him. He's not as bad as was during the 3e beta. 

[Ogid]

Terrifying + H2W in a model with a ton of Wds is hard to swallow, specially in a model with Jump and a self-healing; there is hardly a perfect counter for him.

The Carver or The Rider are the 2 ruthless in the faction that would let you attack him without sacrificing your hand, but neither of those could realistically one round him (maybe with Zoraida to give them extra AP with Obeys, Coordinated attacks or Fast). Other high damage and High Wp models like LCB, Titania (using the blood pact combo for extra ping damage) or Bad Juju would have an easier time with the Terrifying than other models while still doing good damage, but here your hand will start to notice it. Nekima with IR could one round him if she can charge through him 3 times, but passing the 3 terrifying tests with her Wp6; or Wrath even with Wp5 could do some work if Archie attacks nearby models (using with Destructive Performance, Violent Ghosts and 1 Focused attack stoning Puncture), Euripides may poke him a bit with his shockwaves and has Intuition to help with Terrifying...

In the dual-faction master cases Marcus + Cojo (Wp 7) with horns and stacked Focused could kill him if he is too agressive (but Terrifying isn't good for that hand hungry crew) and the Agent 47 is another Ruthless that can get extra actions and copy a min 3 attack or deny cheating, so it's another good candidate for the job. Not exactly a dual faction, but Titania as the leader will get the new M-Rex, which is another Ruthless with min 3.

Mind that even with the right models he needs a lot of firepower to go down, be careful not to ignore other important models for tunel visioning on killing him.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Short answer: you don't (unless the opponent let's you).

Long answer: 

Archie can move 18 inches a turn and is reasonably durable, and has healing to recover in between fights. Killing him when he doesn't want to be killed is extremely difficult.

So how do you make him want to be killed? First off, go to where he wants to be (not where he currently is). If you have models in the only places he can score points, he is in for a rough time.

Don't take isolated scheme runners against Archie - he is the king of scheming and will murder lone schemers.

He will often activate last/first to get in, do his thing, and run away. This means that the rest of his crew is vulnerable to pressure. Emphasise killing the rest of his crew if you can't pin down Archie.

If you can pin him down, spam attacks (which can be tricky in a faction without much ruthless). But the more min 3 attacks you hit him with, the faster he goes down. Four will kill him. And he can't stone to reduce damage.

Even if you don't kill him, damaging him badly means he has to play safe and will be at reduced effectiveness.

In summary - pounce and kill him if you get the chance. Otherwise focus on scoring, denying, and bullying the rest of his crew.

[Regelridderen]

Teddy works okay against Archie - although you’ll probably have to dump your whole hand to do so. 

He’s got longer reach and armor+1, which means archie won’t murder him in one turn. He’s Terrifying himself, so he’ll be a drain on the opponents hand. 

In general, you’ll just want something Terrifying to take care of ice cream boy. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Teddy works okay against Archie - although you’ll probably have to dump your whole hand to do so. 

He’s got longer reach and armor+1, which means archie won’t murder him in one turn. He’s Terrifying himself, so he’ll be a drain on the opponents hand. 

In general, you’ll just want something Terrifying to take care of ice cream boy. 

This is a great point. Taking models Archie can't kill efficiently really punishes him. Manipulative and serene countenance can be quite effective as well since he can't focus.

They just can't kill Archie (because they can't catch him).

But the game isn't about killing.

[Regelridderen]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But the game isn't about killing.

Sadly, Arrrrchie seem to have missed that memo

-

But I agree. It’s always a question of whether killing off Archie is worth the resources, you’ll need to commit. 

[diki]

Against ressers I find it's hard work even killing a scheme runner whilst at the same time Archie will be leaping round removing a peice a turn.

Obviously you don't need to kill anything to win, but it's generally a lot harder with no models left

😭

[SEV]

2 hours ago, diki said:

Against ressers I find it's hard work even killing a scheme runner whilst at the same time Archie will be leaping round removing a peice a turn.

Obviously you don't need to kill anything to win, but it's generally a lot harder with no models left

😭

What are you playing? Why is Archie killing one piece a turn ?

I my limited Malifaux experience, I found that, in Neverborn, it's better to deal with mobile powerhouse (like Archie) by  "traping them. It's done by playing area denial instead of focussing on pursuit. You can bait you oponent with a juicy target. If he takes the bait great (you have your counter peice well positioned to kill Archie), if he does'n Archie is either not doing much this turn or you're scoring yourself with your bait.

[ShinChan]

Actually the Hooded Rider can kill him in a single activation with Malifaux's Revolt or Moonlit Charge.

However, Archie's killing potential is questionable, he's more a tanky scheme runner, so usually the best way to deal with him is to put pressure in the other models and make his jobs way harder. An example would be protecting a Symbol of Authority that you're opponent will be trying to get with Archie.

If you tell us which master you are planning on using, we can give a more detailed advice  

[diki]

Historically I have mainly suffered versus Archie with Marcus.

But I would be more interested in hearing suggestions for Pandora! Who I guess may have some more options if I can use mood swings to control when archie activates to some extent. (Obviously the main woe features are not going work on archie, but I'm trying to learn that keyword anyway)

[ShinChan]

7 minutes ago, diki said:

Historically I have mainly suffered versus Archie with Marcus.

But I would be more interested in hearing suggestions for Pandora! Who I guess may have some more options if I can use mood swings to control when archie activates to some extent. (Obviously the main woe features are not going work on archie, but I'm trying to learn that keyword anyway)

Pandora uses Despair Influence to give minimum 4 damage to Carver. Candy gives him Fast. Get Archie in charge range of Carver (Hinamatsu/BB Kade Lures). That's 3 attacks of Stat 7 vs Df 4 with minimum damage 4, so no more Archie.

But again, the best way to deal with Archie is to have Archie wasting activations doing stuff he does not want to do.

 

[Mycellanious]

50 minutes ago, diki said:

Historically I have mainly suffered versus Archie with Marcus.

But I would be more interested in hearing suggestions for Pandora! Who I guess may have some more options if I can use mood swings to control when archie activates to some extent. (Obviously the main woe features are not going work on archie, but I'm trying to learn that keyword anyway)

I'm surprised to hear this, I've found Marcus one of the best at handling Archie! This, for me, is because Marcus' crew is both fast enough to play positioning games with Archie, very survivable with the right upgrades, and has access to Cojo, who I think is phenomenal at killing models like Archie! Cojo is Wp 7, so its not very taxing to for him to pass Terrifying duels (especially with Marcus' card draw). In addition, he has a 2/4/6 damage track, so 2 Severes kills Archie and he cant do anything to stop that. Combine this with the fact that Cojo can trivially achieve a triple to his damage flip (which cancels out Hard to Wound), and Archie usually dies in a single activation if he goes anywhere near me. To achieve his triple , Activate some other models first and place scheme markers near Cojo turn 1, so that Cojo can use his Bonus Action to remove them and gain Focus. Use Marcus to give Cojo the Formidable Horns upgrade. Then, you Charge in, spend Focus, and either cheat for a Ram, or use Adaptive Evolution to get a Ram for the Puncture trigger. Then you push Archie away, and Charge again (assuming you didnt Adaptive Evolution away your Formidable Horns with the first attack) and bam you have 2 Straight or Positive flips for damage against Archie. With his stat 4 Def to Cojo's stat 6 attack, Archie really doesn't stand a chance (in my experience)

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 hours ago, diki said:

But I would be more interested in hearing suggestions for Pandora! Who I guess may have some more options if I can use mood swings to control when archie activates to some extent. (Obviously the main woe features are not going work on archie, but I'm trying to learn that keyword anyway)

Pandora can do 6 damage with self loathing from 15 inches away, so that is a key bit of offense. If you can mood swings Archie, it should be super easy to beat his health down. His survivability is his mobility.

EDIT: what crew is he using Archie with? Forgotten?

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 hours ago, diki said:

Against ressers I find it's hard work even killing a scheme runner whilst at the same time Archie will be leaping round removing a peice a turn.

😭

I think this is the critical information here. You probably have too many models going out on their own. Archie feasts upon models without support. You need to have models positioned to counterattack him after he does his thing.

And be cautious of hiring weak models he can kill in two attacks. He will consistently remove then with little counterplay.

[Ogid]

@Mycellanious Not sure if I asked you this before but, how do you play Marcus to get that much card draw and not be hand starved?

I don't like facing Terrifying with his crew because he already kind of terrifying himself having to get a 6 to make a beast move or charge; adding to that a Terrifying duel is crippling. It's true Cojo has a good Wp value, but every other beast has a 5 or 4 as a Wp and there is no Ruthless beast (at least no with him as the master).

I usually play Marcus for his mobility, so I end splitting the crew most of the time; which doesn't help to get draw with the 6'' aura (this might be my playstile tho). Do you play it in a bubble? In which kind of pools? How do you handle crews better at combat than him or anti-charge tech? Just in case, I'm asking about NVB Marcus.

On 10/21/2020 at 5:40 PM, diki said:

Historically I have mainly suffered versus Archie with Marcus.

But I would be more interested in hearing suggestions for Pandora! Who I guess may have some more options if I can use mood swings to control when archie activates to some extent. (Obviously the main woe features are not going work on archie, but I'm trying to learn that keyword anyway)

You already has 2 good ways to handle him with both crews (also pick the Rider with Pandora to have another good model at punishing him without having to pass Terrifying duels); however the best takeaway is that you can't kill him unless the other player gives you an opening, he is too mobile...

Another model worth looking at with Marcus is the Rougarou; it's not necesarily good versus him with his Wp of 5, so I don't recomend you to pick him specifically to kill Archie. But if you happen to be playing him in a game where Archie is also in, mind he has a Flay trigger and a Puncture trigger; both let him bypass H2W if you have the right cards in your hand (and he has Horns or Focused).

If you play double master, consider taking the Dreamer as a tech piece versus him with Pandora in some games. He already works well with her, with Serene Countenance and without Archie being able to get Focused, he is hardly a threat for the boy. And the best part, his Diversion aura shuts down Archie's mobility; if he goes in, he will be pinned down (and you could even activate Pandora's aura to reduce it to Mv2 and make almost impossible for him to disengage or move away from the aura).

[Mycellanious]

17 hours ago, Ogid said:

@Mycellanious Not sure if I asked you this before but, how do you play Marcus to get that much card draw and not be hand starved?

I don't like facing Terrifying with his crew because he already kind of terrifying himself having to get a 6 to make a beast move or charge; adding to that a Terrifying duel is crippling. It's true Cojo has a good Wp value, but every other beast has a 5 or 4 as a Wp and there is no Ruthless beast (at least no with him as the master).

I usually play Marcus for his mobility, so I end splitting the crew most of the time; which doesn't help to get draw with the 6'' aura (this might be my playstile tho). Do you play it in a bubble? In which kind of pools? How do you handle crews better at combat than him or anti-charge tech? Just in case, I'm asking about NVB Marcus.

I play Arcanists, however I almost always stay in Keyword so the same tactics could be used in Neverborn. The exception to this is obviously Magical Training, which definitely helps, but even without that Keyword Marcus has some great card draw. When Marcus himself Activates he draws you a card from Turn 2 on due to Guided Evolution + Primal Domain. I always take Myranda and her Bonus Action likewise draws you a card near Marcus. Then, it comes down to crew selection, since some models are more card intensive than others. I like to take 1-2 Order Initiates. They dramatically reduce card pressure, both because they don't need Chimeramancy to put new upgrades on models, and can use either their Bonus Action or Adaptive Evolution to draw me cards (primarily their bonus). Then finally when Cojo uses Adaptive Evolution he draws a card. So in general I draw 3-4 cards a turn guaranteed, and occasionally get a Surge trigger here or there. 

Now as far as card costs, Marcus takes 6's, which has around a 60% chance of success. So assuming you use it on Cojo 3 times you would need to cheat 1-2 cards (which is honestly a best case scenario, since a lot of the time Marcus isn't in position to use it 3 times). Cojo has WP 7 to Archie's Terrifying 12, so you expect to pass Terrifying 70% of the time, meaning in order all 3 of the Triggered attacks and Cojo's attacks to pass you would expect to cheat 1-2 times. Then obviously you would need to actually hit Archie with an attack, but this should happen fairly often since you have a stat 6 + focus against Def 4. 

The kicker is that you don't actually need all of these attacks to hit, you only need to hit twice for Severe of 6. This means you have 5 chances to succeed on attacks, and you can let 3 fail, which dramatically reduces the cards you need to get the kill. So while its certainly not a guarantee, more often than not Cojo will be able to do it, barring whatever the rest of the game state is. 

It may also be playstyle differences; I play Marcus in a bubble to start with and branch out on later turns, the exception being lone scheme runners like the Rattler/Cerberus. This doesn't affect card draw because the Ratter has no way to discard upgrades anyway, and the Cerberus is almost always going to hang on to its wings. 

[Ogid]

Ty for the detailed answer.

The faction and playstyles are definitely factors, ARC upgrades enable marcus in a way NVB can't.

My playstyle rely much more in the mobility and shenanigans than in pure hitting power so I draw 1-2 cards per turn at most and my crew scatters in turn 1, early turn 2 as the latest. Myranda is not always with Marcus, but either helping a model to run a flank or shapeshifting into something. Cojo is still able to deal a ton of damage in NVB (and IR on him is quite good), but NVB doesn't have the equivalent of a Saber with SS cache, who is a real dealbreaker. I have to use the Initiates more tho, it might help me to get some draw, but I as I don't favor the bubble playstile, I almost always leave them out.

It doesn't help I like NVB beast too much and most of my lists are almost entirely purple (but Myranda and/or Cojo), so no adaptive evolution (nor free  to defense for most of my crew) for me XD.

I'd say that Marcus + Cojo would need 3 attacks most of the time to kill Archie tho, getting 2 Severes isn't easy; but still doable if Archie exposes himself. Cojo loaded with Focused helps a lot to relieve pressure from the hand.

[diki]

Thanks everyone for all the advice. I was mainly talking about Archie in forgotten/Molly.

With Molly, she's can choose a mixture of card draw or end of turn activation advanatge by either removing markers for cards, or re-activating minions and using them twice before Archie. If Archie is there to kill things - Versus Pandora (maybe dreamer) I would expect him to have have killer instinct for ruthless to bypass terrifying and manipulative, otherwise probably whisperer to make leap easier (or maybe the regen one if he wants to hold a position somethign like claim jump)


@Mycellanious When you say use it on Cojo 3 times you mean over 3 turns? He can't give him three upgrades in one turn, and Cojo has no notable defense without an upgrade. If I don't give him a defensive upgrade turn 1 he's likely Archie's target.

 

[Mycellanious]

39 minutes ago, diki said:

Thanks everyone for all the advice. I was mainly talking about Archie in forgotten/Molly.

With Molly, she's can choose a mixture of card draw or end of turn activation advanatge by either removing markers for cards, or re-activating minions and using them twice before Archie. If Archie is there to kill things - Versus Pandora (maybe dreamer) I would expect him to have have killer instinct for ruthless to bypass terrifying and manipulative, otherwise probably whisperer to make leap easier (or maybe the regen one if he wants to hold a position somethign like claim jump)


@Mycellanious When you say use it on Cojo 3 times you mean over 3 turns? He can't give him three upgrades in one turn, and Cojo has no notable defense without an upgrade. If I don't give him a defensive upgrade turn 1 he's likely Archie's target.

 

Ah I meant use Call of the Wild to order Cojo to Charge 3 times / manouver him into position. 

Archie shouldnt be able to kill Cojo in one Activation, without Focus it would require 2 moderate hits and 1 weak flip which is quite unlikely

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Ah I meant use Call of the Wild to order Cojo to Charge 3 times / manouver him into position. 

Archie shouldnt be able to kill Cojo in one Activation, without Focus it would require 2 moderate hits and 1 weak flip which is quite unlikely

He can do 9 damage reasonably consistently (and when hitting three times, he is actually more likely to do 10+ damage IIRC). So a couple of pings from other sources and there's quite a decent chance of killing Cojo without protection/backup. And the threat range for that is ~15".

So you still need to consider how your crew as a whole is putting pressure. If Cojo is just chasing Archie around the board, Cojo will die first for sure. Although that said if you can setup bursting him down with extra movement and double rams triggers, sounds solid!

10 hours ago, diki said:

Thanks everyone for all the advice. I was mainly talking about Archie in forgotten/Molly.

With Molly, she's can choose a mixture of card draw or end of turn activation advanatge by either removing markers for cards, or re-activating minions and using them twice before Archie. If Archie is there to kill things - Versus Pandora (maybe dreamer) I would expect him to have have killer instinct for ruthless to bypass terrifying and manipulative, otherwise probably whisperer to make leap easier (or maybe the regen one if he wants to hold a position somethign like claim jump)

This is it exactly. Unless the Molly player is willing to let Archie die, she can keep him far too safe (especially if she is saving a card to cheat initiative to get him out of trouble again, though that typically isn't necessary). That's why I suggest on setting up a part of the map where you can kill him if he comes to that part of the map - and then ensure that part of the map is key to victory in some way.

[Ogid]

On 10/25/2020 at 6:55 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

He can do 9 damage reasonably consistently (and when hitting three times, he is actually more likely to do 10+ damage IIRC). So a couple of pings from other sources and there's quite a decent chance of killing Cojo without protection/backup. And the threat range for that is ~15".

Cojo without protection is very vulnerable, but no Marcus player will ever let Cojo go down like this; that model is as valuable as the master. He will have wings and IR/SS cache most of the time (and will probably be near of Myranda for the flips in defense and to patch him up). He can be killed, but not that easy.

On 10/25/2020 at 6:55 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

So you still need to consider how your crew as a whole is putting pressure. If Cojo is just chasing Archie around the board, Cojo will die first for sure. Although that said if you can setup bursting him down with extra movement and double rams triggers, sounds solid!

This is true, while in a Vacuum Marcus + Cojo can ruthlessly kill Archie; in a real game that's not going to happen. Even if he is a personal favourite of mine, the poor Marcus has more holes than a gruyere cheese (specially played as NVB) and RES has all the tools to abuse them. I'd never pick Marcus into RES tbh...

Just to name a few reasons:

Von Schook is a very popular and strong master that shuts him down in every possible way and that's actually legit in some of the same pools than him: Upgrades? Nope. Need to target to move/obey your beasts? Tough Luck. The master cannot make other models charge if he is stunned? Almost every model in the crew has an ability to give stunned (a stunned Marcus is actually quite sad to see in the table, I learnt this the hard way versus Pandora). 8SS schemers? Laugh in Necropunk. Expensive models? Ty for the fat summons. About the stunned, Summoned Kirai's Drowned has also it built in.

Seamus: Marcus' models are the kind of models that in every thread asking how to play versus him everyone say DONT PICK THAT. The entire marcus crew but Myranda are DONT PICK THATs; but Marcus himself is quite useless on his own and cannot support non-beasts so getting OOK models will result in a quite underpowered list (Here ARC are a bit better with SS cache and the Captain to protect the beasts, but not much better).

Marcus' crew has also 0 condition removal and his crew is an expensive elite crew that he has to buff in game using resources; any crew able to debuff his models put him in a tough situation because he don't have that many SS to include a support and that one will struggle to keep up with the crew; but he will need that third support if conditions are comming. Crews like Molly or Jack can make his crew very ineficient. Also Jack loves his upgrades, free cards for him.

Toshiro just destroys him: Marcus can only order Charges and Charge through get to damage when charging; a well positioned Ashigaru make most models almost untouchable for the crew. I'd expect to see him in versus Marcus.

Manos and Archie are also tough for the crew. Leap is very good to ignore both Disguised and Butterfly Jump. On top of this Manos has also Extended Reach and Archie is immune to conditions and NVB Marcus plays a lot with them.

The ton of terrifying models is also tough for Marcus when Cojo is the only model that can attack them semi-efficiently.

[Ogid]

@diki I just noticed we all overlooked Hayreddin; take a look at him as he is another model able to punish him if he goes out of position. He will need to pass the Terrifying duels, but he can kill him in one activation with just 2 min damage attacks and the bonus action (plus 2 SS for triggers and sacrificing 4 Wds)