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Ricochet trigger and "another" meaning


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He everyone.

In this topic I saw a discussion about Another model and Ricoshet - https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/151618-maniacals battle-reports-strategic-analysis/

 

Looks like we need a serios clarification for this case. 

Ricochet trigger says : Choose another model within 3" of the target. 

I have always read it as I should choose a model different to the target. You know, it's like ricochet works IRL - bullet hit something, change direction and goes to another target :) 

But then we got Neverborn's FAQ:

Quote

 

1. Nekima – Can Nekima Push and take a y Action as a result of a friendly Nephilim model being killed within range of her Enraged By Insolence Action?

a) No. “Another” always refers to “not the model from which this text is written” except in those instances where the model in which “Another” is written would not always be a legal subject of the sentence, such as “Another Scrap Marker”, or “Another enemy model”. In such cases, “Another” will never refer to the previous legal subject.

 

It says that another means not the model from which the text is written. So in case of Ricochet it's not a shooter. So it could be the same target and Ricochet can hit one target twice which is silly.

Please note that not all Malifaux players and native English speakers, so we really need clarification of "Another" meaning. I would be glad to see some discussion and different point's of view, especially from native english players, thank you :) 

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The other point of view from the above thread was that the shooter satisfies the "where the model in which “Another” is written would not always be a legal subject of the sentence".

Since the shooter isn't always within 3 inches, it wouldn't 'always' be a legal subject.

There's several degrees of vagueness here.

However I think there's some old threads on this, as it has come up several times before I think.

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Since the shooter isn't always within 3 inches, it wouldn't 'always' be a legal subject.

This case looks easy for me. "Legal subject of the sentence" it's not the same as "legal target according to game rules". There is an example - Another Scrap Marker - model is not a marker, so it's not a subject of the sentence. 

But didn't help us with Ricochet. It looks like it was more clear before FAQ appears :) 

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Short Answer - In my view as a player, the FAQ on Nekima changed the rules in unexpected ways.

Triggers like Riccochet and My loyal helper worked fine on the common view of "Another". But they don't really work properly (Or rather probably work too well) if Another can also be the original target. 

I would hope that the next FAQ changes the Nekima answer to allow "Another" to work as everyone thought it did before. Because, strictly, until then you can hit a target and then Riccochet the bullet back into the same target.  (I mean, it has happened in real life but its extremely rare for someone to get hit twice by the same bullet). 

Personally I am not going to use that view of Another for myself as I don't want to get into the habit of being able to do it, when I expect it will be prevented next FAQ, but I'm not going to say anything if my opponent does it. 

 

(Edit - just to say I think the argument that Riccochet can hit the original target depending on the position of the Shooting model to be not in keeping with the rest of Malifaux, but it is the difference between Another Model (within 3") and Another (Model within 3") in terms of the exception).  

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A Dissertation, By Biletsky

Prior to FAQ

The text of the My Loyal Servant trigger breaks any notion of an intuitive definition for "another"

Quote

My Loyal Servant: Another model (other than this model) within 3" of the target Heals 1/2/3.

If every "another" trigger/action had a parenthesis clarification, it would make sense as a primary rule, clarifying exactly which models can or cannot be chosen. But it's not on every one, which implies there exists a "base case" for what "another" means, and that "(ottm)" alters this base case to mean something different.

  1. Does "another" = "non-target"?
    • Does "another (ottm)" seek to change the meaning to "not this model"?
      • Then why use "another," just use "a model ottm"
    • Does "another (ottm)" seek to change the meaning to "non-target AND not this model"?
      • Then why the parenthesis? Parenthesis are for clarification/reminders, not primary rules like specifying who cannot be targeted. You would never see "target an (enemy) model." Use "another model ottm."
  2. Does "another" = "not this model?"
    • If so, why would you even need the additional text? You wouldn't, implying that the base case must be #1

Post FAQ

As per FAQ, this "(other than this model)" additional text literally does nothing. It only serves to confuse through inconsistency.
 

Quote

 

1. Nekima – Can Nekima Push and take a y Action as a result of a friendly Nephilim model being killed within range of her Enraged By Insolence Action?

a) No. “Another” always refers to “not the model from which this text is written” except in those instances where the model in which “Another” is written would not always be a legal subject of the sentence, such as “Another Scrap Marker”, or “Another enemy model”. In such cases, “Another” will never refer to the previous legal subject.

To Clarify:

  • Base Case: "Another" always refers to "not the model from which this text is written"
  • Exception:
    • If the model in which "Another" is written would not always be a legal subject of the sentence
      • Ex: “Another Scrap Marker” (this model cannot be "another scrap marker" because it is a model)
      • Ex: "Another Enemy Model" (this model cannot be "another enemy model" because it cannot be an enemy to itself)

Note that the exception is "always be a legal subject of the sentence," NOT "always be a legal choice as per game rules." In the two cases above, the relevant questions are: Can this model always be a scrap marker? Can this model always be an enemy model? If the answer is no, then "another" means non-target. If the answer is yes, then "another" means "not the model from which this text is written"

Now let's apply this ruling to the Ricochet trigger.

Quote

Ricochet: Choose another model within 3" of the target. That model...

To evaluate the meaning of "another" in this sentence, we need to determine "If the model in which "Another" is written would not always be a legal subject of the sentence." Therefore we ask ourselves the relevant question, like above:

Can this model always be a model? - Yes

Therefore, Ricochet's "another" refers to "not the model from which this text is written," and you can Ricochet onto the target.

Addressing Devil's Advocate:

The only argument I see from the opposite side is claiming that the "subject of the sentence" is "model within 3" of the target" and thus the relevant question is instead:

Can this model always be a model within 3" of the target? - No, therefore "another" refers to "other than the target"

Now, it's been a long time since I've taken high school english, but I believe this doesn't hold up, as "model" is the subject of the sentence, and "within 3" of the target" is... uhhh... any english majors out there? It's some kind of phrase. Prepositional phrase? Point being, it's definitely not the "subject of the sentence" as per academic english sentence structure.

FAQ Quick Solution

Assuming Wyrd does not want Ricochet to be able to choose the target.

The FAQ should have just eratta'd Enraged By Insolence to specify "a friendly Nephilim other than this model" and specified "another" to continue to mean non-target. They should also specify if "another (ottm)" is "non-target AND not this model" or just "not this model."

Option 2 would be to keep everything as is, but change "Ricochet" to state "enemy model" - this does have some different implications for Gremlins than the above option, since some models are forced to declare ricochet but will never ricochet onto friendly models.

Complete Solution

The Full Rules for Malifaux needs a paragraph on "Another" which explains the following:

  • Another model within 3" => A model other than this model
  • A non-target model within 3" => A model other than the target
  • Another non-target model within 3" => A model other than the target AND other than this model
  • A non-target marker within 3" => To replace the case where "another" is referring to something other than a model legally

And then errata a bunch of cards. Unlikely to happen, perhaps if we get a M3.5E (majority of the rules staying the same but some crews getting reworked)

 

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I agree with everything that you said @Biletsky, but I think that the most elegant solution (in the case that Wyrd never wanted for Ricochet to affect the target of the attack) would be just to rewrite the Ricochet trigger to: "Another model within 3":new-Pulse: of the target (ignoring LoS?) suffers 1/2/4 damage that can not be cheated".

 

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