So, uh, how does anyone beat the Dreamer?

[Sarah Cole]

My partner and I just played our most ridiculously unbalanced game of Malifaux yet. I played Mah Tucket and he played Dreamer. I tried to keep away from his heavy hitters, snipe his bigger models off quickly, and avoid Willpower duels where possible.

 

But it's just not possible to win every single Willpower duel. He had the Dreamer and the Widow Weaver summoning. By the end of turn 3, he had 8 more models on the board than I did. We called the game after turn 4 because I just didn't have enough AP left to do anything against his onslaught of models, and the game wasn't much fun for either of us at that point.

 

I've looked around for tips on how to beat the Dreamer, and it seems to boil down to "hit him hard, fast," but... that just doesn't seem to work. Nor does "just ignore him" work, either. He still gets enough minions out that I have to kill some of them if I want to be able to get off any schemes. Can anyone give some more tips? Particularly for a Bayou player?

[dannydb]

Really concentrate on your schemes and achieving them. Try to pick schemes that mean you don't have to outlast your oppenent and try to stop them from scoring that than killing everything 

 

Kill the models that dreamer can't summon back (widow, Serena LCB) and if you can get at day dreams kill them to slow down lucid dream 

[Maniacal_cackle]

You say WW was summoning stitched - just to make sure, he was using scrap or stuffing tokens to do that?

He shouldn't (easily) be able to summon turn one with WW.

EDIT: also if you can share the scenario and lists you played that'll help

[Jesy Blue]

With Mah, I think your problem was you played keep away.  With all the Focus you should have gone hard into them and utilized your Ruthless upgrades to hit hard first.

[Scoffer]

Do you have any other Bayou masters? I know how to beat Dreamer with Ophelia, Zipp and even Ulix, but not Mah (because Tricksy is the weakest keyword in faction).

2 hours ago, Sarah Cole said:

I've looked around for tips on how to beat the Dreamer, and it seems to boil down to "hit him hard, fast," 

That's true. You must apply as much pressure as possible in early game. Start building your list with a couple of hard hitting models with Inferiority Complex. Most Dreamer players don't like it when you kill their precious LCB and spend a lot of resources to save him - even if you don't succeed (which is unlikely) you burn enemy stones and good cards which means less summon in future.

Also you should reveal your schemes as fast as possible. It spares you some resources to concentrate on scoring strategy and preventing enemy from scoring.

[GrumpyGrandpa]

8 hours ago, Scoffer said:

Do you have any other Bayou masters? 

In my games, we always declare Masters at the same time, so I can't change my Master based on his pick. But;

8 hours ago, Scoffer said:

That's true. You must apply as much pressure as possible in early game. Start building your list with a couple of hard hitting models with Inferiority Complex.

This is my tactic aswell. But even then, Dreamer still seems like a hard Master to take down. I've also had luck bringing models such as Gracie, who can speed up another model (and give Focus, if you have the Tome). She also has good Willpower.

Often, it feels like I win only when I have a better starting hand than my opponent. Not sure if I'm alone in that, though 😅

[Scoffer]

7 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

We always declare Masters at the same time in my games, so I can't change my Master based on his pick.

You can expect your opponent to pick Dreamer and pick your master based on this expectations. 

[Plaag]

i tried to play against dreamer and if opponent playes not bad it is almost impossible to win; the main dreamer stratagy is to run to your crew; such band as 3 stitched, widow weawer, serena, 2 daydreams with ups just kill all your band; stitched are imbalanced-6hp+armour and 3/4/5 dmg track is insane,weawer summones stitched easier than dreamer; atack ignoring incorporial and armour is not fair; summoned models places in the field where they are need; a lot of duels that are not important to dreamer becomes killing for opponent; and lucid start to work from 3 turn when in double neg u can find moderate; and lucid for stitched gives free space not in your hand

[Maniacal_cackle]

I agree Dreamer is massively overtuned and probably needs a nerf. He starts out strong and progresses to god-mode.

That said, I'm going to go a different direction from the others here. I don't necessarily advise hitting Dreamer hard and fast. Even if you remove lots of models, he will summon lots more. That sort of grindy game is really where Dreamer wants to be.

Instead I'd focus on quickly securing your objectives, THEN smashing him really hard. For example, last season I would plant three explosives turn one and then could send my team to smash the enemy/slow them down (at least, worked against Kirai). Against a summoner, they're generally going to be favoured to win a brawl, so you want to secure a lead in points before committing to a (losing) brawl.

But if he isolates pieces/sends them out on their own, blow them up.

N.B. I play and vs. mostly scheme-y melee crews, so my advice may not apply as well to all crews. But I used to main dreamer! I quit him because he seemed too overpowered.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I agree Dreamer is massively overtuned and probably needs a nerf. He starts out strong and progresses to god-mode.

That said, I'm going to go a different direction from the others here. I don't necessarily advise hitting Dreamer hard and fast. Even if you remove lots of models, he will summon lots more. That sort of grindy game is really where Dreamer wants to be.

Instead I'd focus on quickly securing your objectives, THEN smashing him really hard. For example, last season I would plant three explosives turn one and then could send my team to smash the enemy/slow them down (at least, worked against Kirai). Against a summoner, they're generally going to be favoured to win a brawl, so you want to secure a lead in points before committing to a (losing) brawl.

But if he isolates pieces/sends them out on their own, blow them up.

N.B. I play and vs. mostly scheme-y melee crews, so my advice may not apply as well to all crews. But I used to main dreamer! I quit him because he seemed too overpowered.

it doesnt work-turn 3-4 most of your models will be dead; only dashel can work with this

[Adran]

There are several different ways to play the dreamer, and each has its own weakness. Your challenge is to work out quickly how the Dreamer is planning on playing this game, and what is your best beat to beat that route. 

Sometimes that means what you need to do is hit hard and fast to remove parts of his list that he can not replace. Other times it might mean you need to avoid at all costs. Run wide, keep hidden and deny as many Wp duels as you can to start with, and score as many as you can early.  

What is always a bad idea is getting involved in a protracted fight in the middle with the parts of his list that he can replace with summoning. 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

There are several different ways to play the dreamer, and each has its own weakness. Your challenge is to work out quickly how the Dreamer is planning on playing this game, and what is your best beat to beat that route. 

Sometimes that means what you need to do is hit hard and fast to remove parts of his list that he can not replace. Other times it might mean you need to avoid at all costs. Run wide, keep hidden and deny as many Wp duels as you can to start with, and score as many as you can early.  

What is always a bad idea is getting involved in a protracted fight in the middle with the parts of his list that he can replace with summoning. 

i did -17 ss turn 2 for dreamer( 2 daydreams with up and bbs) and then lose; he finished with 53 ss as i remember; it does not work because stitched do so much dmg; also madness have scatter it is so unbalanced

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Plaag said:

i did -17 ss turn 2 for dreamer( 2 daydreams with up and bbs) and then lose; he finished with 53 ss as i remember; it does not work because stitched do so much dmg; also madness have scatter it is so unbalanced

I find what Dreamer really struggles with is the interact action. They're not very efficient for scheming, especially early game. The exceptions are Lord Chompy Bits with Trail of Gore, and to some degree Coppelius with Shifting Sands.

If you can deal with those issues and force a scheme marker war, Dreamer has trouble keeping up (especially since his summons tend to start engaged, can't interact the turn they are summoned, and are movement inefficient compared to true schemers).

The spiders are also something to watch out for if going with this strategy.

But for that level of detail, would be helpful to see a pool/lists.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I find what Dreamer really struggles with is the interact action. They're not very efficient for scheming, especially early game. The exceptions are Lord Chompy Bits with Trail of Gore, and to some degree Coppelius with Shifting Sands.

If you can deal with those issues and force a scheme marker war, Dreamer has trouble keeping up (especially since his summons tend to start engaged, can't interact the turn they are summoned, and are movement inefficient compared to true schemers).

The spiders are also something to watch out for if going with this strategy.

But for that level of detail, would be helpful to see a pool/lists.

no, he have a good position bacause of daydreams and dreamer, also a lot of models to do intaracts; and weadow weawer just drops!!, yes, i mean drops shes marker without any card and than just places at the start of activation; so your model may be in that severe marker its not create; also chompi has his bonus action to remove markers

[Maniacal_cackle]

38 minutes ago, Plaag said:

no, he have a good position bacause of daydreams and dreamer, also a lot of models to do intaracts; and weadow weawer just drops!!, yes, i mean drops shes marker without any card and than just places at the start of activation; so your model may be in that severe marker its not create; also chompi has his bonus action to remove markers

Those are strong for sure, but the spiders are a bit vulnerable (and can only do one relevant interact per turn). The daydreams will need a card to support their movement about 1/3 of the time (initially), and generally need to move as well so only get one attempt at moving a Nightmare. And Daydreams can't enable the double interact. I find Daydreams to be better for abusing engagement ranges. Nightmare models just can't compare to say a crooligan (which can potentially remove 5+ scheme markers a turn without using actions and teleport around the table).

So to OP, I recommend trying to take advantage of being more efficient than him if possible.

That said, overall Dreamer's slightly weak interact game is made up for the massive power level of the crew. Very strong crew!

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Those are strong for sure, but the spiders are a bit vulnerable (and can only do one relevant interact per turn). The daydreams will need a card to support their movement about 1/3 of the time (initially), and generally need to move as well so only get one attempt at moving a Nightmare. And Daydreams can't enable the double interact. I find Daydreams to be better for abusing engagement ranges. Nightmare models just can't compare to say a crooligan (which can potentially remove 5+ scheme markers a turn without using actions and teleport around the table).

So to OP, I recommend trying to take advantage of being more efficient than him if possible.

That said, overall Dreamer's slightly weak interact game is made up for the massive power level of the crew. Very strong crew!

maybe we can find it out in a game?)

[ShinChan]

Actually, with Tricksy you should be able to face him decently. 

3 Bushwhackers

2 Roster Riders + Inferiority Complex

BBB

That gives you enough firepower to get a couple of models killed in turn 1 and 2.

Abuse the Bully ability on the RR to stay out of range thanks to the reposition trigger and go all in with them in turn 4-5. They're specially good to kill the Stitched and anything below 7ss.

BBB should give you the better flips until turn 3 (depending on how many lucid dreams they will be doing).

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

Actually, with Tricksy you should be able to face him decently. 

3 Bushwhackers

2 Roster Riders + Inferiority Complex

BBB

That gives you enough firepower to get a couple of models killed in turn 1 and 2.

Abuse the Bully ability on the RR to stay out of range thanks to the reposition trigger and go all in with them in turn 4-5. They're specially good to kill the Stitched and anything below 7ss.

BBB should give you the better flips until turn 3 (depending on how many lucid dreams they will be doing).

it doesnt work, i tried; have killed bbs 1 turn and 2 daydream with up  first activation at  2 turn, but if u dont kill stitched it all is useless, but if u are focused on killing them 1-2 turn it is useless because of weawer and dreamer

[Math Mathonwy]

On 10/12/2020 at 1:55 AM, Scoffer said:

Do you have any other Bayou masters? I know how to beat Dreamer with Ophelia, Zipp and even Ulix, but not Mah (because Tricksy is the weakest keyword in faction).

Surely both Wizzbang and Tri-Chi are weaker?

As for the question - Dreamer is one of the worst matchups for Bayou as they really lack the tools to deal with him efficiently. You can outplay the opponent but if you are on even footing skill-wise, it's going to be a very, very difficult match, unfortunately.

[ShinChan]

5 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Surely both Wizzbang and Tri-Chi are weaker?

As for the question - Dreamer is one of the worst matchups for Bayou as they really lack the tools to deal with him efficiently. You can outplay the opponent but if you are on even footing skill-wise, it's going to be a very, very difficult match, unfortunately.

Tri-Chi can put their weight, if the strategy require some mobility, the key is to be able to kill Serena early (before turn 3 ideally) and that can be quite complicated.

I don't think Wizz-Bang can do a good job vs Nightmare, although I could see them work (Taxidermist + Inferiority Complex can kill any summon in a single activation).

I also don't agree that Bayou doesn't have the tools to deal with Dreamer. We have a lot of 14" guns and a upgrade that gives any model Ruthless. We have more mobility in general and a bunch of models with Stealth, to force Dreamer's crew to come to us to trigger those Wp duels. I'm not saying it's going to be an easy matchup, but I do think we have some tools to deal with them. Obviously, turn 4-5 are going to be quite uphill and Bayou should be playing to get and advantage earlier to compensate it.

[Thatguy]

What about Pigapult + Sparks? It seems like The Dreamer himself relies on Serene Countenance and Protected as his main defenses. Pulses and blasts get around those. 

Just getting blasts might force an opponent to decide between leaving stuff close to Dreamer and rush blast damage or spread out and give up Protected.

[ShinChan]

24 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

What about Pigapult + Sparks? It seems like The Dreamer himself relies on Serene Countenance and Protected as his main defenses. Pulses and blasts get around those. 

Just getting blasts might force an opponent to decide between leaving stuff close to Dreamer and rush blast damage or spread out and give up Protected.

Even if Dreamer fails the simple duel, it's only 1 damage due to Incorporeal. If you launch a Piglet, you won't be able to declare the Bacon Bomb due to the Diversion aura of Dreamer, and they can easily push it away with an Insidious Madness (or any other model with Terrorize), can execute it with LCB to avoid the Demise and you'll be feeding tokens to the Widow Weaver to build Puppets.

Could it work? Maybe, but it will require a lot of setup for some situational damage that Serena can take care of. I think that the best use of the Pigapult would be that sweet irreducible damage that it could put while being ruthless.

 

[Regelridderen]

On 10/11/2020 at 11:09 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

You say WW was summoning stitched - just to make sure, he was using scrap or stuffing tokens to do that?

He shouldn't (easily) be able to summon turn one with WW.

EDIT: also if you can share the scenario and lists you played that'll help

It’s fairly easy. Teddy can Consume a wicked doll, which gives WW a stuffing token and leaves a scrap marker. 

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Regelridderen said:

It’s fairly easy. Teddy can Consume a wicked doll, which gives WW a stuffing token and leaves a scrap marker. 

That gets you a scrap, but not a stuffing token, the stuff of nightmares needs it to be an enemy model. (unless I've missed something else)

[Scoffer]

1 minute ago, ShinChan said:

Even if Dreamer fails the simple duel, it's only 1 damage due to Incorporeal. If you launch a Piglet, you won't be able to declare the Bacon Bomb due to the Diversion aura of Dreamer, and they can easily push it away with an Insidious Madness (or any other model with Terrorize), can execute it with LCB to avoid the Demise and you'll be feeding tokens to the Widow Weaver to build Puppets.

Throwing two stuffed piglets with Bombs In Your Belly can be devastating even for Dreamer. It's potentially 1*2 from Full Load + 2 from Demise (from Stuffed Piglet #1, that fails duel from second Full Load) + 3*2 from upgrades. A total of 10 damage if Dreamer fails all 3 mv duels. Unfortunately a skilled player will not put Dreamer within Pigapult range without stones and cards in hand.