Good matchup vs. Misaki

[FredSpaghett]

Hello friends.

 

So, me and a good friend started playing half a year back. With no knowledge of master abilities or tier etc. we picked 2 crews that we liked the look of. I liked zoraida, he liked Misaki. Obviously I haven’t received zoraida yet, I have been playing her crew with bases with pictures on them. 
 

We are playing once a month and only versus each other. 
 

we have had pretty even games. I think I won the first, and we have had a few ties. All those first games he didn’t really use his shadow markers to their full potential. This recent game we both feel that he learned how to use them and we feel that his crews synergi outweighs my crews by far.

tbh, I don’t really see the big synergi in my crew. Keep in mind, we are sticking to the keywords of the crews to keep the themes clean. I’m pure swamp themed and he is pure Kung fu themed.

Our question is.... if I where to buy another crew to matchup somewhat evenly versus Misaki (we know that player skills has the greatest impact but we feel like we are very evenly skilled, but that his crew is just pretty overpowered compared to mine) Feel free to correct us if needed.
However.... what’s your take on a crew that matches up  versus Misaki. What has a synergi that would be good enough?

preferably not one that counters, but just one that has a great synergy. Greater than Swampfiend.

 

thanks in advance. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Can you give us an example of the crew you take with Zoraida? She has some pretty crazy synergies, but is a very hard crew to play and build.

EDIT: Oh, and one of his lists if you can remember it. And specific things you struggle with (is it Misaki just assassinating your models?)

[muraki]

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Can you give us an example of the crew you take with Zoraida? She has some pretty crazy synergies, but is a very hard crew to play and build.

Great call out. Especially as a newer player there's various 'ah ha' moments with crews when they start clicking and sometimes it's just 'i brought a model I've ignored for a while'.

Synergy is also tough. I love crews like honeypot/savage for their keyword abilities that you're always thinking about (rather than some keys where the synergy is more hidden), but I'm not sure I'd do great against misaki with a core list in either keyword, so some counter tech/scheme pool specific builds are kind of necessary if someone finds a trick that works real well

[FredSpaghett]

24 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Can you give us an example of the crew you take with Zoraida? She has some pretty crazy synergies, but is a very hard crew to play and build.

I stick with swampfiend.

 

I have

Zoraida

Mctavish

Juju

3 silurids

Bayou Gators

 

 

And as mentioned, it’s important for us that the theme fits thematically so I’m not gonna buy a bunch of models that doesn’t stick with the swamp theme.

I’d rather look for another keyword that right off the bat, competes better/easier

 

His list is the core box and Yasonuri.

 

I’m struggling competing with his mobility. He’s all over the board where he wants to be with all his shadow markers and his Trained ninja upgrades. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 minutes ago, FredSpaghett said:

I have

Zoraida

Mctavish

Juju

3 silurids

Bayou Gators

3 Silurids seems like it might be a bit much. Often they can be really efficient and you can fulfill their duties with even 1. It sounds like you're playing with paper models, so can play any of the swampfiends? I'd try out a bokor and First Mate.

[muraki]

Hm. If you go outside the core box you may have more luck if you try bringing first mate to chase people down or adze/wisps to lure em and bokors for more obey fun.  I know stealth is tough for ranged hits, but targeting through a siliuid would let you get past it.  Also changes if you were playing bayou or neverborn as bayou has some models (like the versatile emissary) who'd be able to helarious chase down his models.

The speed game is tough, as a lot of the more synergistic crews can also be slower as a lot are bubbles.  Stuff like wastel / mercs can keep up but not sure if you'll feel they're as fluffy as last blossom.

What faction did you want to stay in / move to?

[FredSpaghett]

3 minutes ago, muraki said:

Hm. If you go outside the core box you may have more luck if you try bringing first mate to chase people down or adze/wisps to lure em and bokors for more obey fun.  I know stealth is tough for ranged hits, but targeting through a siliuid would let you get past it.  Also changes if you were playing bayou or neverborn as bayou has some models (like the versatile emissary) who'd be able to helarious chase down his models.

The speed game is tough, as a lot of the more synergistic crews can also be slower as a lot are bubbles.  Stuff like wastel / mercs can keep up but not sure if you'll feel they're as fluffy as last blossom.

What faction did you want to stay in / move to?

I’ve been looking at Perdita Ortega and buying the box with the Monster hunter.

I love that theme. 
 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, FredSpaghett said:

I’ve been looking at Perdita Ortega and buying the box with the Monster hunter.

I love that theme. 
 

 

I'd suggest asking for tips in the Guild forum, they'll have loads of specific tips.

[muraki]

16 minutes ago, FredSpaghett said:

I’ve been looking at Perdita Ortega and buying the box with the Monster hunter.

I love that theme. 

Haven't played perdita but feel like she'd have a tough run against misaki with all the stealth she'd be up against.  Also don't know if guild is as good a faction for pure themed lists but the guild forums would be more informed.

[SEV]

If you want to stick with Bayou, The Emissary and Glutony can deal with marker.

Spawn Mother, The First Made and Grootslang seem better choices to keep up with Misaki speed. 

[touchdown]

I don't think Misaki is particularly hard matchup for Zoraida. Her bury protects her a little bit. However, Ototo is WP4 and a juicy target to obey. Charge through on almost every model means when you obey them to charge friendlies you're getting that bonus.

58 minutes ago, FredSpaghett said:

Mctavish

Juju

 

Bayou Gators

If you're struggling with mobility, I'd leave these models behind. Instead try the Spawn Mother. If you think Torakage are annoying, just wait until you're filling the battlefield with Gupps.

Try Grootslang or First Mate for a hyper mobile model of your own. Or maybe both and run with fewer stones.

Also shadow markers are destructible. You can have a silurid pop over and remove them or obey his models to remove his own markers.

[Jinn]

16 hours ago, FredSpaghett said:

His list is the core box and Yasonuri.

Make sure you're using the Errata version of the Yasunori, and are using the Errata rules in general. 

Yasunori was nerfed pretty hard in the Errata.

[FredSpaghett]

I Think What Zoraida is lacking, for me as an inexperienced casual player, is a strong keyword mechanic. 
 

Im looking at Hoffman right now for a good matchup for Zoraida  

[Ogid]

I noticed you named masters from potentially 3 different factions. While that's a personal option, I really recommend you to pick one faction and stick to it as it's the way to give your bucks the best playability (as long as you are willing to mix and match them); also pure themed list aren't (in most cases) the most competitive. If you are restricting yourself to that, you really need to pick those few keyword able to work well alone.

You should be good with Zoraida versus Misaki tho, both are top tier masters able to work well in a wide range of pools; but you'd benefice a lot from versatile and OOK picks.

[Rufess]

On 10/3/2020 at 9:50 PM, FredSpaghett said:

I Think What Zoraida is lacking, for me as an inexperienced casual player, is a strong keyword mechanic. 

Swampfiends is not known for their inner synergy, but on the contrary. Zoraida is one of the most hated master since M2E (cannot speak of M1E without experience) because of her Obey and other control abilities/actions. It only comes worse in the new edition when all actions are now single action.

Every activation of Zoraida can bring significant impact to the game by obeying other models, no matter friendly or enemy, and refreshing both players' hand. Her crew is there to handle any other works that Zoraida does not willing or able to do. Like placing scheme marker or engaging enemy models. Swampfiends models are not supporting nor receiving support from Zoraida, so in extreme case you can build a crew of Zoraida and no other keyword models, aka the good ol' "All Star" crew.

It does not necessary means Swampfiends is a weak keyword. After all the crew with most inner synergy does not win the game, but the crew with most VP does.

[Adran]

On 10/3/2020 at 1:50 PM, FredSpaghett said:

I Think What Zoraida is lacking, for me as an inexperienced casual player, is a strong keyword mechanic. 
 

Im looking at Hoffman right now for a good matchup for Zoraida  

I think the penetrating stench is a strong keyword ability (although one you don't appreciate until you play against it). Buts its not a mechanic you build around. 

The swampfiend synergy you probably want to make most use of is "Eyes in the night". 

Whilst the Last Blossom crew is largely about trying to get those Shadow markers in place to let Misaki go where she wants, The Swamp fiend crew is about getting models in the right place so Zoraida can either use them to cast through, or obey them to achieve what she wants. 

If you want to try another master, then that's always fun, so I'm not going to go against that, but I think the balance between Misaki and Zoraida is better than you think, just because the Misaki player has just worked out a new way to use their crew, there are ways to counter that that you can learn. 

If you're reached a point when you feel one master is much better than another, you could try swapping crews for a game. I always find it easier to see a crews weakness when I play it (largely because I'm hoping like mad my opponent doesn't do X, because that will ruin my plans) than when I face it. 

It is also worth remembering that Malifaux is very much an objective game. Just because 1 master is stronger in 1 set of objectives does not mean that they are stronger over all. Misaki is a killier keyword when you first start playing, but most of the points in a malifaux game aren't scored by killing. Zoraida has some of the best points denial abilities in the game, and Silurids are some of the best scheme runners out there. You can use obey to make opponents models destroy the shadow markers they were going to use, or to remove the scheme markers they just laid as well as using it to get your models to get to the right place or drop a scheme marker (And of course you can use it to make models get extra attacks). 

[FredSpaghett]

Thank you everyone for all your replies.

While you convinced me that there’s probably nothing wrong with Zoraida as a good matchup vs. Misaki, and that she’s a very strong master too, there’s still something I don’t really like about her for now. I’ve decided to move deeper into the Bayou faction as has gotten me Mah and Zipp. I have heard they are more basic and will try to become good at them before I give Zoraida a try again. 

[muraki]

9 minutes ago, FredSpaghett said:

While you convinced me that there’s probably nothing wrong with Zoraida as a good matchup vs. Misaki, and that she’s a very strong master too, there’s still something I don’t really like about her for now. I’ve decided to move deeper into the Bayou faction as has gotten me Mah and Zipp. I have heard they are more basic and will try to become good at them before I give Zoraida a try again. 

Nice!  I like Zipp a lot as he's fast and has some fun ways to mess up opponent's plans (don't forget to charge and 'attack' nothing with a wrastler to remove a shadow marker off misaki, as costs hit before you find out if you have a valid target).  First Mate is also just a fun model to play with.

[Cranky Old Man]

A fun matchup is Nekima into Misaki! Loads of bloodshed!

[blueskies_overhead]

Best crew against Misaki would be a non melee crew that also doesn't rely on her being in a certain place. Anti bury powers like the Marshals would be good too.

Zoraida is quite powerful.  Obey is absolutely devastating used in the right hands. My opponent made short work of my Whiskey Golem with it, one of the best models in the game. 

[blueskies_overhead]

On 10/3/2020 at 5:47 AM, Jinn said:

Make sure you're using the Errata version of the Yasunori, and are using the Errata rules in general. 

Yasunori was nerfed pretty hard in the Errata.

Yeah, it is pretty unbelievable. Nerf plus point increase? Guess Wyrd didn't want him on the table at all? A shame since it is such a great model aesthetically.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, blueskies_overhead said:

Yeah, it is pretty unbelievable. Nerf plus point increase? Guess Wyrd didn't want him on the table at all? A shame since it is such a great model aesthetically.

A lot of people feel that way about the Archie nerf.

Went from very strong to weak enough that many players ditched the keyword.

Althoughhhhh I don't think I can make any claims Molly is too weak myself xD

[Rufess]

6 hours ago, FredSpaghett said:

I’ve decided to move deeper into the Bayou faction as has gotten me Mah and Zipp. I have heard they are more basic and will try to become good at them before I give Zoraida a try again. 

Good call, and welcome to the Bayou. Zipp should be a good match up against Misaki with high mobility and marker removal. You can use Iron Skeeter (and of course other 40mm+ models too) to cover the shadow markers to force Misaki unburying via Sheng or in deployment zone.

[Jinn]

11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

A lot of people feel that way about the Archie nerf.

Went from very strong to weak enough that many players ditched the keyword.

Althoughhhhh I don't think I can make any claims Molly is too weak myself xD

I use (used, in the case of the Yasunori) both, it's really not on the same level. Imagine they also increased Archie's cost by a soulstone on top of his nerf, that's what they did to Yas.

[Adran]

12 hours ago, blueskies_overhead said:

Yeah, it is pretty unbelievable. Nerf plus point increase? Guess Wyrd didn't want him on the table at all? A shame since it is such a great model aesthetically.

Prior to the errata there was some talk about you hiring Yasunori and then selecting your master. I'm sure that was tongue in cheek, but it appeared to be a strong contender for every list regardless of Master or Strategy. Several other models that had a similar cost but were less commonly selected also received a cost increase in that errata (the 4 riders).  

So I'm not all that surprised that there was multiple parts of Yasunori that were altered in the errata. That doesn't mean that the errata wasn't too far. I guess part of this depends on how common you feel a versatile model should be appearing (and how common the designers think is right, and the difference between the two). If you just look at the differences they don't seem all that large, quick reflexes instead of Onslaught, and a lower chance to have free masks. (and the cost increase). 

Generally no one likes it when their models are nerfed, which is not surprising. Yas still does everything it did before, just some of it is slightly worse. It can still get 4 attacks, its just they can't all be against the same target, it can still reduce incoming damage, its just likely to be around 1 point less per attack (probably nearer 1/2 point than 1, because there are many circumstances where it reduces the same amount, and none where it reduced it by more than 1 more than it does now