RCT 11: Scheme Deep Dive: Getting up close and personal.

[Maniacal_cackle]

For our Community thread this time, we're going to take a detailed look at three of the schemes! As always, this thread is intended for new and experienced players alike. Share your insights, share your questions, and let's all get better together!

The schemes we'll be looking at are:

• Take Prisoner
• Hidden Martyrs
• Catch and Release

These are the schemes that involve getting up close and personal with enemy models without killing them. So let's hear everyone's secret tech! Some questions to get the ball rolling:

• How do you isolate a model for these schemes?
• Any particularly potent combinations of models for Hidden Martyrs?
• Any fantastic minions for scoring Catch and Release?
• What are our tools for denying scoring of these schemes?

And anything else you can think of!

[Maniacal_cackle]

So for Take Prisoner, Yin is pretty much the gold standard. But are there others? Dead Rider with Reap seems quite good, and all of Reva's crew is good at repositioning things.

For Hidden Martyrs, Archie + Crooligan is my favourite combo, but there's also likely some potential in our models that can keep themselves safe. Grave golem + canine remains seems like an easy one point, bete noire + any 5 stone model is also very solid as she is super hard to kill, and can usually get into position for the end point. Bone Piles also offer a pretty sweet option for Martyrs' second point.

For Catch and Release... Crooligans and Undergraduates seem like the gold standard. Their By Your Side ability is unparalleled for getting into and out of danger (and Molly can even force last activation to really seal the deal). Bone Pile and Lampad seem like decent options as well, with a mix of mobility and survivability.

For denying Catch and Release, just don't take any extra masters or henchmen and protect your one master. For Take Prisoner, it's hard to build your crew with no legal targets, so instead just make sure to guard your take prisoner options. For Hidden Martyrs, map out all the legal combos before the game and keep them in mind. For all three schemes, denying the second point is MUCH easier, so be ready to do that.

[Sagrit]

My biggest problem with Hidden Martyrs is to force opponent kill a model  This is why i usualy take Martyrs on model that not hard to kill, but hard to avoid. It should be the model that opponent just want to kill even if he knows that it will give you VP.

Archie + Crooligan combo looks nice. Archie can be pain in the *** if not killed and Crooligan can jump away to safety.

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, Sagrit said:

My biggest problem with Hidden Martyrs is to force opponent kill a model  This is why i usualy take Martyrs on model that not hard to kill, but hard to avoid. It should be the model that opponent just want to kill even if he knows that it will give you VP.

Archie + Crooligan combo looks nice. Archie can be pain in the *** if not killed and Crooligan can jump away to safety.

Totally! I find it helpful when your opponent has extra incentives to kill the model (recover evidence for example).

I've definitely messed it up and accidentally tabled my opponent. Denying myself martyrs xD

[Graf]

Take Prisoner: Yeah, Yin all the way. Why settle for a subpar option? Only issue is you're not just telling, but screaming your scheme pick to your opponent, unless you pick Yin in your crew anyway. Be aware of that use it for some mind games.

Hidden Martyrs: I like this one. Scoring VP from your opponent's actions is quite efficient. My survive piece usually is a support model, as it isn't suspicious when they stay back and safe. For Transmortis Undergrads are great, as you can go in with both your models, increasing your chance that your opponent will kill one of them, and port one back and still make use out of it, thanks to their support abilities. For any crew Bone Piles also work, as they tend to keep their distance and have the ability to bury, to get out of trouble.

Catch and Release: Any model with Leap or any port ability, not denied by engagement, work well. Pushes can be handy as well. Necropunks are prime choices for CaR. Hanged are a beater model fit for this scheme. Both can be included in many OOK crews, but any model with similar abilities works well here. Just take care to either pick models, which won't die within a single activation, and/or score on last activation.

 

How to avoid enemy scoring. The most important part with these schemes is deducting your opponent's model choice, but it's hard to give tipps for that online. You'll have to look at your opponent's crew yourself and watch for abilities that would be helpful.

Ports and pushes help to get Take Prisoner picks out of engagement, either yours or your opponent's. For Hidden Martyrs, if you're very sure which models were picked, you could try to kill both within one turn. That's high risk though and not every crew will be able to do that. Ensuring last activation at the end of the game is propably the most applicable way to avoid end-of-game scoring against this scheme. To avoid reveal scoring against Catch and Release, you would have to minimize their chances by not picking 2nd Masters and/or Henchman. Some crew might be able to, others not. The 2nd VP is pretty obvious, you need to either kill or at least engage the model and be done with it. When they straddle close to the centerline, pushes and commands also help moving them back on their side of the board. Again, last activation is key here.

[Maniacal_cackle]

All great points!

18 minutes ago, Graf said:

Take Prisoner: Yeah, Yin all the way. Why settle for a subpar option? Only issue is you're not just telling, but screaming your scheme pick to your opponent, unless you pick Yin in your crew anyway. Be aware of that use it for some mind games.

For this one, I usually don't decide what schemes I'm taking until the very last moment. This means I often hire Yin into pools where I might Take Prisoner, but I don't always take it. That sort of builds in bluffing automatically.

Plus Yin is insane on corrupted leylines, so another good one to bluff with her if Prisoner is in the pool. With a Ride With Me to boost her, she can start disrupting enemy lodestone carriers turn one. I find this particularly effective with Molly (since she almost always has the final activation turn 1).

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

All great points!

For this one, I usually don't decide what schemes I'm taking until the very last moment. This means I often hire Yin into pools where I might Take Prisoner, but I don't always take it. That sort of builds in bluffing automatically.

Plus Yin is insane on corrupted leylines, so another good one to bluff with her if Prisoner is in the pool. With a Ride With Me to boost her, she can start disrupting enemy lodestone carriers turn one. I find this particularly effective with Molly (since she almost always has the final activation turn 1).

I agree that its a good idea to build your list to be able to do 3-4 schemes, because until you know what your opponents crew is, you can't always decide on the schemes to take. (That's an obvious statement for some such as Vendetta that you can't know if you are able to do it until you see their crew, but for Take prisoner I do want the opponents crew to have a good choice prisoner, something OI don't mind living until the end of the game, but that I'm likely to be able to engage) 

[hydranixx]

The easiest VP I've ever scored from Hidden Martyrs is putting Effigy of Fate on a Carrion Effigy. Most opponents will do everything in their power to stop it turning into a turkey. I think there's something very distressing about a harmless Size 1 model turning into an enormous winged Size 3 model, so people naturally try to kill it before it can. Of course, if they avoid killing it by turn 3, then you have a discount Emissary, which can yeet into their crew to switch off healing & Soulstone usage and then start to beat face before dying to give you your 1VP anyway. Alternatively, if your other Hidden Martyrs pick was killed, your Emissary can fly away and castle up with Coffins to keep safe. Effigy aside, I second the Crooligan + Archie tag team.

The Emissary in general is also pretty strong at isolating models for Take Prisoner. However, my personal favourites for this scheme are including things such as Dead Rider for his attack trigger or Rotten Belles to pull their model in, and to rescue your own models. The best part is you don't even need to go after the actual Take Prisoner target; you can easily throw your opponent off your plan by throwing out speculative Lures at models you haven't even taken this Scheme on. Then, when the opponent thinks they have a read on who you're going for, you can just casually walk to engage the actual target. The same tactic can work well for either scoring or faking Catch and Release, though there's a little less subtlety as you can only gun for Henchmen and Masters.

While there are some Catch and Release all stars, I find that this scheme is determined more by the opponent's crew as it does by mine. Should they bring no Henchmen, and a Master that is unlikely to expose itself, it's hard to justify it even with good minions. That said, I do enjoy going for this scheme, and I tend to lean towards Crooligans if I play Forgotten, or Rotten Belles/Necropunks if I play something else. Bringing multiple mobile minions with this Scheme in the pool is a great way to keep your opponents' Henchmen and Masters honest.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@hydranixx all epic points!

The Carrion Effigy one is particularly amazing. And it counts as a 4-cost model even with the upgrade

[dannydb]

For hidden martyrs I realy like models with take the hit so your oppenent doesn't get much choice if your are going to kill them or not

 

Ashigu are then great for this

 

Protected isn't a bad alternative, so if Assassinate is in the pool and your playing kirai then have a random onryo standing near by and it might get you points on deny your oppenent 

[Trample]

On 10/2/2020 at 5:27 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

For Hidden Martyrs, Archie + Crooligan is my favourite combo, but there's also likely some potential in our models that can keep themselves safe. Grave golem + canine remains seems like an easy one point, bete noire + any 5 stone model is also very solid as she is super hard to kill, and can usually get into position for the end point. Bone Piles also offer a pretty sweet option for Martyrs' second point.

I used Bete Noire and a Rotten Belle with GST for this one last night in a Seamus crew. GST is great at helping a Belle stay alive until the end of the game, so between the two of them you have a pretty good shot at one of them staying upright. This was in Public Enemies, in which I favor Seamus for his killing power, but it also means you have the opponent incented to remove these models from the table. Unfortunately I only got a point out of it since he was able to eliminate Bete early and the Belle late in the game. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Trample said:

I used Bete Noire and a Rotten Belle with GST for this one last night in a Seamus crew. GST is great at helping a Belle stay alive until the end of the game, so between the two of them you have a pretty good shot at one of them staying upright. This was in Public Enemies, in which I favor Seamus for his killing power, but it also means you have the opponent incented to remove these models from the table. Unfortunately I only got a point out of it since he was able to eliminate Bete early and the Belle late in the game. 

That is a neat combo!  Definitely seems like something for public enemies, as otherwise both models might live the whole game.

Out of curiosity, how did he eliminate Bete? In my experience she is essentially impossible to kill if you use df or WP attacks (since she can spend the whole game buried if need be). Even Seamus can't one shot her.

[Trample]

8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That is a neat combo!  Definitely seems like something for public enemies, as otherwise both models might live the whole game.

Out of curiosity, how did he eliminate Bete? In my experience she is essentially impossible to kill if you use df or WP attacks (since she can spend the whole game buried if need be). Even Seamus can't one shot her.

Well, at the time ( first activation of round 3) I actually let her die believe it or not. He was attacking with a Convict Gunslinger, burring cards for onslaught, and my intent was to let her die in order to earn a scheme point and then take out the gunslinger with Seamus to remove his tokens. At the time the Belle was in no danger and full wounds and I didn't think I would have a better chance to get the first point. It didn't work out that way unfortunately. Through a black joker and hard to kill the gunslinger survived that round, so I traded a point. I did win in the end, but the gamble didn't prove to be worth it since I thought I could hold him to zero strategy points. In the end i gave up that one.