Help me select a noob-friendly crew I can borrow to a friend while reasonably expanding my collection (have: Viks, Levi; considering: Shill, Parker, Zipp)

[Joza]

Hi gang!

I'm returning to Malifaux since 1st Edition (was a Henchman back then, funny enough), and I'd like to start a small gaming outpost in the local area. Since the people here play mostly boardgames and/or AoS/40k, I decided to just buy in, and borrow the crew(s) to the others.

Had Viks from way-back when, and impulsively bought Levi since I loved the lore from the beginning, but I've heard (from the 3rd Floor podcast about Viks) that Levi is somewhat of a unreasonable matchup for them, and since I considered using the Viks as the "borrow this crew, they are not so difficult to understand, while having some interesting tech and depth", I'd rather not roflstomp my mates with Levi at the crew selection step (yes, I know it's not so one-dimensional, but still).

Since I'd rather focus on expanding one faction, instead of randomly buying into second one (yes, I know I will, but in the meantime, I'd like to have a spread of crews to attend organized play with, and these tend to be dead set on single faction per player...), I started looking into the rest of Outcasts. I really can't do Hamelin or Jack Daw (hate the theme/models), and Tara seems overcomplicated (and I hear she got hit by the GG1 quite a lot), that leaves me with Von Shill, Parker and Zipp to chose from.

What would you suggest would be a good choice, when my intent is to be able to provide a reasonable match-up for Viks/Levi? Or am I just too cautious, and the "Levi is a non-favourable match-up for Viks" feeling only starts to show on a higher-level play?

Thank you for all your wisdom!

[touchdown]

Levi is a tough matchup for the Viks (and I have some ideas about it but it means the Viks going almost entirely ook to deal with his damage) further I think the Viks are a hard master/crew to play for new players. They reward good positioning and punish bad and positioning is one of the harder things to learn in the game imo.

I would say Parker is the best choice. His crew can do all 4 strategies well enough, and doesn't rely on damage reduction.

Von Schill is a forgiving master and keyword so it would be a good option to lend out but the crew uses armor and shielding which doesn't help against Levi (although will help against the rest of the crew).

Zipp is very good too but I don't have a lot of experience with or against him. Almost all his models are bayou so if you go Zipp, you will be branching into another faction. That might be good though. People could try declaring either faction and trying out different upgrades without you needing to spend any more money.

[Adran]

Welcome back. 

I've not listened to the 3rd floor wars podcast, so I can't say why they think its a bad match up, but I would also say that if you are playing a demo game, you're probably not going to be playing your A game anyway, so you can tailor the lists so that Levi is not so bad a match for them.  (but I do agree that Viks are very positional based this edition so possibly hard to use well)

If you are looking to expand into demo crews, then I probably would have recommended Parker or Von Schill, as either a simple concept or forgiving of mistakes. 

Zipp is fun, but a little crazy (as all outcast gremlins should be). 

[touchdown]

The big challenge is that Levi can kill a Vik with 2 weak damage attacks. With no stone reduction, it's just a very unforgiving matchup.

[Regelridderen]

If you want to introduce people to the game, play Henchman Hardcore instead. Its a lot simpler, but shows off most of its aspects - and is a lot quicker. 

[Joza]

Awesome insights, thank you all!

 

3 hours ago, touchdown said:

The Viks are a hard master/crew to play for new players. They reward good positioning and punish bad and positioning is one of the harder things to learn in the game imo.

3 hours ago, Adran said:

but I do agree that Viks are very positional based this edition so possibly hard to use well

Ah, good to know! I identified a lot of obvious movement shenanigans, but still had the "Viks are mobile beaters" mindset, I guess. Good to know that they are possibly not a great pick for an "easy" crew to pilot.

 

3 hours ago, Adran said:

If you are play-ing a demo game, you're probably not going to be playing your A game anyway, so you can tailor the lists so that Levi is not so bad a match for them. 

30 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

If you want to introduce people to the game, play Henchman Hardcore instead. Its a lot simpler, but shows off most of its aspects - and is a lot quicker. 

Thing is, I'll be learning the game at the same time too, so while I'll not be at my A game (for obvious reasons) I wanted to tone down the accidental "bad matchup". I'll give the Henchman Hardcore format a look, though, thank you for mentioning it.

 

Seems like I'll be picking up the Parker crew for the guys to try and pilot, and try to run around with Viks Thank you for steering me in the right direction, I really appreciate it!

 

 

3 hours ago, Adran said:

Zipp is fun, but a little crazy (as all outcast gremlins should be). 

3 hours ago, touchdown said:

Zipp is very good too but I don't have a lot of experience with or against him. Almost all his models are bayou so if you go Zipp, you will be branching into another faction. That might be good though. People could try declaring either faction and trying out different upgrades without you needing to spend any more money.

TBH I kind of really like the crazy Gremlins, and I'm fairly positive these crazy greenskins will be the second faction I'll collect. Love the rednecky-doppelgangery-flying piggy craziness of the models But first to assemble, paint and play with what I have!

[beergod]

I'd go with Parker as he is pretty strait forward to play

 

[Jesy Blue]

My answer is always to go with Zipp.... reguardless of any situations.

Freikorps is a solid second choice, though.

[Zebo]

I may be wrong, but I consider Freikorps easier to understand and enjoy than Bandits. The Barrows gang could be a bit tricky to pay up to its full potential for a newbie. 

[Jesy Blue]

I've found it just the opposite in my teaching games; after hearing the theme, many new players take the wild west theme because it's very familiar, so I've taught that keyword the most.  The ease of being able to use your gun action all the time (charging, melee, standing still) is very freeing to a new player.

It's learning other crews WITHOUT the Run and Gun & Gunfighter afterwards that are hard.

... and who's playing any crew to its full potential as a newbie?

[Azahul]

For the inverse, what would you play against a new player? I've found Outcasts as a rule to be pretty murderous. I can always pick action intensive schemes and strategies that require a lot of interact actions, but there isn't really a Master in the faction that doesn't remove an opponent's models quite comfortably. Maybe Zipp? He's one of the few I don't have, so I'm not super familiar. And Tara's Keyword isn't enormously killy, I suppose. I haven't played her yet because I was waiting for the Void Hunters to release, but I guess handicapping myself and only being able to summon Void Wretches wouldn't be a bad idea into a new player.

[Jesy Blue]

My typical teaching crews are Bandit & Mercenary.  If the noob picks an Outcast crew to learn under, I'll take either Last Blossom or Bayou Infamous to give faction variation, and they are easy concepts to explain (Ninjas & Sky Pirates, respectively).

[jovialevil]

I am a big fan of the Viktorias, especially for players who are learning the game.  You can play a solid 35 SS crew with just three stat cards -- the Viks, your three ronin, and then either Vanessa, Taylor, or Bishop.

 

I think that, whichever second crew you choose, you want to make sure you're taking a full set of at least one minion.  I felt like Viks versus Zoraida (3 Silurids and Bad Juju, with Zoraida not using Threads of Fate, her hand redraw ability) was a good match.  To get something in faction, I feel like Captain Zipp, Earl Burns, 3 Iron Skeeters, 3 Flying Piglets might be a reasonable crew to face the Viktorias. 

 

Whatever you choose, though, I'd aim for something with a bunch of minions.  The basic mechanics of Malifaux seem really easy to understand, resolving duels through the cards that you can occasionally cheat is an *excellent* design, and the biggest drawback to teaching the game is that each character is ridiculously complicated.  Whatever you can do to mitigate that, like setting down only three stat cards that somebody has to look over, seems like a big boon.

 

Also, I've found it very helpful to print all the stat cards in long columns -- that way, people can see both the front and back at the same time.

 

p.s. @Azahul -- Zoraida seemed fine against a new player (without using her tricky action).  Mah with bushwackers and Tricksibelle would probably be good.  Wong with a bunch of lightningbugs and a taxidermist was fine.  Rasputina with a bunch of ice gamin was fine.  But, again, I'd aim for a 35 SS minion-heavy game.

[Burnin4tor]

I know it’s necro-ing a little but I use Taelor + 3 Ronin vs Mad Dog + 3 Bandidos with a couple soulstones either side for my learning games. They feel different to give a taste of various abilities but both are simple to understand the basics of, so a beginner can pick up whichever they like the look of best and get going quite quickly. Also benefit of only 2 cards to look at!

[Trample]

On 11/15/2020 at 8:05 AM, Zebo said:

I may be wrong, but I consider Freikorps easier to understand and enjoy than Bandits. The Barrows gang could be a bit tricky to pay up to its full potential for a newbie. 

You're probably right in that Freikorps are pretty easy to play out of the gate, but I do think they are challenging to play to their full potential. There are a ton of tricks and options for a Von Schill crew with the upgrades, copying actions, the pull trigger on VS, and abilities like I've Got Your Back.  They're easy to start with, but have quite a bit of depth and growth potential.