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Thoon: Sell me this big guy.


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Title. I'll be getting my Gigants sooner rather than later and I'm curious about the Henchman. I see good things in his card, but also others that I don't like that much.

Things I like:

  • Frozen Trophy, the main sell point of the model; potentially very good.
  • Df6, not common in the faction and good to have.
  • Shifting Ice, a way to keep frozen vigor up or move a buried model's ice pilar to safety.
  • Intuition, consistency is always good

Things I dislike:

  • 2/4/6 track without ways to get:+flipto damage or extra actions means he won't be doing a lot of damage without including Focused.
  • Why 2 massive gigants like Euripides and Thoon have mele range 1? The older they are the shorter their arms become? are they related to T-Rexes?
  • Hooked Chain, good stat but again low damage, short range and also a :ranged in a crew creating pilars that give Cover left and right.
  • Artic pull and Freeze the corpse seems extremelly niche; so not useful bonus action in a 9SS model.

Summarizing, He has the threat of Frozen Trophy and Df6 (he is tankier than the average savage, but nothing to call home about); but not high damage nor high mobility or scheme potential... I could see the play to throw him through a pilar to bury something isolated, but not sure how practical that is.

So: Would you say this is a good or top tier model? How often do you include him in your lists? Which role(s) does he fufill in your list? How easy is to bury and keep enemy model buried? Is a doppleganger worth it with him to have the chance to bury 2 models? Do you consider him a worthy OOK tech pick? In which cases?...

Ty in advance!

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He's a good, situational model. The potential strength of frozen trophy is why he doesn't have a strong bonus action, in my opinion. Df 6, frozen vigor, and hard to kill make for a pretty tough model, and having 2 intuitions in your crew means that your card consistency is really high when he's included in your Euripides crew. He's a tarpit, not a beater, and his trophy is better as a deterrent than as your main strategy. If he's sitting next to your gigant gunline, the threat of his trophy is a big deterrent to an opponent overextending.  All that said, I think Thoon only worth it about 20% of the time in a Euri crew, usually when you are expecting an alpha strike or when you think Euripides needs a bodyguard.

You didn't mention Mv6, which is really useful, especially when made incorporeal by the totem. However, his lack of relevant bonus action means he's not really jumping in to alpha or dropping markers to score. He's getting where he needs to be to tie something up and keep in there.

As good as frozen trophy can be, it costs you a high card and often a stone. All it takes to undo is an action from any throwaway model on your opponent's crew. I see it as alpha protection because it can force an opponent to overcommit with multiple models of play a more defensive game. That works for Euripides' gameplan, but the issue is that most factions have pretty good options for mass marker removal, and declaring Euripides is enough for most players to consider that even OOK. I don't think a single Blow it to Hell shuts down Savage as a whole, but it does pretty much negate frozen trophy's usefulness. 

This has been discussed before, but if you're looking to really abuse trophy, you bring Thoon into Lucius. In addition to potentially two more trophy models, lawyers can get Thoon into position and changelings can use his glacial pull to yank popsicles out of the enemy's reach. It possible to trophy something and yank the pillar away in a single Lucius activation if you are using a mimic'd trophy or chaining through a lawyer obey. Trophy gets much better when you have more control over the WHEN and WHERE and you can hire Thoon when the enemy isn't expecting him.

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Ty for the answers!

6 hours ago, Alcathous said:

You didn't mention Mv6, which is really useful, especially when made incorporeal by the totem. However, his lack of relevant bonus action means he's not really jumping in to alpha or dropping markers to score. He's getting where he needs to be to tie something up and keep in there.

Mv6 is better than 5, but I don't see it as a big plus taking in count I don't see many ways to put that in good use (atm at least). Charge range threat is 7, but I'd had been more excited with Movement 5 and mele range 2 than with Mv 6 and mele 1 tbh.

6 hours ago, Alcathous said:

As good as frozen trophy can be, it costs you a high card and often a stone. All it takes to undo is an action from any throwaway model on your opponent's crew. I see it as alpha protection because it can force an opponent to overcommit with multiple models of play a more defensive game. That works for Euripides' gameplan, but the issue is that most factions have pretty good options for mass marker removal, and declaring Euripides is enough for most players to consider that even OOK. I don't think a single Blow it to Hell shuts down Savage as a whole, but it does pretty much negate frozen trophy's usefulness. 

My thoughts exactly, everyone can remove the pilar as an interact action isn't needed; even the lamest engaged insignificant model can do it. And versus Euripides the other player will include tech versus Ice Pilars; which could make hard to make good use of it.

But I suspect this ability is going to be more like Execute, potentially amazing, but hard to use it to the limit (which is fair, taking in count how good the effect is). I see a few ways to make good use of it:

  • The most straightforward way I see to use it would be waiting for the last activations of a turn and brick something unactivated and as big as possible that cannot be unbricked that turn with the remaining models from the other player. The next turn the other player will probably free him without much problems, but making a good model lose a full activation is worth an SS.
  • Thoon missile: Throw him through an ice pilar with a gigant and brick something far away from the other crew. In this case an activated model could be a better target.
  • Back to back Trophy hunt: Combinable with the above, basically timing a end of the turn FT with cheating initiative and then brick the other (probably in a double AP set up and reusing the severe card discarded for the initiative cheating). This will work best when there are only 2 models watching each other's backs far away from the rest of the enemy crew. In that case when one of them activated, thoon brick the unactivated one and then at the start of the following turn, brick the other before it can unbrick his friend. Very card and SS intensive and kind of all in as if it fail both will be free; but potentially good.
  • Kidnap and brick: Lures, WW, Gigant's trigger... basically move the other model into a hard to reach position before.

But I'd like to know about experiences of players doing or failing at it. How easy/hard it was and how much it impacted the game.

6 hours ago, Alcathous said:

This has been discussed before, but if you're looking to really abuse trophy, you bring Thoon into Lucius. In addition to potentially two more trophy models, lawyers can get Thoon into position and changelings can use his glacial pull to yank popsicles out of the enemy's reach. It possible to trophy something and yank the pillar away in a single Lucius activation if you are using a mimic'd trophy or chaining through a lawyer obey. Trophy gets much better when you have more control over the WHEN and WHERE and you can hire Thoon when the enemy isn't expecting him.

I have my doubts for how little he brings aside for that trigger, but I also see him as a potential OOK pick I want to explore because with other crews the ice pilar counters won't show up that often; and there are also potential synergies I'm curious about:

  • Dreamer: LD removing weak cards will make his damage track better and will also empower Intuition. WW is in that crew and can kidnap models for him to brick (that would be expensive as that require 2 non-built in suits, but potentially good).
  • Lucius/Zoraida: As you said, extra AP for him, extra card  draw to get good cards to reuse and Mimics for potential several uses per turn of the trigger or  Lures/obeys to misposition enemy models. Also the following is probably extremelly hard to do, but if the buried model got Zoraida's totem upgrade, that doll and a Bokor could kill him over a few turns while generating a lot of card draw. He is also a good pair with Lawyers as they can give him shielded, cheat a severe card for the obey and then Thoon may reuse that severe card with old ways.
  • Pandora: Mood Swings can make easier to keep models buried by delaying the activations of enemy models able to free them while also having Lures to bring models in and slow to make hard to reach the Ice Pilar. Pandora is also a scary crew to dive to free the kidnaped model. And being in her keyword Lyssas can make a good use of those pilars.

Mainly those 4, not sure of him with the other 3 masters:

  • Marcus: Cojo can push a model 10''; but I'm not sure if I'll find the SS needed to include him and as he is Sz3 and not a beast, also the crew cannot support him in any way and is hard to spare SS or cards for that trigger and is a very fast crew he cannot keep up with. Also for a kidnap combo with the crew, WW into scorpious' Neurotoxins aura for a quick kill will be better than this.
  • Titania: She may reposition enemy models with Into thorns trigger, but she as leader will draw into the other crew the same anti-marker tech that may counter his best trick. 
  • Nekima: She has easy access to corpses, so he could create pilars to get good use of Frozen Vigor; but again another crew too fast for him. Maybe if Lilitus were worth including, he could be worth a shot here.

Again, I'd like to know about real scenarios where players tried him as an OOK pick and succeeded or failed miserabily :P

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14 hours ago, Ogid said:

But I suspect this ability is going to be more like Execute, potentially amazing, but hard to use it to the limit (which is fair, taking in count how good the effect is). I see a few ways to make good use of it:

  • The most straightforward way I see to use it would be waiting for the last activations of a turn and brick something unactivated and as big as possible that cannot be unbricked that turn with the remaining models from the other player. The next turn the other player will probably free him without much problems, but making a good model lose a full activation is worth an SS.
  • Thoon missile: Throw him through an ice pilar with a gigant and brick something far away from the other crew. In this case an activated model could be a better target.
  • Back to back Trophy hunt: Combinable with the above, basically timing a end of the turn FT with cheating initiative and then brick the other (probably in a double AP set up and reusing the severe card discarded for the initiative cheating). This will work best when there are only 2 models watching each other's backs far away from the rest of the enemy crew. In that case when one of them activated, thoon brick the unactivated one and then at the start of the following turn, brick the other before it can unbrick his friend. Very card and SS intensive and kind of all in as if it fail both will be free; but potentially good.
  • Kidnap and brick: Lures, WW, Gigant's trigger... basically move the other model into a hard to reach position before.

But I'd like to know about experiences of players doing or failing at it. How easy/hard it was and how much it impacted the game.

I agree with your assessment. I've had decent luck with a doppelganger lure, who I also like for copying a Cyclops' ice pillar ability T1 if I have a 4tome. The missile option is the least good in my opinion, because that isolated model often isn't worth the resources or is just as easy to kill as it is to turn into a popsicle.

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I agree with @Alcathous, he is niche, 20% take. 

You should already be putting focus onto Savage models anyway, it stacks incredibly efficiently with The Old Ways. Adding Intuition on top of that enables you better card manipulation in order to try to consistently hit that severe 6 damage. However, he competes in this role with Geryon who are cheaper and better beaters with min 3, the same Focus/Old Ways tricks, better triggers (Frozen Trophy aside), and extended reach.

Mv 6 looks attractive, but realistically you have better scheme runners OOK, and you can always use the Gigant Postal Service to deliver them up the table quicker.

Df 6 is always great. Even better when you have cover. Shifting Ice means he can hide behind pillars without having charge issues like Geryons do. But do you care over much about that +1 Df? Like, truely?

So that brings him full circle tooooooo....Frozen Trophy, the 20% solution. It's basically good for temporarily removing a problem piece from the game that would otherwise be a lot of work. The problem you run into is intelligent opponents, play Euripides enough, and at some point they'll figure out that they need marker removal. And 4/7 of the current factions have Blow it to Hell for instance. So you have to look at your match up and say, "am I likely to need to get a model off the table". Examples could be Montressor, Jakuuna who have really gross auras. The Midnight Stalker, a painful to kill schemer, but also an oft lonely bro. Or Ashes and Dust, who can be a pain to handle. If you're going into Von Schtook, it isn't unusual to see the Valedictorian solo charge your crew turn 1 as an alpha. Ikyrio, whom you either need to kill efficiently, or not at all. 

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3 hours ago, Gaston said:

So that brings him full circle tooooooo....Frozen Trophy, the 20% solution. It's basically good for temporarily removing a problem piece from the game that would otherwise be a lot of work. The problem you run into is intelligent opponents, play Euripides enough, and at some point they'll figure out that they need marker removal. And 4/7 of the current factions have Blow it to Hell for instance. So you have to look at your match up and say, "am I likely to need to get a model off the table". Examples could be Montressor, Jakuuna who have really gross auras. The Midnight Stalker, a painful to kill schemer, but also an oft lonely bro. Or Ashes and Dust, who can be a pain to handle. If you're going into Von Schtook, it isn't unusual to see the Valedictorian solo charge your crew turn 1 as an alpha. Ikyrio, whom you either need to kill efficiently, or not at all. 

Some of this is a Local Meta question.

Do your opponents always bring in marker removal when you declare Savage? If you are already finding that they do that, and are removing a lot of the pillars already, then you are probably not going to get the best out of Frozen trophy (actual value may vary).  If they don't do that at the moment, then you have a much better chance of getting amazing value out of that Trophy. 

M3 has very few ways to make models miss activations, so the ability to "paralyse" a model with a single duel as a secondary effect has a lot of potential. Its not always going to be worth it, and there will be times when you will have your opponents able to free them from the pillar. The trick is to make them pay more to free the model than you paid to bury it. (Against some crews, that effective slow to 1 model might be enough pay off, or 2 actions if the model needs to move close enough before breaking the pillar. 

 

My answer would probably be you don't need thoon, and you won't always pick thoon, but there will be games you are glad you have thoon if you do buy him.

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5 hours ago, Gaston said:

You should already be putting focus onto Savage models anyway, it stacks incredibly efficiently with The Old Ways. Adding Intuition on top of that enables you better card manipulation in order to try to consistently hit that severe 6 damage. However, he competes in this role with Geryon who are cheaper and better beaters with min 3, the same Focus/Old Ways tricks, better triggers (Frozen Trophy aside), and extended reach.

Mv 6 looks attractive, but realistically you have better scheme runners OOK, and you can always use the Gigant Postal Service to deliver them up the table quicker.

Df 6 is always great. Even better when you have cover. Shifting Ice means he can hide behind pillars without having charge issues like Geryons do. But do you care over much about that +1 Df? Like, truely?

Df 6 is good on top of being a Henchman and Old Ways; that may make him tanky if the player wants to expend the resources.

Geryons are more straightforward beaters, min 3 and max 6 make them good with and without Focused, but I'm a bit on the fence with them. How hard to kill are they right now? Do you still use IR on them? Maybe it's a playstyle preference thing, but I'm less confortable with 8SS minions beaters (that offer more oportunities to get killed) than with 8SS henchmans beaters; specially when those minions are quite one-dimensional. A Mature can go in scheme/taxy duty if the other player has good models versus him for example. How often do you recommend Geryons? How many? Is making them incorporeal every turn a must to keep them on the table?

Focused has potential with this crew, but I don't like to overuse the BBS (tho it seems a good fit for this crew); also with how big all those models are, a BBS opening with them has to be quite akward XD. But If I'm including the BBS, Thoon is probably going right after him (unless I'm versus H2W and the other crew has good marker removal)

5 hours ago, Gaston said:

Examples could be Montressor, Jakuuna who have really gross auras. The Midnight Stalker, a painful to kill schemer, but also an oft lonely bro. Or Ashes and Dust, who can be a pain to handle. If you're going into Von Schtook, it isn't unusual to see the Valedictorian solo charge your crew turn 1 as an alpha. Ikyrio, whom you either need to kill efficiently, or not at all.

In case of Montressor and Jakuuna kind of models, models that like to be well supported by their crews. What's that sweet point to disable their auras? Doing it too early will make too easy for an enemy model to just unfreeze them, but doing it too late will be a bit of a waste (unless they will lose the activation, which I guess it won't be easy being close to their crews).

9 hours ago, Alcathous said:

I agree with your assessment. I've had decent luck with a doppelganger lure, who I also like for copying a Cyclops' ice pillar ability T1 if I have a 4tome. The missile option is the least good in my opinion, because that isolated model often isn't worth the resources or is just as easy to kill as it is to turn into a popsicle.

It's true the missile option seems to be worth it only for very particular models, either extremelly nimble and hard to kill runners like the first mate or the midnight stalker or extra premium runners like Riders or even second masters used for that role...

Mimics have a lot of potential with this crew; between all the cool tactical actions and also min 3 tracks with range 2 they offer a lot of good targets. Doppleganger or even a Changeling seems useful in that crew, but Savages also seem worth to try with Lucius as master.

In fact when I got a bit more time, I want to try to optimice a pocket strategy double master Lucius/Euripides around that idea: Changelings may copy his rune-etched Ice, Lawyer may obey those to do it again and give Euripides Shielded so he may use Old Ways more liberally and Lucius may obey all them to do it all again, and then Euripides of course can rain even more ice on his own activation. Rune-Etched ice is quite good for this because the TN is fixed, so the ability casted from Changelings is as good as the one from him but requiring an 8 and without the option to reuse the card with old ways. That's the main idea; not sure how good it'd be and it'll probably need an already dense map plus an enemy crew with few movement tricks and without good marker removal, but seems fun to try. That's a lot of shockwave damage and roadblocks (but also a lot of high TNs to reach, which is why this crew is tricky to build; I still need to see how many obeys and card draw need for it to work well).

I'm still thinking about what more to include in that crew... a BBS or the Agent in this set up seems good: the BBS will give me a Mature in turn 2+, a flying model able to maneouver around all those pilars and a good standard damage able to get targeted by issue command, plus some Focused to compensate the hungry hand of this crew; the Agent on the other hand may disable a few model's Armor and Shielded (and can do it with IP active; which will probably be needed as most high cards will be going towards those TNs), disabling those is very effective versus all that 2 damage spam and he may also punish crews overcheating the TNs with his Execute; he has a harder time going around pilars, but he is 30mm and also has on your heels so it's not totally helpless and pilars may also be used to isolate targets for him.

But even a triple Master with Dreamer seems an option, being the boy incorporeal and being able to summon IM that are also incorporeals (but this option brings even more TNs to the crew and the damage of those models isn't that good, so I'm not totally sold with that)... If anyone has suggestions for this crew, I'm all ears :)

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Sell it to you as what?  An all around pick like Serena?  Not possible.  A good henchman in crew?  Easy.  Situational tech piece?  Also easy.

Thoon does a lot of things ok, but at his cost those alone aren't good enough.  The thing that pushes him over the top is (unsurprisingly) his frozen trophy.  Not because you throw him in the middle and start freezing things, but because you stick him in one place, and tell your opponent do not pass go, do not collect 200$.

Thoon's bread and butter is punishing models that want to outrun their crews.  I don't mean the small stuff like a crooligan or a necropunk.  I mean the big stuff.  Lucky Emissary, Carlos, Coryphee Duet, Archie, etc.  Want to try and play around him?  You're sending at least one backup model, usually a pretty good one, which further divides your crew up.  Sometimes you can't even play around him and get stuck with a 10 stone paperweight (see Lucky Emissary).

Yes you can do some cute stuff with Lucius, and Thoon is probably good in every situation with Euri due to shifting ice, but his main schtick is hard area denial.  Walking into a bubble like Daw to try and stop Monstressor or the like is probably not the best idea unless you can get some slick double activation off to pull the pillar away.

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On 9/29/2020 at 11:52 AM, Nagi21 said:

Sell it to you as what?  An all around pick like Serena?  Not possible.  A good henchman in crew?  Easy.  Situational tech piece?  Also easy.

Thoon does a lot of things ok, but at his cost those alone aren't good enough.  The thing that pushes him over the top is (unsurprisingly) his frozen trophy.  Not because you throw him in the middle and start freezing things, but because you stick him in one place, and tell your opponent do not pass go, do not collect 200$.

Just defining it, as you say the model has a lot of mediocre things for a 9SS model, not having even a tactical action worth in most scenarios nor any way to generate an extra action; but he got also some neat thing and Frozen trophy is unique so I'm on the fence with him. I was just wondering how much success people was having using him and in which scenarios he is worth it. Do you use him a lot with the crew or only ocassionaly?

On 9/29/2020 at 11:52 AM, Nagi21 said:

Yes you can do some cute stuff with Lucius, and Thoon is probably good in every situation with Euri due to shifting ice, but his main schtick is hard area denial.  Walking into a bubble like Daw to try and stop Monstressor or the like is probably not the best idea unless you can get some slick double activation off to pull the pillar away.

So in which scenarios do you find useful using a 9SS model as area denial?

The back to back activation could be neat tho; specially if it's Thoon + Euripides (who has a 10'' push for the ice pilar); but I guess that depends a lot on the enemy crew, there are very mobile models able to reach that even when it's pushed.

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On 9/30/2020 at 11:14 AM, Ogid said:

Just defining it, as you say the model has a lot of mediocre things for a 9SS model, not having even a tactical action worth in most scenarios nor any way to generate an extra action; but he got also some neat thing and Frozen trophy is unique so I'm on the fence with him. I was just wondering how much success people was having using him and in which scenarios he is worth it. Do you use him a lot with the crew or only ocassionaly?

So in which scenarios do you find useful using a 9SS model as area denial?

The back to back activation could be neat tho; specially if it's Thoon + Euripides (who has a 10'' push for the ice pilar); but I guess that depends a lot on the enemy crew, there are very mobile models able to reach that even when it's pushed.

I put it in the part you didn't quote.  Anything where someone wants to get behind you for a scheme.  Spread, breakthrough, etc.  Shuts down any kind of burrow/teleporting model (soulstone miner), Collette isn't going to enjoy him because she can't TP to them when frozen and her crew likes to go in 9 different directions by themselves, Mah has issues because she can't be as mobile as she likes, and the emissary is a popular pick, which gets completely shut down, etc.

If the pool is gonna be a scrum around the middle he's very rarely worth taking OOK, but if you're playing vs a scheme-strong master or in a scheme heavy pool, he's one of the few models that can funnel those hard to catch crews where you want them.

Like I said he's not for the normal scheme runners.  You shouldn't be hiring him just to freeze a lone Necropunk because someone picked Leveticus.  There are plenty of hard to catch 7-10 ss models that he likes to go hunting for, so you take him when you expect something like that.  You pick him like you'd pick carver vs a crew that likes terrifying.  Ask yourself what does this crew have that would be a pain in my ass if it starts running around by itself?  If anything above a crooligan comes to mind, it might be worth considering Thoon.

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Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

As far as I can see, models can still unbury themselves. Which doesn't really make sense thematically (they're supposed to be frozen in the pillar), but mechanically that is how it works I believe.

That's how I felt, rules wise, but wanted to cross check versus the advice that he is good against burrowing models.

Like you'd want to drop him into Dreamer, to counteract summons that pop out amongst your own models ... Except the summon upgrade allows them to just unbury again with the next duel!

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10 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

As far as I can see, models can still unbury themselves. Which doesn't really make sense thematically (they're supposed to be frozen in the pillar), but mechanically that is how it works I believe.

obviously it's drilling through the ice to get out

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4 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Nothing, but since they have the restriction on unburying themselves it cuts into their usefulness(granted I'm not sure that's a good trade for the Euri player)

It's basically bury them so they can never score.  Depending on the pool and matchup this could be very useful.

Also upon further reading there's an... interesting interaction with models that can unbury themselves.  Thoon's card specifically says if the pillar is removed, the target is unburied in base contact with it.  This effect doesn't have an end state (otherwise the pillars would disappear on their own at some point), so RAW a model that unburies itself would be vulnerable to being teleported back if it reburied itself.

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On 9/22/2020 at 1:29 AM, Ogid said:

In fact when I got a bit more time, I want to try to optimice a pocket strategy double master Lucius/Euripides around that idea: Changelings may copy his rune-etched Ice, Lawyer may obey those to do it again and give Euripides Shielded so he may use Old Ways more liberally and Lucius may obey all them to do it all again, and then Euripides of course can rain even more ice on his own activation. Rune-Etched ice is quite good for this because the TN is fixed, so the ability casted from Changelings is as good as the one from him but requiring an 8 and without the option to reuse the card with old ways. That's the main idea; not sure how good it'd be and it'll probably need an already dense map plus an enemy crew with few movement tricks and without good marker removal, but seems fun to try. That's a lot of shockwave damage and roadblocks (but also a lot of high TNs to reach, which is why this crew is tricky to build; I still need to see how many obeys and card draw need for it to work well).

I've been toying with the idea. Not sure if it's in the top tier of dual master pairs, but it sounds hella fun.

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On 10/2/2020 at 7:21 AM, Thatguy said:

Pokemon logic. Ice beats Ghost type.

Malifaux logic: Everything beats ice :P

16 hours ago, Alcathous said:

I've been toying with the idea. Not sure if it's in the top tier of dual master pairs, but it sounds hella fun.

Fun is probably the right word :). I really doubt is top tier, but in the right map versus the right crew it might be good enough and quite fun.

Thinking a bit more about it, Alan could also be legit; he gives an extra card to help with the ton of duels and staggered to make harder to pass all those Mv duels; and he also has Execute, however that range 0'' and no ability to place himself doesn't go well with the pilar spam.

Tell us how it goes if you try it!

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/3/2020 at 9:21 AM, Nagi21 said:

It's basically bury them so they can never score.  Depending on the pool and matchup this could be very useful.

Also upon further reading there's an... interesting interaction with models that can unbury themselves.  Thoon's card specifically says if the pillar is removed, the target is unburied in base contact with it.  This effect doesn't have an end state (otherwise the pillars would disappear on their own at some point), so RAW a model that unburies itself would be vulnerable to being teleported back if it reburied itself.

Yeah I had a game where I buried Betty Noir, she unburied herself then reburied later, and I smashed the piller so she'd be in a worse position for my opponent. 

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