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My opinion about Frontiers


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14 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

To be fair, we've also got Raptors, but yeah, this is one of the big reasons I've always thought Guild Hounds should be Versatile.  Cheap bodies that would plug gaps in a lot of Guild crews, but not be particularly good, so they wouldn't be an auto-pick.  I'd pay 3 stones for something that could get some use out of other models in crews, like Crocket. They probably wouldn't be taken anywhere else really, but Frontier could do with them.

Maybe in future Frontiers will get more beast. But right now, with only Raptors and Sand Worm its not enought to invest in Crockett when you can hire a Pathfinder for same prize.

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6 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

Tbf, by your own admission you play lots of 10T or Bayou.

 

6 hours ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I play against a lot of 10T and Neverborn (some Bayou as well).

I play against a lot of 10T and Neverborn with some Bayou thrown in. Not as. But you are right. A lot of our models look pretty bad when compared against those factions. 

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8 hours ago, belorey said:

If we had more beast like Sand Worm to use with Crockett's Scent of Blood maybe could be an optimal choice. 

Doesn't help Guild... but the Explorers have a freakin' T-rex! :)

For what it's worth, I reckon Paul's a pretty swell guy for 6ss... I really don't think it's fair to compare him to an 11ss rider!

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12 hours ago, belorey said:

This is the opposite of an optimal combo. If you agree with play something that can happen 1 in 50 games and maybe could condition some decision in half of games its nice, but i'm trying to get the best out of the keyword.

You appear to have missed my point. It may well be a play style difference but I know if I played against Crockett and a Sandworm I would spend a lot of the game under the assumption that my opponent had a high mask in hand to try and get 3 attacks for 1 action. I know that they won't always have one, but unless I know they don't I tend to assume they do. This means that for me the presence of the two in the same list will affect every choice I make during the game. That's not the same as saying it will change the choices that I make, because I might decide that that risk is worth what I gain. (and the choices will often depend a lot more on the specific match up, both in what I'm playing and what the table looks like, so its very hard to quantify).

Colettes Df trigger probably only goes off in 10% of games with her in. That doesn't make it a pointless trigger, the sheer presence of the trigger has prevented a lot of attacks against her with out ever being used. 

I feel that a combo that has an effect in 50% of the games is something to consider. Especially if I have a good idea of which 50% of games its going to effect, and so only hire it in games its likely to affect. I also made those numbers up partially as an answer to Shin Chan. I honestly think that if neither you nor your opponent looked at scent of blood as an ability, the circumstances to set it off would happen 2-3 times per game on average. Its pretty hard to actually test that, but if you really wanted to, you could play in a list with a pathfinder and the sand worm, and every time you activate the pathfinder, just pause and check if the pathfinder could set off scent of Blood that turn. (Then do the pathfinder activation as normal. This still isn't entirely accurate but it would give you an idea of how common the situation is if you are not trying to force it, and your opponent isn't trying to deny it. ). 

You and your opponents may well play the game very differently, and so not find any use for Crockett. Its possible for both outlooks to be right.  I just wouldn't write it off so early. I do agree if there was a second beast in the list then Crocket would look more appealing, and currently Guild don't really have a good beast for it. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I still don't think a 1/2/3 heal as a normal action on a shooting master is worth it. There aren't even triggers one it. The ability is bad by support master standards. I feel like I have to have weird experiences compared to most players.

I agree you use it only if it gets you points. Give it a swift action/galvanize/sudden strike trigger or whatever to make it useful....

 

I think people underestimate Austringers. They are 7SS minions with +- 8 Hp and a pretty decent attack that can take out support pieces.

Pathfinders are good but super squishy. I think that's the general issue with Frontier, is that they die super fast (everything is Df 5  or lower except Basse). They can stand against ranged crews due to Favorable Terrain but melee crews demolish them.

 

The worm is bonkers tho. I don't know if you need Crockett but I think he's an autotake.

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5 hours ago, Da Git said:

Doesn't help Guild... but the Explorers have a freakin' T-rex! :)

For what it's worth, I reckon Paul's a pretty swell guy for 6ss... I really don't think it's fair to compare him to an 11ss rider!

Yeah i know i was on the explorers beta. But i'm talking about a Guild Basse.

In Explorers Basse would get access to different versarile and upgrades (maybe better or maybe worst) so its other point. :)

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On 9/15/2020 at 5:05 PM, belorey said:

Keyword abilities:

  • Home in the Range +1:  I think its very good. Gives you the chance of an easy alfa strike or a good opportunity to position models in an advantageous situation.
  • Favorable Terrain: Anoter good ability that combines great with :ToS-Fast:Kick Up Dust keyword action.

Home on the Range is a really odd ability to have on a primarily ranged crew. It feels like the idea behind this is to allow the crew to put pressure on the opponent right away with 14" guns which sounds great in theory, but in my experience never quite works out that well. The problem is a lot of good models just counter this advantage with long threat ranges and I see at least one of those models in every list (Riders for example are very common in many lists).

Favorable Terrain is decent since it makes most the crew unimpeded, but really it should do more then just cover because what the crew needs is defenses against fast melee crews, not other shooting crews. Yes, it makes Frontier good in gun fights, but when declaring Basse you never know if you are actually going to get into a gun fight or not, so your taking a gamble that won't pay off many times.
 

 

On 9/15/2020 at 5:05 PM, belorey said:

Keyword actions:

  • :ToS-Fast:Kick Up Dust: Very useful bonus action for all keyword, you can combined with Favorable Terrain you get a model with cover and concealing againts shoots.

Kick Up Dust is fine, but this bonus action really isn't that good. Lets take Fae for example, who also create 50mm severe & concealing terrain. First off, the Fae just get it at the start of the game and can place it where they want. No card flip needed, very little placement limitation, the markers stay and don't vanish at the end of the turn leaving you model in the open, and the crew can do some interesting things with the markers like extra damage as one example. So from my understanding the idea here is to throw these markers in front of your crew to deny the opponent from getting to you (or at least slowing their advance) and providing cover in a gun fight. Problem is two-fold. First, its say easy to deny this advantage in pretty much every faction with access to unimpeded models that are fast (again Riders as a very common example) and your not even taking "tech" models that you wouldn't already take. So many of my games I found this bonus not even worth doing other then Basse using it to push 3" on the trigger.

On 9/15/2020 at 5:05 PM, belorey said:

Keyword Models:

  • Cornelius Basse: I really like all his front card, his DF trigger + 12 wounds + HtK  become Cornelius in one of the tankiest master. His Attack Actions are powefull. WIth the Tactical Action is where i see some problems. Stoic Nod its a bad action in a non support Master like Basse. Even more because you have a poor minion pool and you cannot target yourself. Maybe if you could heal yourself too or if it has a trigger to make more desirable to use. :ToS-Fast:Claim The Bounty it´s a situational bonus, not bad but you are going to spend de :ToS-Fast: to creat Dusts most of the times. My note: 8

He can be tough to kill if you are burning SS to keep him up, but he is far from tanky in experience and his crew lacks ways to heal him other then wasting a 10ss models Action to heal 1/2/3.....not idea. Sure you can bring in other models to do it, but I'm taking about the keyword here. I agree that Stoic Nod is a terrible ability on a master. Yes you heal 2/3/4 on your Rough Riders and Survivalists, but honestly its a waste of Basse's AP to using this ability and would be much better on Bernadetta. Point and case, Foul-Mouthed motivation is a stronger ability and is a bonus action on Dashel, who is a much stronger master. Claim The Bounty is also pretty bad, and your not using Basse to hunt down scheme marker droppers (you have 14" guns to do that). Honestly It would be way better if it was scrap/corpse markers since in my experience you tend to have a lot of traps dying and leaving scrap.

 

On 9/15/2020 at 5:05 PM, belorey said:
  • Bernadette Basse: I don´t really see the purpose of the totem in the crew. His Grit (Frantic) abiliy is useless in a 4 wound model. I see the idea of the Bring It combined with her :meleeand the trigger to heal. But if i could rewritte the card i would changed the Bring it for the Stoic Nod action and maybe a False Claim to combine with Cornelius Claim The Bounty. My note: 4
  • Jonathan Reichart:  The Beater/Tank of the Frontiers. Good abilities and Actions. But his Stoic Nod its a waste of action because you need an 6+ to heal 1/2/3 that means you will fail the duel the 50% of the times. The biggest problem i see with Reichart is that he has not a trigger or skill to make any extra attack. My note: 7

To be continued...

Bernadette is fine since she is a 2ss significant model and bring it has its uses.

Jonathan I agree needs something. Right now I'll take Phiona every time over him as the 10ss slot since this crew really needs a model like her to protect them and get them out of melee.

Now lets talk about the Elephant in the room with this crew. Clockwork Traps. In theory, these things are supposed to tie-up melee crews and let you keep shooting while they deal with the traps. Problem is they end up being...wait for it...a trap for you. First off, every game I've played with Basse they had at least 1 model that could tear through traps like nothing, which causes 2 problems. First it very often gives them activation control (they get pass token, then kill 1-2 traps before they activate) which is a huge problem (especially considering how squishy the rest of the crew is as well). Sure maybe it was a bit of bad luck on my part, but its not like its hard to tax in a model to deal with traps in pretty much any faction (ok, maybe Bayou its a problem for) and hell yes it is worth it for the opponent to do so. Second, many crews have ways to abuse WP 3 models against you like Youko, Lucious, or Dade eating your hand with Blackmail/Misinformation. Like Levi or Lynch summoning their own models off of them since they are easy kills.....the list goes on. These models really need to go back to the way their were in M2E in that they don't have a WP and ignore those attacks and ignore conditions like poison and burning.

Honestly the crew could use a couple major tweaks like...

  1. Favorable Terrain should grants +1 to duels when the model is next to concealing terrain or gain a (+) to the duel.
  2. Dust Cloud markers should stay on the table. If having all these markers around was a problem, you would hear people complaining about the Fae crew way more, but right now I haven't heard any real issues with them.
  3. Claim The Bounty could be Scrap and Corpses (god knows you have plenty of both by turn 4 with this crew in my experience).
  4. This crew needs some Take The Hit and I've Got Your Back to try and win a fight against other crews. Thankfully you can tax in Phiona, it just sucks that Jonathan doesn't fill this role which you need and instead gives you a generic beater (which the Peacekeeper is just as good at if not better at filling).
  5. Clockwork Traps needs to be less of a liability and instead a strength to help this crew.
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4 hours ago, Khyodee said:

Home on the Range is a really odd ability to have on a primarily ranged crew. It feels like the idea behind this is to allow the crew to put pressure on the opponent right away with 14" guns which sounds great in theory, but in my experience never quite works out that well. The problem is a lot of good models just counter this advantage with long threat ranges and I see at least one of those models in every list (Riders for example are very common in many lists).

Home on the range is amazing. It helos a lot with a couple if strategies and many schemes, allowing for a super-easy turn 2 scoring. With GG0 and GG1, being the first on the enemy table half and stop him there gives a massive advantage. 

Frontier is a Skirmish keyword, you're supposed to take advantage of that extra deployment from multiple fronts and force the opponent to split and commit resources in multiple directions, while punishing him from turn 1.

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Favorable Terrain is decent since it makes most the crew unimpeded, but really it should do more then just cover because what the crew needs is defenses against fast melee crews, not other shooting crews. Yes, it makes Frontier good in gun fights, but when declaring Basse you never know if you are actually going to get into a gun fight or not, so your taking a gamble that won't pay off many times.

That happens to many or even most of the keywords in the game. They can have an advantage or a disadvantage depending on the enemy (or even the terrain). 

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Kick Up Dust is fine, but this bonus action really isn't that good. Lets take Fae for example, who also create 50mm severe & concealing terrain. First off, the Fae just get it at the start of the game and can place it where they want. No card flip needed, very little placement limitation, the markers stay and don't vanish at the end of the turn leaving you model in the open, and the crew can do some interesting things with the markers like extra damage as one example. So from my understanding the idea here is to throw these markers in front of your crew to deny the opponent from getting to you (or at least slowing their advance) and providing cover in a gun fight. Problem is two-fold. First, its say easy to deny this advantage in pretty much every faction with access to unimpeded models that are fast (again Riders as a very common example) and your not even taking "tech" models that you wouldn't already take. So many of my games I found this bonus not even worth doing other then Basse using it to push 3" on the trigger.

This ability is nuts. First of all, and a main difference with the underbrush markers: it's a drop, not a create, without even a restriction to prevent them to be too close between them. That's already a massive advantage. In addition is a free action, unlike Germinate. Also, Germinate has a higher TN and, in general, a lower stat. The only one with a trigger in Germinate is the master.

Dust markers are good, they're not amazing, but they do the job for a free action that requires a 5. For God's sake, some times I bring McTavish just to be able to put one of those vs many crews. Also, now there's a way for them to stay on the table.

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He can be tough to kill if you are burning SS to keep him up, but he is far from tanky in experience and his crew lacks ways to heal him other then wasting a 10ss models Action to heal 1/2/3.....not idea. Sure you can bring in other models to do it, but I'm taking about the keyword here. I agree that Stoic Nod is a terrible ability on a master. Yes you heal 2/3/4 on your Rough Riders and Survivalists, but honestly its a waste of Basse's AP to using this ability and would be much better on Bernadetta. Point and case, Foul-Mouthed motivation is a stronger ability and is a bonus action on Dashel, who is a much stronger master. Claim The Bounty is also pretty bad, and your not using Basse to hunt down scheme marker droppers (you have 14" guns to do that). Honestly It would be way better if it was scrap/corpse markers since in my experience you tend to have a lot of traps dying and leaving scrap.

 

Bernadette is fine since she is a 2ss significant model and bring it has its uses.

Jonathan I agree needs something. Right now I'll take Phiona every time over him as the 10ss slot since this crew really needs a model like her to protect them and get them out of melee.

Now lets talk about the Elephant in the room with this crew. Clockwork Traps. In theory, these things are supposed to tie-up melee crews and let you keep shooting while they deal with the traps. Problem is they end up being...wait for it...a trap for you. First off, every game I've played with Basse they had at least 1 model that could tear through traps like nothing, which causes 2 problems. First it very often gives them activation control (they get pass token, then kill 1-2 traps before they activate) which is a huge problem (especially considering how squishy the rest of the crew is as well). Sure maybe it was a bit of bad luck on my part, but its not like its hard to tax in a model to deal with traps in pretty much any faction (ok, maybe Bayou its a problem for) and hell yes it is worth it for the opponent to do so. Second, many crews have ways to abuse WP 3 models against you like Youko, Lucious, or Dade eating your hand with Blackmail/Misinformation. Like Levi or Lynch summoning their own models off of them since they are easy kills.....the list goes on. These models really need to go back to the way their were in M2E in that they don't have a WP and ignore those attacks and ignore conditions like poison and burning.

Honestly the crew could use a couple major tweaks like...

  1. Favorable Terrain should grants +1 to duels when the model is next to concealing terrain or gain a (+) to the duel.

This is bananas. 

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  1. Dust Cloud markers should stay on the table. If having all these markers around was a problem, you would hear people complaining about the Fae crew way more, but right now I haven't heard any real issues with them.

Another bananas.

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  1. Claim The Bounty could be Scrap and Corpses (god knows you have plenty of both by turn 4 with this crew in my experience).

That would be too good, not bananas tho. Drawing 2-3 card per turn, without TN and as a free action. 

Parker has a similar one and only works with enemy scheme markers. 

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  1. This crew needs some Take The Hit and I've Got Your Back to try and win a fight against other crews. Thankfully you can tax in Phiona, it just sucks that Jonathan doesn't fill this role which you need and instead gives you a generic beater (which the Peacekeeper is just as good at if not better at filling).
  2. Clockwork Traps needs to be less of a liability and instead a strength to help this crew.

With the rest, I mostly agree. Jonathan needs some really nice triggers in that Stoic Nod, like "Preparations", "Swift action" and "This will numb the pain", like all of them, not only 1.. Right now Stoic Nod is just wasted ink in his card, anf the same for Basse

Basse could just directly get rid of Stoic Nod and just get a Reposition trigger in the Claim the Bounty action, so no matter which one on his free actions he's taking, he can get to do it. 

Clockwork traps are too bad, you're totally right, they need a redesign or just make them easier to summon (TN 13,but printed tome) and give them Mindless. 

Also Austringers could get some small buff, like a printed tome in the mele attack (after all, it already requires to discard a card).

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16 hours ago, Khyodee said:

Dust Cloud markers should stay on the table. If having all these markers around was a problem, you would hear people complaining about the Fae crew way more, but right now I haven't heard any real issues with them.

If they're going to be made "permanent", I think there should be two caveats added.

First, they still disappear if there's not a friendly Frontier model touching it (so it can't just litter the board with them).

Second, Kicking Up Dust removes all friendly Dust Clouds before dropping the next one. This prevents someone from obstructing a significant area with it (Undergrowth has to be 2" apart).

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The Sandworm does boost Dust Clouds a little bit, so any changes would have to accommodate that too.  Basically any change would mean every model in the Keyword would need rebalancing and thats not really necessary.  The Keyword is mostly fine, it just has a few gaps.  Fix those gaps and you've got a solid contender.

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13 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Clockwork traps are too bad, you're totally right, they need a redesign or just make them easier to summon (TN 13,but printed tome) and give them Mindless. 

Current 8 trap score:

2 wins, 1 draw, 0 loses :P 

 

As for Frontier, I think their biggest weakness is Wp. You have 1 model with Wp6 in the whole keyword. If dust clouds gave them disguised I think they would be in a much better position. 

I was strongly opposed to dust markers staying permanently during the beta, because you can basically have 6-7 markers easily without really cheating much per turn. I don't think comparing to Germinate is fair.

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