My opinion about Frontiers

[belorey]

After some games and read and re-read the keyword i wanna share wuth all of you my opinions about the full keyword and know what do you think.

Keyword abilities:

• Home in the Range +1:  I think its very good. Gives you the chance of an easy alfa strike or a good opportunity to position models in an advantageous situation.
• Favorable Terrain: Anoter good ability that combines great with Kick Up Dust keyword action.

Keyword actions:

• Kick Up Dust: Very useful bonus action for all keyword, you can combined with Favorable Terrain you get a model with cover and concealing againts shoots.

Keyword Models:

• Cornelius Basse: I really like all his front card, his DF trigger + 12 wounds + HtK  become Cornelius in one of the tankiest master. His Attack Actions are powefull. WIth the Tactical Action is where i see some problems. Stoic Nod its a bad action in a non support Master like Basse. Even more because you have a poor minion pool and you cannot target yourself. Maybe if you could heal yourself too or if it has a trigger to make more desirable to use. Claim The Bounty it´s a situational bonus, not bad but you are going to spend de  to creat Dusts most of the times. My note: 8

• Bernadette Basse: I don´t really see the purpose of the totem in the crew. His Grit (Frantic) abiliy is useless in a 4 wound model. I see the idea of the Bring It combined with her and the trigger to heal. But if i could rewritte the card i would changed the Bring it for the Stoic Nod action and maybe a False Claim to combine with Cornelius Claim The Bounty. My note: 4
• Jonathan Reichart:  The Beater/Tank of the Frontiers. Good abilities and Actions. But his Stoic Nod its a waste of action because you need an 6+ to heal 1/2/3 that means you will fail the duel the 50% of the times. The biggest problem i see with Reichart is that he has not a trigger or skill to make any extra attack. My note: 7

To be continued...

[whitters]

I think Basse' defensive trigger is underrated as it is "after resolving". Combined with dust cloud markers this makes him very resilient to melee attackers, especially those with flurry or onslaught.

But Dude, Baby Basse is awesome.

For a start:

Home on the range +1 helps the entire keyword.

Her kick up dust has a useful trigger to push the Dust cloud that will only become more relevant with the introduction of Sand worms.

'Bring it' can be amazing for positioning.

She is Significant.

 

An example first turn could be:

Deploy Bernadette and Cornelius 8" forward behind a building.

Activate Bernadette to drop a scheme marker, use 'Bring it' to move the Pale rider forward 9". (Maybe this brings it into melee range and it deals 2 dmg to her. That's fine, her attack actions are at a + including 'Bring it' and with 'hard to kill' it still requires 2 attacks to finish her. Worst case she is still alive thanks to 'hard to kill'). Finally use Kick up dust to drop a dust cloud nearby.

The Pale rider uses ride with me to move itself and Cornelius into the Dust cloud, where they will both benefit from concealing but their opponents will not.(Cornelius also has cover). It should then be in range to use both it's attack actions.

Finally Cornelius uses his bonus to claim the bounty from the Scheme marker Bernadette dropped and hopefully is in position to use all 3 attack actions.

 

This requires an 8 for 'Bring it', a 5 for kick up dust and some tricky positioning but that is a LOT of enabling for a 2 stone totem.

 

If you have the cards she is capable of pulling a peacekeeper 12" across the board in a single activation and still drop a dust cloud.

'Bring it' is even better with rough riders where their attack action involves a place for even greater positioning

If you just use her to follow Cornelius around to drop dust cloud and scheme markers, being able to draw from the top of the discard pile during his activation gives you a great chance of picking up at least a moderate every turn. 

[theamazingmrg]

What @whitters said.

 

Plus, I think you're undervaluing Stoic Nod on Basse, especially given the previewed Rough Riders.  Both them and the Frontiersman have Survivalist, so Stoic Nod becomes a 2/3/4 heal, which makes it much more potent for keeping the Minions alive.  Its a situational Action, but I'd much rather have it than not.

 

I also disagree that he has a poor Minion pool.  Austringers and Pathfinders are good, and Rough Riders look like they will be great.  That's 50% of the Minion pool that is good or better, before accounting for the situational use of Traps and Raptors.  I do agree that Frontiersmen are a little underwhelming though.

[belorey]

1 hour ago, theamazingmrg said:

I also disagree that he has a poor Minion pool.  Austringers and Pathfinders are good, and Rough Riders look like they will be great.  That's 50% of the Minion pool that is good or better, before accounting for the situational use of Traps and Raptors.  I do agree that Frontiersmen are a little underwhelming though.

I'm agree with Riders and Pathfinder. But Austringer was a bad Minion before, and now that we have the Riders for equal cost is even worst. There is no situation in which i would choose an Austringer before a second Rider or Pathfinder + 1ss.

So we have Frontiersman, Austringer and Raptors (plus Crockett which is a bad enforcer) that you would never pick in games.

Most of the with new Riders would be like:

New Cornelius Basse Crew (Guild)
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  Cornelius Basse
Totem(s):
  Bernadette Basse
Hires:
  Jonathan Reichart
  Sand Worm
  Guild Steward
  Rough Rider
  Rough Rider
  Pathfinder

[Adran]

11 minutes ago, belorey said:

So we have Frontiersman, Austringer and Raptors (plus Crockett which is a bad enforcer) that you would never pick in games.

 

I'd agree that previously Frontier didn't get to make use of Crocketts best ability (scent of Blood), there is now a nice beast come into the keyword... And its a model that already wants to be close to models, so ought to be able to take advantage of the Co-ordinated attack trigger.

I would probably look to try Crockett again once the worm is out

 

[Legislat]

I think Paul Crocket is pretty damn amazing with the Sand Worm as a combination. The opponent will have to consider him somehow. This alone seems worth it to bring him in. Thats pure speculation for now, but i think something like

Basse (LLC) +totem, Paul Cr., SWorm, Stewie, Pathfinder (or 2)

will be core with the spices on top.

[theamazingmrg]

52 minutes ago, belorey said:

I'm agree with Riders and Pathfinder. But Austringer was a bad Minion before, and now that we have the Riders for equal cost is even worst. There is no situation in which i would choose an Austringer before a second Rider or Pathfinder + 1ss.

I think you're massively undervaluing a ranged action  that can target at 14" ignoring LoS, Cover, and Concealment, with a Trigger to repeat itself.  and that's before factoring in the Demise Ability.

 

The Austringer by itself looks underwhelming for 7ss, but you need to factor in the free Upgrade it gets, which changes things dramatically.  Especially given it can be discarded to negate all damage, then reattached with a Trigger on the melee attack.

[Dark Reaper]

Crocket can make the Sand Worm take quite a lot of stat6 min3 attacks with his gun. Seems pretty impressive for a 6SS model tbh. With the right cards the Sand Worm could be able to make 5 (or if the stars align, 7) attacks in a round, which is obviouslty devastating.

[belorey]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I'd agree that previously Frontier didn't get to make use of Crocketts best ability (scent of Blood), there is now a nice beast come into the keyword... And its a model that already wants to be close to models, so ought to be able to take advantage of the Co-ordinated attack trigger.

I would probably look to try Crockett again once the worm is out

 

Maybe, but if the rival know how the keyword works when Sand Worm unbury he´ll attack it to kill or bury again so, at the end, you get a enfocer with worst shooting stats than Rider, than cannont heal using a  (Rider again) and that can give you a card from the discard pile only if he takes a huge risk.

[belorey]

Just now, Dark Reaper said:

Crocket can make the Sand Worm take quite a lot of stat6 min3 attacks with his gun. Seems pretty impressive for a 6SS model tbh. With the right cards the Sand Worm could be able to make 5 (or if the stars align, 7) attacks in a round, which is obviouslty devastating.

As i said before, if the rival know how they work together, after the worm unbury he will put pressure into him to kill or bury again. If i play against Frontiers there is no chance that i let that combo happens, because i would have at least one activation between both models.

[Dark Reaper]

Agree to disagree. Relatively cheap models locking down quite a big portion of the opponent's crew in that way is in itself very good.

[le_wahou]

14 minutes ago, belorey said:

As i said before, if the rival know how they work together, after the worm unbury he will put pressure into him to kill or bury again. If i play against Frontiers there is no chance that i let that combo happens, because i would have at least one activation between both models.

The interest of Paul Crockett is here in y opinion. When sand worm unbury, opponent will have to handle him with his next activation. It will allow the sand worm to rebury and give you some activation control

[ShinChan]

15 minutes ago, Dark Reaper said:

Crocket can make the Sand Worm take quite a lot of stat6 min3 attacks with his gun. Seems pretty impressive for a 6SS model tbh. With the right cards the Sand Worm could be able to make 5 (or if the stars align, 7) attacks in a round, which is obviouslty devastating.

Extremely situational.

1. You have to unbury the Worm, which will only happen in Severe terrain in a way that Crocket can still see the target, making much more difficult the positioning.
2. The enemy has 1 activation in the middle, to prevent Crocket doing this (covering LoS, killing Crocket, killing the Worm or forcing him to bury itself).
3. Crocket has to hit with Stat 5, not ignoring Cover and hit with a Mask.
4. Crocket needs to do damage and then the Worm needs to discard a card.

Borderline situations are that, borderline. In one of my last games a Tanuki killed a Hooded Rider in a single activation, but that doesn't make a Tanuki a good offensive model.

[belorey]

20 minutes ago, Dark Reaper said:

Agree to disagree. Relatively cheap models locking down quite a big portion of the opponent's crew in that way is in itself very good.

14ss in 2 models isn't a small portion of your crew neither.

[Morgan Vening]

37 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Borderline situations are that, borderline. In one of my last games a Tanuki killed a Hooded Rider in a single activation, but that doesn't make a Tanuki a good offensive model.

Agreed. It doesn't make it a good offensive model.

IT MAKES IT A FREAKING AWESOME OFFENSIVE MODEL.

If I had a Tanuki do that, I'd get a little gold medal sculpted and painted onto the miniature.

[Adran]

40 minutes ago, belorey said:

As i said before, if the rival know how they work together, after the worm unbury he will put pressure into him to kill or bury again. If i play against Frontiers there is no chance that i let that combo happens, because i would have at least one activation between both models.

But if you know how they work together then you don't unbury him in a place where they can easily pressure him to bury or die.

If you hold the 2 activations till the end of the turn, you probably only have 2 enemy models that can react to your worm placement,  and several places that the combo could threaten. 

20 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Extremely situational.

1. You have to unbury the Worm, which will only happen in Severe terrain in a way that Crocket can still see the target, making much more difficult the positioning.
2. The enemy has 1 activation in the middle, to prevent Crocket doing this (covering LoS, killing Crocket, killing the Worm or forcing him to bury itself).
3. Crocket has to hit with Stat 5, not ignoring Cover and hit with a Mask.
4. Crocket needs to do damage and then the Worm needs to discard a card.

Borderline situations are that, borderline. In one of my last games a Tanuki killed a Hooded Rider in a single activation, but that doesn't make a Tanuki a good offensive model.

1 You have to end up with the worm engaged with a model that Crockett can shoot. That may be unburying next to it, or it may be the worm unburying and charging or just walking up.  (You can also spend one of Crocketts actions walking if that helps)

2 Totally true. The worm is 9 wounds with Hard to wound so its not that likely to die in 1 activation. And the frontier player has some control on this. If the worm does pop out in a place where a model could kill it in 1 turn, then you have possibly forced that activation to come and try and deal with the worm. If you think it is going to kill the worm you can probably choose to bury it, meaning that a fair amount of that counter activation is wasted. 

3 and 4 are not entirely true, its more an either/or. Crocket either has to hit with a mask or deal damage. If he does both then you could get 2 extra attacks. 

 

That, too me, isn't extremely situational.

The worm needs to be in the right place (and there are quite a few "right places" since its 1" from a model that is  5" from 14" and los of Crocket that I'm happy to try and hit), survive at least 1 activation and you need to hit with Stat5 gun. That sounds easy enough to me that if my opponent isn't actively trying to deny it I can expect to be able to achieve 3 or 4 turns a game if I want. 

But its on the table where it really matters. 

[Thatguy]

1 hour ago, theamazingmrg said:

I think you're massively undervaluing a ranged action  that can target at 14" ignoring LoS, Cover, and Concealment, with a Trigger to repeat itself.  and that's before factoring in the Demise Ability.

 

The Austringer by itself looks underwhelming for 7ss, but you need to factor in the free Upgrade it gets, which changes things dramatically.  Especially given it can be discarded to negate all damage, then reattached with a Trigger on the melee attack.

I agree. It's great for targeting vulnerable stuff that hides in back. 

Also it's a 7ss model that summons a 3ss model when it dies that can in turn summon another 3ss model off it's corpse. That's pretty cool IMO.

[ShinChan]

11 minutes ago, Adran said:

But if you know how they work together then you don't unbury him in a place where they can easily pressure him to bury or die.

If you hold the 2 activations till the end of the turn, you probably only have 2 enemy models that can react to your worm placement,  and several places that the combo could threaten. 

1 You have to end up with the worm engaged with a model that Crockett can shoot. That may be unburying next to it, or it may be the worm unburying and charging or just walking up.  (You can also spend one of Crocketts actions walking if that helps)

2 Totally true. The worm is 9 wounds with Hard to wound so its not that likely to die in 1 activation. And the frontier player has some control on this. If the worm does pop out in a place where a model could kill it in 1 turn, then you have possibly forced that activation to come and try and deal with the worm. If you think it is going to kill the worm you can probably choose to bury it, meaning that a fair amount of that counter activation is wasted. 

3 and 4 are not entirely true, its more an either/or. Crocket either has to hit with a mask or deal damage. If he does both then you could get 2 extra attacks. 

 

That, too me, isn't extremely situational.

The worm needs to be in the right place (and there are quite a few "right places" since its 1" from a model that is  5" from 14" and los of Crocket that I'm happy to try and hit), survive at least 1 activation and you need to hit with Stat5 gun. That sounds easy enough to me that if my opponent isn't actively trying to deny it I can expect to be able to achieve 3 or 4 turns a game if I want. 

But its on the table where it really matters. 

You'll have to add that you haven't killed the model with the Worm's activation, or just killed it with Paul's first attack.

For me, it's a very situational scenario.  Can it happen? Definitely, but it really requires so much set up, favorable scenery, cards in hand or really good luck with the flips and no interaction from the opponent to prevent it, that I see it happening maybe 1/50 games, and only if the opponent doesn't see it coming.

12 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Agreed. It doesn't make it a good offensive model.

IT MAKES IT A FREAKING AWESOME OFFENSIVE MODEL.

If I had a Tanuki do that, I'd get a little gold medal sculpted and painted onto the miniature.

In my mind it was like this:

But sadly for me, the Hooded Rider was my model, not the Legendary Tanuki.

[4thstringer]

43 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Agreed. It doesn't make it a good offensive model.

IT MAKES IT A FREAKING AWESOME OFFENSIVE MODEL.

If I had a Tanuki do that, I'd get a little gold medal sculpted and painted onto the miniature.

I took out a rider with a false witness.  It was glorious.

[Alerteddonkey42]

5 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

Plus, I think you're undervaluing Stoic Nod on Basse, especially given the previewed Rough Riders

I still don't think a 1/2/3 heal as a normal action on a shooting master is worth it. There aren't even triggers one it. The ability is bad by support master standards. I feel like I have to have weird experiences compared to most players. I play against a lot of 10T and Neverborn (some Bayou as well). All the beaters I see are super mobile. Most beaters worth their salt (that I see in games) can do 3 min 3 attacks (it's actually one of the problems I have with Guild right now. Most of our expensive beaters aren't mobile and many don't even get 3 ap worth of attacks in a turn). 

5 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

Austringers and Pathfinders are good

I like pathfinders. I enjoyed them in 2e. These minions really aren't resilient though. The lack of resilience in the crew means placement with "Home on the Range" is a critical skill. Kind of like "from the shadows" you can just get your models in a position that makes it easier for them to be killed. 

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

Definitely, but it really requires so much set up, favorable scenery, cards in hand or really good luck with the flips and no interaction from the opponent to prevent it

A lot of models get rated on these types of situations for some reason. 

[theamazingmrg]

On 9/16/2020 at 6:26 PM, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I still don't think a 1/2/3 heal as a normal action on a shooting master is worth it. There aren't even triggers one it. The ability is bad by support master standards. I feel like I have to have weird experiences compared to most players. I play against a lot of 10T and Neverborn (some Bayou as well). All the beaters I see are super mobile. Most beaters worth their salt (that I see in games) can do 3 min 3 attacks (it's actually one of the problems I have with Guild right now. Most of our expensive beaters aren't mobile and many don't even get 3 ap worth of attacks in a turn).

Tbf, by your own admission you play lots of 10T or Bayou.  Almost everything Guild look so underwhelming compared to them!

On 9/16/2020 at 6:26 PM, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I like pathfinders. I enjoyed them in 2e. These minions really aren't resilient though. The lack of resilience in the crew means placement with "Home on the Range" is a critical skill. Kind of like "from the shadows" you can just get your models in a position that makes it easier for them to be killed.

I never said they were resilient.  Just that they were good.  And they are.  You need to be careful with them, but thats a weakness of the entire crew (except for the Sand Worm!).  I imagine its the tradeoff for the potentially ridiculous board advantage turn 1.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

You'll have to add that you haven't killed the model with the Worm's activation, or just killed it with Paul's first attack.

For me, it's a very situational scenario.  Can it happen? Definitely, but it really requires so much set up, favorable scenery, cards in hand or really good luck with the flips and no interaction from the opponent to prevent it, that I see it happening maybe 1/50 games, and only if the opponent doesn't see it coming.

Well saying you need the worm within1" I assume meant by default that you hadn't killed it with the worm. 

I also don't mind if my opponents have to adapt and make otherwise sub optimal choices to avoid my threat. It's like if I know I'm facing blasts I have to spread my models more to avoid them. That doesn't mean having blast markers aren't good even if I never actually land a blast on another model. 

Reading the chimera threads people seem to get scent of blood off there despite similar issues ( granted Marcus does move his crew more). 

I haven't tried them together, so it might not work, but to me it looks like something that the threat of each game might be worth while, so even if I only make it happen 1 in 50 games, it's probably helped in at least another24 of those games just by being possible. 

[belorey]

If we had more beast like Sand Worm to use with Crockett's Scent of Blood maybe could be an optimal choice. 

[belorey]

49 minutes ago, Adran said:

haven't tried them together, so it might not work, but to me it looks like something that the threat of each game might be worth while, so even if I only make it happen 1 in 50 games, it's probably helped in at least another24 of those games just by being possible. 

This is the opposite of an optimal combo. If you agree with play something that can happen 1 in 50 games and maybe could condition some decision in half of games its nice, but i'm trying to get the best out of the keyword.

[theamazingmrg]

58 minutes ago, belorey said:

If we had more beast like Sand Worm to use with Crockett's Scent of Blood maybe could be an optimal choice. 

To be fair, we've also got Raptors, but yeah, this is one of the big reasons I've always thought Guild Hounds should be Versatile.  Cheap bodies that would plug gaps in a lot of Guild crews, but not be particularly good, so they wouldn't be an auto-pick.  I'd pay 3 stones for something that could get some use out of other models in crews, like Crocket. They probably wouldn't be taken anywhere else really, but Frontier could do with them.