Melee beaters problem in m3e

[darksoul281]

15 minutes ago, Plaag said:

try to play them a little bit different way, so they can give all of your band 2 focuses for the first and 2 turn

I think you Don't know how to play this game, lose 2 turns in deployd stacking focus When Your oponent center in Score schemes Is the different between win and lose xD

[Ogid]

22 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That's some creative use of those abilities. Never occurred to me to adversary myself! Will have to see if I can find a way to get that into a Reva crew.

EDIT: Nope, not possible. That little trick is likely something most factions don't have, and I bet there's at least a few other ways that it would be really strong - wonder if Lucius can abuse it?

Glad to help

The crews without a lot of card draw really make good use of that trick, not only for that but for Lures also (lure your own models I mean); those have a high TN and most models needs from a 5 to an 8; with a  it's easier to lure without risking to fail a lot or wasting your hand; and as the model putting adversary is a doll; a 3SS model with great utility. It's something I consider often, the only disadvantage is the bit of initiative loss for including the doll when getting the back to back activation is important. With Lucius... I think he could make good use of it because Obey is an attack and Laywers need an 8 to meet the TN (also for BBS as they are great with him and Dolls also support the staggered theme of the Investigators)

In RES it seems restricted to a few crews... Onryo can put Adversary (Urami) consistently, which might be good for Lures with Jaakuna and the Soul Porter is a cheap model able to give your own models Adversary (Ancestor)... which I don't know if that would have any good use for Yan-Lo... maybe having an easier time slaughtering Chiaki for corpses XD.

6 minutes ago, darksoul281 said:

I can try but I dont see future for this combo 😕

Ty . Even if that doesn't work well, it'd be a very useful information.

[Adran]

25 minutes ago, Linar said:

I think, you have not played against a player who does well with any of those 3 masters. Because I assure you that with Von Stock you end up destroyed.
And above all Shenlong that makes you ultra counter.
Come on, I do not consider that any master resus is even among the top 5 of the game.

And thus, the circle is complete...

<Modhat>

just a friendly reminder to everyone in this thread that people will haver different experiences and if your argument is just that in your experience A is best and B is worst, don't get too upset if the counter argument is when I play B is best and A is useless.  

It is possible for you to both be right, and also for you to both be wrong. 

</modhat>

 

[darksoul281]

24 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I agree BBS doesn't sound as an answer to Colette; but about the Focused.

Have you tried an opening with Vasilisa+BBS? 2 Pulses of Focused from 1 BBS and a Mature in turn 1 (it requires 2 masks and 1 scheme marker so I usually include also a doll to put adversary in the model the BBS is going to knife and drop the marker).

The other player doesn't have that much time to kill the BBS, it's easier to put Focused+2 in several models in turn 1 than when they took off, and from turn 2 you may play with a full Mature with 8 Wds. And with the Adversary is reasonably consistent.

That opening works very well for me, but I'd apreciate knowing how that works in a very competitive local meta like yours.

You Can't make this because in the faq fix this problem, you Can't make a model take a bonus action outside its activation

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, darksoul281 said:

You Can't make this because in the faq fix this problem, you Can't make a model take a bonus action outside its activation

To clarify, the FAQ says you can't make a model take a bonus action outside AN activation.

You can't do it during the start/end phase, but you can do it during another model's activation (such as Vasilisa's).

[darksoul281]

Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

To clarify, the FAQ says you can't make a model take a bonus action outside AN activation.

You can't do it during the start/end phase, but you can do it during another model's activation (such as Vasilisa's).

Oh thank you, i want to try the combo with vasillisa and bbs xD

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, darksoul281 said:

I think you Don't know how to play this game, lose 2 turns in deployd stacking focus When Your oponent center in Score schemes Is the different between win and lose xD

lets just play once and u will see who is right)

[Regelridderen]

@Plaag and @darksoul281

Are you sure, you guys shouldn't go get a room and some privacy before you whip your minis out in public

It usually forms a better basis for discussion if you recognise and accept other people's point of view. It also happen to be the easiest way to grow your own understanding, if you take the time to listen to other people's experience – rather than simply dismissing them, try and ask questions on how, they got there. That's how you learn.

 

[darksoul281]

Just now, Regelridderen said:

@Plaag and @darksoul281

Are you sure, you guys shouldn't go get a room and some privacy before you whip your minis out in public

It usually forms a better basis for discussion if you recognise and accept other people's point of view. It also happen to be the easiest way to grow your own understanding, if you take the time to listen to other people's experience – rather than simply dismissing them, try and ask questions on how, they got there. That's how you learn.

 

I explaint about the problems of nekima, @Plaagonly say "play More" XD

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, darksoul281 said:

I explaint about the problems of nekima, @Plaagonly say "play More" XD

nekima have no problems, so one of the best melee master, and talking abt schtook-why are u scared of him? its not a big problem to kill model with an up with 3/5/6 and tonns of focuses; schtook is alwayes behind his army so just play your game and kill all what u see

[Adran]

<ModHat>

Lets just step back and think before we post. If you disagree with someones point of view, that's fine. You are welcome to say that. If you can't explain why you disagree then you do need to consider that your point may be ignored.

Offering to play someone to shown them what you mean might be helpful, but it is not the final point. There are plenty of people that don't use vassel for any number of reasons, none of which automatically make them a bad player. (For example I can not judge things on a PC anywhere near as well as I can in real life. So I have no interest in playing vassel, but even if I ever did I wouldn't play my best games on it. I might be able to see the opponents side, but I can't show them my side)

If you are having to resort to saying someone else is playing wrong without being able to say why, then its not really a helpful comment and probably better to not say anything. 

</Modhat>

 

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, darksoul281 said:

I think you Don't know how to play this game, lose 2 turns in deployd stacking focus When Your oponent center in Score schemes Is the different between win and lose xD

Why would you be staying in your deployment zone? It's a bonus to pulse out focus and they can get carried around/charge to still keep up with an advance.


 

 

1 hour ago, Plaag said:

nekima have no problems, so one of the best melee master, and talking abt schtook-why are u scared of him? its not a big problem to kill model with an up with 3/5/6 and tonns of focuses; schtook is alwayes behind his army so just play your game and kill all what u see

Nekima has problems, there's no denying that. That however doesn't mean shes' as bad as is being made out. Also, not sure why you're bringing up Von Schtook in response to @darksoul281 when he wasn't even the first person to bring up Von Schtook, and only mentioned him to disagree with @Kharnage's opinion about Von Schtook being the best master.

[darksoul281]

18 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Why would you be staying in your deployment zone? It's a bonus to pulse out focus and they can get carried around/charge to still keep up with an advance.

Because the bbs Is very squeezy model and if you go to the Battlefield with him, the bbs dies

[Kobosov]

My opinion on this is that there has to be some disagreement. YMMV regarding whether Nekima's offensive potential is worth sacrificing defensive potential compared to other masters. But again, YMMV EVEN in how to pronounce her (NE-ki-ma or ne-KI-ma). Now, I also agree that challenging someone to prove your point in a game to see who is right and who is wrong is also not the way to go, not at all. 

[Kobosov]

8 hours ago, trikk said:

The issue with melee beaters is that the damage spike bump they get (min 3) is not worth all the flexibility you lose.

McCabe has a decent damage output (probably more than he should), df6, gives upgrades, has ride with me

Von Schill has a decent gun, gives upgrades and is tanky as hell.

The melee beaters that work are: Misaki (lower damage but teleport and 6/7 stats)

Ironsides (built in triggers, tons of aoe buffs in keyword and a lure)

 

Viks, Nekima and Lady J are all basically 2SS behind because they need the faction df up to not die very fast.

All 3 of those also have a keyword that doesn't offer them much support

So you are basically dividing melee beaters in regarding whether they are good beaters AND do other stuff well or whether they JUST beat a lot and don't have anything else to offer (and, as you said before, need help to survive, in the case of Viks -whom I have played a little bit more, rely entirely on soulstones and actually KILLING things-). I also agree that there is where the main divide lies right now and whi the four that you mentioned in the first category (Lucas, Leopold, Misaki and Toni) are above the other three (Nekima, Viktoria-Viktoria and LJ).

[santaclaws01]

22 minutes ago, darksoul281 said:

Because the bbs Is very squeezy model and if you go to the Battlefield with him, the bbs dies

1-2 moves out would only be the battlefield if it was wedge deployment.

[touchdown]

It's interesting to see the Viks brought up in this thread as I don't even consider them melee beaters, despite their stat 7 min 3 attack. They're more like the most elite skirmishers in the game to me.

I think we maybe need a 2 axis way of thinking of masters. Strong-weak on one, and easy-hard to understand on the other. If you read the Viks' cards it really looks like you want to be attacking all the time, but in reality they're playing more of a positioning game. I could see something similar with Nekima, but I don't have experience with or against her.

Also, I don't put Soldier for hire on them. It's almost never worth having 4 more stones. You might still think there's a stone tax for playing the Viks as you will want damage reduction, but imo it doesn't come from upgrades.

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, touchdown said:

It's interesting to see the Viks brought up in this thread as I don't even consider them melee beaters, despite their stat 7 min 3 attack. They're more like the most elite skirmishers in the game to me.

I think we maybe need a 2 axis way of thinking of masters. Strong-weak on one, and easy-hard to understand on the other. If you read the Viks' cards it really looks like you want to be attacking all the time, but in reality they're playing more of a positioning game. I could see something similar with Nekima, but I don't have experience with or against her.

Also, I don't put Soldier for hire on them. It's almost never worth having 4 more stones. You might still think there's a stone tax for playing the Viks as you will want damage reduction, but imo it doesn't come from upgrades.

u need 1 sfh and 1 servant

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, darksoul281 said:

Because the bbs Is very squeezy model and if you go to the Battlefield with him, the bbs dies

If your opponent is spending time chasing down a 6 stone model, that is an opening for the rest of your crew to be doing useful things.

[darksoul281]

13 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If your opponent is spending time chasing down a 6 stone model, that is an opening for the rest of your crew to be doing useful things.

I dont think the same, The bbs give focus in the first turns and late make a very good Scheme runner rol because with fly with me he can walk around the table so fast 

[Adran]

22 hours ago, darksoul281 said:

Because the bbs Is very squeezy model and if you go to the Battlefield with him, the bbs dies

This might be on of the key differences between your style and that of others. If you can keep him alive, then he is a potentially very useful model that doesn't want to be in the midst of things. I also think that a lot of the people using him plan to turn him into a Mature Nephlim around turn 2, which can give a little more survivability, and still be able to threaten attacking something that is 12" away twice in turn 3 almost regardless of the terrain in the way, so keeping him back a little in turn 2 is not such a cost. That obviously will depend on table, crew and opponent, but giving out 6-8 focus in the first 2 turns and then becoming a mature is certainly sometimes worth the cost of being slightly hamstrung from placing requirements.  

 

Yes, it's not too hard to kill a 6 wound model if you want to, but in many games that involves you moving your models into the range of the Nephlim pack, which might not be the best place for such a model, and end up with a poor trade for the non nephlim player. And also if they are killing that model, they aren't attacking Nekima or the mature nephlim. That should be something you are able to take advantage of. 

 

 

[Ogid]

I'm not a fan of the "if you are killing a XSS model, you are not killing something more important" argument. That point could be made for objectively terrible picks like Bultungins or Bloodwretchs, but not for that they are worth it.

But being said that, I don't really think BBS need any buff tbh. Their defense and mobility are in line with the keyword, they see a lot of keyword and OOK play, and the Focused pulse plus being able to get replaced by a mature make them very solid models.

[Daniel Walker]

Guy's, bbs are one of the best models in NVB fraction . It's 2 matures on turn one if you need them, or its hell of a focuses for all models in your list. Just take Eyes in you crew, or start think how to place them in the way they will not die immediately after they gave focuses and transformed into matures. We take them in Lucius and Zoraida for utility, and you even don't know how to use then in rip-and-tear Nekima.

[Ludvig]

9 minutes ago, Daniel Walker said:

Guy's, bbs are one of the best models in NVB fraction . It's 2 matures on turn one if you need them, or its hell of a focuses for all models in your list.

How do you get matures turn one outside of Nekima? I thought they could only do their free action to eat a marker once?

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Daniel Walker said:

Guy's, bbs are one of the best models in NVB fraction . It's 2 matures on turn one if you need them, or its hell of a focuses for all models in your list. Just take Eyes in you crew, or start think how to place them in the way they will not die immediately after they gave focuses and transformed into matures. We take them in Lucius and Zoraida for utility, and you even don't know how to use then in rip-and-tear Nekima.

not everyone here knows it)