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Melee beaters problem in m3e


darksoul281

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1 hour ago, trikk said:

I don't agree with Dashel. All his card draw basically doesn't exist after T1. He's still a strong master, but I think it's not a problem. After the changes I don't know if Shenlong needs nerfs too. I`m more worried about By Your Side in high-card draw crews and unkillable masters like Leveticus, Ironsides and Colette.

shens spiritual alignment need to be nerf because of it is not attack action

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2 minutes ago, Plaag said:

shens spiritual alignment need to be nerf because of it is not attack action

There's a lot of things that it would be nice if they were changed. But I said multple times during the beta that giving Colette and Ironsides so many defensive abilities is a mistake :P

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1 hour ago, darksoul281 said:

Dont forget the invincible shenlong in GG0 xD 

But now shenlong Is better máster, he have the irreducible damage with 8 stat and to much other tricks to move, Scheme, counter Scheme and heal

I think nekima Is the worse Melee máster 😕

I'm not going to argue if Nekima is the worst Melee master or not (we've got the guild forum who will argue against that), but there has to be a worst Melee master. How ever you choose to define melee master, some model will fit the catgory and be worse at it than others. 

So I'm coming at your problem, not quite understanding what your problem is from the over all view.  Nekima is a much better melee beater than Zoraida, but you would be a fool to hire Zoraida for her melee. 

When your arguments include Mv 6 and flight is slow, and she has no defensive triggers, and seem to mean no defensive tech. Black blood is Defensive tech. Regenerate is defensive Tech. Spite is a defensive trigger, and whilst its not the best at actually defending her for that attack, it can provide you with extra resources (and it can also help defend her. If you cheat in a crow, they have to decide if they are going to cheat to hit and give you a card, or miss. That is defensive).

If you want to look at her compared to Viks and Justice, she has the easiest extra attack for them (Shove aside is easier to get off than co-ordinated attack or sudden strike). Sure its limited to once per activation, so she isn't going to get the 6-7 attacks that the Viks/Justice can maximise to, but it requires the least in terms of set up and effort. 

Its not impossible for Nekima to do 13 damage to 1 target and 5 or 6 damage to another target with the Charge through upgrade, even if she never gets more than weak damage. (And it only really requires the two targets are within about 3" of each other and the nearest is about 4 inchs from her, and she hits on her 4 attacks. You might find you end up needing to not get the shove aside until the second attack to have used 2 charges to get Nekima into the right position to get the charge through hitting both models as well as having them both close enough for blood for blood to hit them). Then she just needs to hit 4 times with her stat 7 sword. 

 

Is Nekima the best Maser out there? No, probably not. She is probably not the worst master either. Depending on the definition of Melee beater master you choose she might be the worst in that category, but for most of the definitions I think you'll find she is the best Neverborn Melee beater master. 

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1 hour ago, trikk said:

There's a lot of things that it would be nice if they were changed. But I said multple times during the beta that giving Colette and Ironsides so many defensive abilities is a mistake :P

colette gives no dmg, and have only 10 hp, toni is much more tanky

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2 minutes ago, Plaag said:

no, u just need to know how to avoid all of it or playing your game

No, the most faction haven't options to avoid triggers or hit her mv or size and the shockwaves have usually a low damage. 

Serene countenace is one of the best defensive techs, you Can avoid with focus or ss but you use one action for the focus or lose one ss to try to hit colette, in both cases usually colette avoid the damage with the trigger and usually one ss

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45 minutes ago, darksoul281 said:

Pls compare von schtook with the top masters of the game xD

Sandeep, shenlong or dashell are the best masters of the game, they have all You Need in the game, damage, draw, speed crew etc xD

Those aren't even in my top 3. I don't know what's going on in the in the Spanish meta, and I appreciate that y'all got revenge for the Spanish Armada at UK nationals, but none of those masters come even close to Schtook. I will play any Sandeep, Dashel, or Shen Long player with Schtook, and I will win at least 4 out of every 5 games. 

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The idea of 'strongest master' is a bit of an odd one. Even in MTG, a game with fixed objectives and conditions, establishing a best deck is difficult. For many metas it never stabilises, and when it does it takes thousands of competitive-level games.

I don't think there's enough playing capacity in Malifaux's player base to determine a best crew for any given scheme pool, much less a best crew overall.

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    The person just loves Nekima and wants to play comfortably. Other similar masters have more useful features. (This is what he writes about. You get away from it and start climbing in particular. Damage, attack, triggers, play more.But it's not about them).Example: there are  two cars 1) one sit down and go 2) the second one still needs to be manually repaired, spend money on repairs, go around three times then sit through the back door.... and overtake everyone.

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14 minutes ago, 74legion said:

    The person just loves Nekima and wants to play comfortably. Other similar masters have more useful features. (This is what he writes about. You get away from it and start climbing in particular. Damage, attack, triggers, play more.But it's not about them).Example: there are  two cars 1) one sit down and go 2) the second one still needs to be manually repaired, spend money on repairs, go around three times then sit through the back door.... and overtake everyone.

Its that I try to say all the time xD

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47 minutes ago, 74legion said:

    The person just loves Nekima and wants to play comfortably. Other similar masters have more useful features. (This is what he writes about. You get away from it and start climbing in particular. Damage, attack, triggers, play more.But it's not about them).Example: there are  two cars 1) one sit down and go 2) the second one still needs to be manually repaired, spend money on repairs, go around three times then sit through the back door.... and overtake everyone.

The problem is that there are people out there that are having more success with Nekima.

This suggests 1 of 3 things

- They have learnt better ways to use the features she has. 

- You are playing her in a meta where they have better solutions to Nekima than others, (So you could both be right in your views because you are not talking about the same things)

- Her "best Playstyle" isn't what you want from her. 

Its not as simple as going "I'm a good player but I lose with Nekima, therefore she is too weak so I must get her better. " (I used to be a good player in the last 2 editions I don't have enough experience this edition to think I still am, but I could not ever get any success with Nicodem in M2. That did not mean he was under powered as you could probably tell from the successes he had. It didn't mean I was a bad player, because I got good tournament results with several other masters, but I just could just not get the style to work). If you changed Nekima to be at the level you want her, those people that are already doing well with her might be completely unstoppable (If Kharnmage isn't already ;-)) 

 

So using your car example you seem to be comparing Nekima to a F1 car. I can race a go cart round a track pretty well, but I wouldn't have a clue with an F1 car, I would almost certainly stall it and crash it just trying to start it, but that doesn't make the F1 car a worse car than the go cart just because I can't use it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Kharnage said:

Those aren't even in my top 3. I don't know what's going on in the in the Spanish meta, and I appreciate that y'all got revenge for the Spanish Armada at UK nationals, but none of those masters come even close to Schtook. I will play any Sandeep, Dashel, or Shen Long player with Schtook, and I will win at least 4 out of every 5 games. 

I think, you have not played against a player who does well with any of those 3 masters. Because I assure you that with Von Stock you end up destroyed.
And above all Shenlong that makes you ultra counter.
Come on, I do not consider that any master resus is even among the top 5 of the game.

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2 hours ago, Kharnage said:

Hey, it's ya boi, Kharnage, back at it again with the God Empress Nekima. Good news to those of you who were dismayed when I faltered in my faith of Nekima; I have been restored to belief that she is actually still strong. 
Make no mistakes; Von Schtook is without a doubt the dumbest master in the game. If you want to farm easy wins and destroy morale, Von Schtook is the way to go. He has such a comically overtuned kit that I'm literally playing him to get him nerfed because apparently when I do well with a master they nerf them (RIP GG0 Nekima)
But that being said, Nekima is still crazy scary to deal with if you know what you're doing with her. I would love to get a game in against your heralded champion Felix with my girl Nekima, I think it would be a gratifying game to play. Playing Nekima to her fullest requires a consummate understanding of when and where to go in, and how to leverage positioning to your advantage. While losing Butterfly Jump hurt, Scamper was a solid replacement, and now can work in the middle of her activation to cause more blade rush even into reach 2 foes. Additionally, the crew I used to run got retooled a bit since the Inhuman Reflexes nerf; Hayreddin doesn't use it well anymore. Instead, Ancient Pact on Hayreddin is my go to since Necrotic Decay + Black Joker = feels bad, and guaranteeing a quadruple pustule round is quite fulfilling. Dropping a mature for Serena w/ Ancient Pact, and giving my remaining Mature Inhuman Reflexes. While he technically "reduces the effectiveness" of Scamper because of Combat Finesse, there's still plenty of cheating that happens in a melee that he can take advantage of, and we gained some plink damage and mobility to boot. While this lost me some card draw in comparison with my infamous double Mature build, I gained a reliable targeted healer with some armor pen and condition removal, which were things I sorely longed for in my previous build. It also leaves me with 9 stones, which helps to serve the God Empress.
If you're having problems with playing Nekima to victory and have as many games under your belt as you say, then... maybe her play style is not your thing? At the end of the day, she's hard to play because knowing what she can and cannot deal with is important. If that's not something you want to deal with, then a squishball beater isn't going to be for you. 

Mature this, mature that... damn you man, now I have to go to one of those 18+ websites. 

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2 hours ago, darksoul281 said:

I undestand you, but one of the biggest problem of nekima (and Melee beaters that no have defensive techs) is the card draw, with nekima you Need all the cards to hit hard but you Need all Your cards to survive xD nekima easy eat 8/9 stones in prevent and draw cards in the start phase and not compensate the 23/24 ss (the "cost" and the ss you use) compared with other masters that make a very nice rol without using ss and a lot of cards

Mele beaters in general require a high investment. They are going deep into the enemy crew, so they are putting themselves at high risk of retaliation; if you are going to throw a model as expensive as a master into such danger, then you need a really solid plan and resources to back it up. That's a big cache of minimum 7SS, Focused, movement, extra cards, defensive tech...

Nekima is an extreme case for how little Df tech she has access to. I can't talk about Justice or Vicks but I've played Misaki and the differences are noticeable. With a list built around Nekima (and in my case OOK), I find her very dangerous, but she requires a lot of support. And to keep her in the game I need to exploit both her range 2 (Black blood is great, but I rather not getting attacked) and her mobility. Something that works for me if I think she will get punished hard after the turn 1 rush is getting the back to back activation, use her 2 first actions for damage, getting (stonning if needed) the shove aside in the second one and use that push plus the last action as movement to put 10'' between the enemy crew and her (if possible into my crew, but if not trying to use the terrain to make her harder to reach), then I either advance with the rest of my crew so any enemy model retaliating will walk into my crew or further Lure her into safety to patch her and get her ready to attack the next turn. Leaving her in the middle of the enemy crew is asking for big trouble (and yes, that will eat throught your cache FAST, for me the key to play Nekima is minimice the oportunities the other player has to attack her). 

With Misaki on the other hand, I don't deal high damage as consistently as with Nekima (but when she pulls off a double critical strike moderate or severe... that's good damage); however she is safer and I find myself using SS more often for damage triggers and being more confortable with a not so big cache, her global mobility is great for the threat, scheming potential and to attack in areas where the enemy is weak. She also doesn't need that much support to work: A Tanuki in turn 1 to load her with Focused (BBS' pulse is very good, but it also requires an investment and mask, a pair of Tanukis have an easier time stacking Focused into 1 or 2 models and the TN7 can be eased with Yamaziko in her crew; who is also a very versatile and useful model) and a few shadow markers that her crew provides without any effort (and Charge through also make her "low unkeep"). 1 Tanuki, that's what takes to make her work. Misaki is also more verstaile than Nekima delivering damage, with Focused plus Charge through, she may bypass H2W, Nekima has a harder time into that as she loses the good part of her damage track and with her non-attack stunned, she may disable defensive triggers and take on models Nekima can't.

I like Nekima, but it's not an easy model to play by any means and she is very one dimensional with glaring weaknesses; she does has her strongh points but you better make good use of them and play her in the right pools. But again, I don't play Nekima as leader nor into big tournaments so please take my opinions with a pinch of salt.

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2 hours ago, darksoul281 said:

No, the most faction haven't options to avoid triggers or hit her mv or size and the shockwaves have usually a low damage. 

Serene countenace is one of the best defensive techs, you Can avoid with focus or ss but you use one action for the focus or lose one ss to try to hit colette, in both cases usually colette avoid the damage with the trigger and usually one ss

yes, especially when u have 2 bbs, just a vaste of actions

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2 hours ago, Kharnage said:

Those aren't even in my top 3. I don't know what's going on in the in the Spanish meta, and I appreciate that y'all got revenge for the Spanish Armada at UK nationals, but none of those masters come even close to Schtook. I will play any Sandeep, Dashel, or Shen Long player with Schtook, and I will win at least 4 out of every 5 games. 

lets play, will see

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3 minutes ago, Plaag said:

yes, especially when u have 2 bbs, just a vaste of actions

Really? XD

Is not worth take 12 stones for the focus, the bbs are very weak models and they give focus More than 1 time in deploidment Is lose turns and points, because if you arent in cover with the bbs the bbs die

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3 minutes ago, darksoul281 said:

Really? XD

Is not worth take 12 stones for the focus, the bbs are very weak models and they give focus More than 1 time in deploidment Is lose turns and points, because if you arent in cover with the bbs the bbs die

I agree BBS doesn't sound as an answer to Colette; but about the Focused.

Have you tried an opening with Vasilisa+BBS? 2 Pulses of Focused from 1 BBS and a Mature in turn 1 (it requires 2 masks and 1 scheme marker so I usually include also a doll to put adversary in the model the BBS is going to knife and drop the marker).

The other player doesn't have that much time to kill the BBS, it's easier to put Focused+2 in several models in turn 1 than when they took off, and from turn 2 you may play with a full Mature with 8 Wds. And with the Adversary is reasonably consistent.

That opening works very well for me, but I'd apreciate knowing how that works in a very competitive local meta like yours.

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2 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I agree BBS doesn't sound as an answer to Colette; but about the Focused.

Have you tried an opening with Vasilisa+BBS? 2 Pulses of Focused from 1 BBS and a Mature in turn 1 (it requires 2 masks and 1 scheme marker so I usually include also a doll to put adversary in the model the BBS is going to knife and drop the marker).

The other player doesn't have that much time to kill the BBS, it's easier to put Focused+2 in several models in turn 1 than when they took off, and from turn 2 you may play with a full Mature with 8 Wds. And with the Adversary is reasonably consistent.

That opening works very well for me, but I'd apreciate knowing how that works in a very competitive local meta like yours.

That's some creative use of those abilities. Never occurred to me to adversary myself! Will have to see if I can find a way to get that into a Reva crew.

EDIT: Nope, not possible. That little trick is likely something most factions don't have, and I bet there's at least a few other ways that it would be really strong - wonder if Lucius can abuse it?

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1 hour ago, darksoul281 said:

Really? XD

Is not worth take 12 stones for the focus, the bbs are very weak models and they give focus More than 1 time in deploidment Is lose turns and points, because if you arent in cover with the bbs the bbs die

try to play them a little bit different way, so they can give all of your band 2 focuses for the first and 2 turn

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17 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I agree BBS doesn't sound as an answer to Colette; but about the Focused.

Have you tried an opening with Vasilisa+BBS? 2 Pulses of Focused from 1 BBS and a Mature in turn 1 (it requires 2 masks and 1 scheme marker so I usually include also a doll to put adversary in the model the BBS is going to knife and drop the marker).

The other player doesn't have that much time to kill the BBS, it's easier to put Focused+2 in several models in turn 1 than when they took off, and from turn 2 you may play with a full Mature with 8 Wds. And with the Adversary is reasonably consistent.

That opening works very well for me, but I'd apreciate knowing how that works in a very competitive local meta like yours.

I can try but I dont see future for this combo 😕

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