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Lure Rulings


Defier93

Question

A question popped up in the Resser chat on Lures. Couple things:

1. If the Lure target is Base to Base, can the Target be moved 0", triggering Pounce on a Rotten Belle? (I think yes)

2. If BtB, can the target be moved around the base of the Belle? I think no, given moving in any direction except directly towards the center of the base would technically be moving away, contradicting the Towards and Away rules (pg 15 CRB) 

 

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It's the first paragraph of the Moving rules:

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During a game, objects (most often models, but sometimes Markers or terrain) will move around the table (but never off it). Any time something changes location or is affected by a movement effect, it is considered to have moved (even if it moved 0").

In other words, if you're subjected to a movement effect (move, push, place, etc), you're treated as moving whether you actually change position or not.

 

5 hours ago, Defier93 said:

2. If BtB, can the target be moved around the base of the Belle? I think no, given moving in any direction except directly towards the center of the base would technically be moving away, contradicting the Towards and Away rules (pg 15 CRB) 

You've got the wrong reason on a technicality:

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It is possible for a model in base contact with another model to move around that model without breaking base contact.

So moving in a circle around the base doesn't violate the prohibitions in the last two paragraphs of "Towards and Away"--if you're still in base contact the whole time the distance hasn't changed.  At that point, all of the base contact positions are equally 'as close as possible', and you're just moving from one to the other.

Disclaimer:  Both of these are situations where the M3E rules differ from how M2E and its collected FAQs operated.  

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28 minutes ago, solkan said:

So moving in a circle around the base doesn't violate the prohibitions in the last two paragraphs of "Towards and Away"--if you're still in base contact the whole time the distance hasn't changed.  At that point, all of the base contact positions are equally 'as close as possible', and you're just moving from one to the other.

 

So is it possible to drag them around as long as they maintain base contact with the Belle?

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The question isn't Base to Base though. It's Towards. It states that an object must move toward the 'center' of the other object. Moving around the base means you are no longer moving 'toward the center' of the object, but off to the side of the object. I'm fine if it were ruled this way, but  you can't physically move 'toward the center' and be moving around something. It doesn't matter if you are still the same distance if you are moving away. The only time moving away is allowed is to go around the things that would impede movement and then only if gets you as close as possible. Yes, moving around doesn't change the distance, but also is not moving towards the center of the object. I would argue once you are in BtB you are as close as possible to the object. Any further movement would be away from the center of the object. 

 

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5 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

The question isn't Base to Base though. It's Towards. It states that an object must move toward the 'center' of the other object. Moving around the base means you are no longer moving 'toward the center' of the object, but off to the side of the object. I'm fine if it were ruled this way, but  you can't physically move 'toward the center' and be moving around something. It doesn't matter if you are still the same distance if you are moving away. The only time moving away is allowed is to go around the things that would impede movement and then only if gets you as close as possible. Yes, moving around doesn't change the distance, but also is not moving towards the center of the object. I would argue once you are in BtB you are as close as possible to the object. Any further movement would be away from the center of the object. 

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If your distance doesn't change then you are literally not moving away. However you're also not moving towards, so you can't fulfill the requirement of moving towards the object.

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9 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

If your distance doesn't change then you are literally not moving away. However you're also not moving towards, so you can't fulfill the requirement of moving towards the object.

Interpreting it this way opens up so many issues tho. For example, Lure forces the target to move its entire move. So if thats the case then the Lurer wouldnt even get to control where the model ended up, it would just spin around the Model's base until it runs out of movement. Then, you have to worry about which way the model would be spinning, clockwise or countercockwise, since either way would have the model end up in a different position

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1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

If your distance doesn't change then you are literally not moving away. However you're also not moving towards, so you can't fulfill the requirement of moving towards the object.

What requirement isn’t being fulfilled?

The written rules specify a few things:

- The reference point when dealing with models.

- Obstacles can be moved around if doing so would bring the moving object as close (or as far) as possible.

- That something moving toward an object can never increase the distance, even if the ultimate end point would be closer than otherwise possible.
 

The M3E rules don’t have the M2E provisions that the movement is “directly” towards or “directly” away.

And according to paragraphs three, four and five, if there were a large circular ring centered around a model, and there was an opening in one spot of that ring, a model moving away from the model at the center of the ring would be allowed to move along the ring while reducing its distance to the opening.  

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The paragraph that allows you to do funky things (like move around objects) is this one:

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In both cases, unless that something is being Pushed, it will move around things that would impede its movement (such as terrain with the Impassable or Severe traits, asdescribed on pg. 37), provided that doing so will get it as close or as far from the object as possible (as appropriate).

You're allowed to move around things that impede your movement, as long as it gets you as close to the object as possible. But moving around the target isn't moving around what is impeding you, and it's not resulting in getting closer.

The point about having to just wildly spin about is another good one - since Lure is move its move (and not up to its move), if you really can spin around the base, it'd be mandatory. And I have no idea how you'd even go about measuring that.

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Historically Lure and similar effects are hard to write rules for that aren't open to some form of abuse. Making them end up as close as possible still doesn't stop a player trying to make the lured model wander slightly off track though some hazardous terrain if the Model has enough movement to still reach the closest point, but its clearly not the "intended" way for a lure to work.

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8 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Interpreting it this way opens up so many issues tho. For example, Lure forces the target to move its entire move. So if thats the case then the Lurer wouldnt even get to control where the model ended up, it would just spin around the Model's base until it runs out of movement. Then, you have to worry about which way the model would be spinning, clockwise or countercockwise, since either way would have the model end up in a different position

There's no way to interperet a model moving along the edge of another model is moving away, because that directly contradicts the rule that a model can stay in base contact with a model while moving around it's base. However, as I stated and as @Maniacal_cackle expanded on, there is a potentially valid interpretation that a model already in base contact can't run around a base as it could never end the move closer than when it started.

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