Lucius’ Nightmare

[Regelridderen]

Had some fun facing off vs neverborn Lucius in a game of :

Flank, Recover Evidence - Breakthrough, Claim Jump, Hidden Martyrs, Let them bleed, Catch and Release.

I brought 

Dreamer, Chompy, 2 Daydreams, 2 Insidious Madness, 1 Stitched, Serena Bowman, Candy (Breakthrough and Claim on Serena)

Vs

Lucius, Scribe, A46, Hinamatsu, Doppleganger, Blood Shaman, 2 Lawyers (Catch...on shaman and Claim on Hinamatsu)

Round 1.

Lucius aimed hard Putting all his forces towards 1 flank while pulsing Focus out on the whole crew. I moved to counter putting all my forces into receiving him in a bottleneck, while sending a lone Madness around to score Breakthrough on its own.

Round 2.

This is when the scrap started, Hinamatsu bore the brunt of my charges (darn she’s tough), while A46 and the Doppleganger got in to help her. I summoned a madness, Alp and Daydream. The madness got killed (but in Evidence, killing summoned models is a waste of AP). While my Nightmares managed to bring down Agent46. Serena got in position to Claim Jump (The Doppleganger tried to stop her, but she teleported her away). and the Shaman turned into a mature nephilim and C&R’ed LCB. And Candy landed in the middle of the skuffle and got ready to shut things down). My outflanking madness held back on scoring Breakthrough instead stripping the Doppleganger of focus and handing out Distracted. 
Score 2 - 1

Round 3.

Dreamer started bringing in another Alp and putting Adversary on Hinamatsu, who then ‘wasted’ 5 pass tokens defending herself against three Daydreams Bend Reality. Killed off the Alp, but at the price of Hinamatsu and the mature Nephilim - both getting Executed by LCB. My outflanking Madness started scoring Breakthrough and with the brunt of the Mimic crew gone, we decided to call it. 

final score 8 - 1

AFTERMATH It was my first time running Dreamer in gg1, and as always he delivered. The new stitched are great, more in Tune with the crews attack on Wp, while getting toned down. Madnesses are amazing tar pits - and a great use of rams. I focused a lot on Lucid Dreams and Your Nightmare throughout the game, trying to relieve the pressure on my hand, which worked great (as my hands were usually 1csevere 1 moderate and 4 weak cards). Candy was great. The combination between her Stun/Slow and the Alps neg flips on damage, took the sting out of opponent. And with his beaters low Wp, Chompys and the madness put a drain on cards.

I used to use Ancient Pact Daydreams, and the card draw is great. I completely forgot about upgrades though, and I didn’t miss them. 

[Ogid]

23 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

but at the price of Hinamatsu and the mature Nephilim - both getting Executed by LCB.

Lol What?... either you played masterfully or it wasn't your oponent's day... Did you got 2 executes versus Lucius without him having cards on hand nor SS!? Poor guy.

Hina is great, but I'm not sure if its the right pick versus the Dreamer... there are 4 models in that crew able to ignore armor, and Hinamatsu spam attacks doesn't go well versus incorporeal or terrifying. Angel Eyes could had been a better pick instead, specially with both Mimics, a BBS and so few sustain.

[Regelridderen]

At the point, I’d been spamming Bend Reality from 3 Daydreams, and hit him with 2 Alps and a Madness where he used his (5) pass tokens for +flips. He’d failed every Terrifying check and A46 had eaten his stones before dying. So he was drained of resources. 

Hinamatsu took a Severe Execute, so would have died in any case, and when I saw his hand was dead the Nephilim became a light afterdinner snack with a soulstone. 

-

We both agreed Hinamatsu proved not to be a great pick. Armour+2 and shielded is tough, and she was an amazing doorstop, but being reliant on Masks isn’t good for the crew, and he’d taken her for Flurry+Onslaught. Which again are draining to copy.

I was thinking maybe doing Lucius with Angel Eyes and an extra BBS. Hand out a ton of focus to your gunline, then let the Neph fly. 

[extremor]

With angel eyes and agent you surely want more ss than 4 so you can get crit Strike or armor piercing more often. 
 

but tbh the encounter is not suited well for Lucius. Esp. against dreamer.
 

I like your List. 2 madness seem really good with this pool (evidence and claim jump and catch). 

[Regelridderen]

I agree the matchup was skewed, but it was just a friendly randomly generated scenario. He'd brought Lucius, 'cause he wanted to start getting into Neverborn, and I dusted off my Dreamer after a something like a years hiatus. But it was good fun, and we both learned a few tidbits.

Madnesses are indeed great, they're fast, they're tough. They heal themselves up, and amassing terror puts a strain on your opponents resources.

I'll also give a shoutout for Candy in a Nightmare crew. She brings a ton of Wp duels at range, and her main abilities require very little in the form of cards. Once she's in position, she basically just needs to stand there and look innocent. If you can get her to move and Glimpse-teleport by the end of T1, you're golden.

[Ogid]

Well, valuable lessons were learned that day (especially about hand management and Execute XD). That's always good.

10 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

I was thinking maybe doing Lucius with Angel Eyes and an extra BBS. Hand out a ton of focus to your gunline, then let the Neph fly.

I've also thought in that one but I haven't played it yet... I've avoided double BBS for how unreliable the opening is; but if there is a master able to get 4 corpses in turn 1, that's Lucius. 4SS does seem a bit low, but it's not easy to downgrade anything there... and it's maybe a bit vulnerable in turns 1-2.

There are a lot of firepower and 2 potential Matures late into the game tho, it might be legit in the right pool.

5 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Madnesses are indeed great, they're fast, they're tough. They heal themselves up, and amassing terror puts a strain on your opponents resources.

I've summoned a few, but I think I've never hired one lol.

5 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

I'll also give a shoutout for Candy in a Nightmare crew. She brings a ton of Wp duels at range, and her main abilities require very little in the form of cards. Once she's in position, she basically just needs to stand there and look innocent. If you can get her to move and Glimpse-teleport by the end of T1, you're golden.

Nightmare/Woe mixs well. I've tried some crossovers, and this one in particular was in my list of things to try. Glad to hear it does work.

There are also a few shenanigans to trade healing for agression with a few models. Burnt-Out trigger in both LCB and Teddy nets 0 damage and 1 extra action for them when they activate thanks to Armor/Regen; the timing is a bit akward because Candy likes the last activation but it has potential.

[Regelridderen]

@Ogid I’d definitely recommend hiring madnesses. They can do a lot being fast, tough and having a decent attack - and be a model to use your rams - and Lucid Dream.

But what no player prepares for is that the little bugger running schemes on a far flank can suddenly strip a model on the opposite side on the table of its focus and hand out distracted.

Aside from that it is incredibly demoralizing to your opponent, when you summon your models back after killing, which doesn’t happen with say a Teddy or Coppelius.

-

I wasn’t much of a fan, usually looking to flashier enforcers, when going above 6 stones, but a few games of Henchman Hardcore showed me their strength. 

[Ogid]

@Regelridderen That's totally what happens to me, above 6SS I start looking for more premium models; so these don't usually make into my lists.

They are decent tarpits, but as a model hired to run schemes focused on mobility like breakthrough I've always seen them a bit lackluster; they have that global utility so it's ok if they aren't super good for that, but if I'm hiring a 7SS schemer, I need it to pull its weight there. IM can be shut down just sending a tanky cheapish model, that's enough to make hard for them to score or force me to send another summon to deal with it; which leave then both stuck in that flank... I like picking spiders for that, I may send 1, both if I want to really dominate the flank. With the extra advantage that they aren't stuck there after it; also WW into the dream web is a big playmaker good to have in the crew.

Another reason I favor summoning them is because they are good debuffing enemy models, but after the brawl is going on and are in range; so I have no rush to have them on the table. Disembodied Voices is very reliable, but the short range make hard to remove focused before enemies have the chance to strike in the initial clash; with a Move+Disembodied range of 9'' they are have a hard time stopping an alpha striker to go in and deliver the payload (and another model spinballed to get in ranged has a good chance to get killed/pushed before IM can act) and after that the striker is usually Focused depleted, unless the enemy went for some crazy Focused stacking opening or it still has focused but also is planning a back to back activation. To have a chance to stop Focused alpha strikers I tend to rely more on The Carver, (double walk and glimpse has a range of 18'').

It doesn't help that as I don't play that often and in an enviroment prone to interruptions, games don't usually go to later turns. I'm more used to play early game focused lists low in LD to close the deal in turn 2-3 and I haven't still fully explored the most Lucid Dream focused lists. In those at least 1 seems a good investment because LD scales better in bulk and the crew may use a tanky model able to drag the game until the deck is really hot while contributing to it; but I don't see them in a early game focused list.

For example, I have this list queued for a while to try, where I do plan to hire 1 or 2:

Dre Seven (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 5
Leader:
  The Dreamer
Totem(s):
  Lord Chompy Bits
Hires:
  Coppelius
  Serena Bowman
  Insidious Madness
  Stitched Together
  Stitched Together 2
  Daydream
  Daydream 2
  Daydream 3

Notes in case someone want to try it: The idea is play slow in turns 1-2 while Lucid Dreaming like crazy; Serena and Coppelius are there to keep minions alive early (and contribute to damage later); LD should be focused on eliminating low cards, only saving high ones for Stitcheds when the flip has no low cards; not losing minions early is key. Coppelius should be played safe (keeping Nightmares alive with Unhinge / Controling enemies and keep the scheming in check with Whispered); the longer he is alive, the bigger threat he will become when weak cards disapear from the deck and his 5 moderate damage start to appear more often. Coppelius can be swapped by another insidious, WW, Vasilisa, BBS, Effigy(+EoF+Daydream upgraded to Stitcheds) or any other model as needed. This list will be probably good in corner deployment (maybe in standard versus a slow crew or a crew that also needs to scale) and with a pool that favors heavy interaction between crews.

Anyway, I'm open to learn about good match ups and lists where IM are good hires! 

[Regelridderen]

Looks like a fine LD-list. Does what Dreamer does best and just escalate the nightmare. 

I would just throw in an extra comment on IM. You say, they can be stopped by a cheap tank, but you should take into account that the tank can soon be facing not only an IM, but an Alp or Stitched as well. 

In the end its always a toss-up between Stitched and Madnesses (as choosing an Enforcer means forgoing an LD and changes the strategy). Stitched losing Df6, but Gamble becoming a WP-duel has leveled the field. The mobility of Incorporeal and the Mv6 is really what makes the Madness stand out to me - and that probably has something to do with the nature of the boards I play on. 

[extremor]

@Ogid i would consider droping copelius for Hinamatsu. With that much LD she becomes a horrible beast with her plusflip. 
 

I use IM in 50-60% or my lists. If not so I summon It 1st or 2nd turn. And I love scatter the most. An awesome Action that allways succeds

[Ogid]

On 9/2/2020 at 3:09 PM, extremor said:

@Ogid i would consider droping copelius for Hinamatsu. With that much LD she becomes a horrible beast with her plusflip. 
 

I use IM in 50-60% or my lists. If not so I summon It 1st or 2nd turn. And I love scatter the most. An awesome Action that allways succeds

Good point, Hina would also be good if the list doesn't expect agression early.

However I'd still try Coppelius or Vasilisa in that list, at least in the first ride. That list is best case scenario for Coppelius, a model that I don't put that often in the table; how squishy he is discourage me a bit. And Vasilisa may let me push the LD theme even more; she makes the list more resilient early (both healing with healing or summoning killed stitcheds again if the right card happen to be in the hand); and she may also contribute to Lucid Dreams with her bonus action; being able to reach 8 LD the first turn with her.

 

Wow, that's almost an staple. Why do you pick him so often?

I'm reluctant to give up an enforcer/henchman or a possible OOK for just 1 source of LD more. LD is good, but it's imho one of those abilities better in bulk, the difference between 3 and 4 LDs isn't big, but nop picking another model is very noticeable when attacking and defending early (and also going agro early it's easy to slower even more the card removal by picking a few cards for stitcheds). However after reaching 5-6 sources of LD, the list isn't that good early and extra sources are going to make a difference if the game is drag long enough. Most of my Dreamer lists have 2 or 3 LD sources (those being 2 daydreams and sometimes 1 Stitcheds).

[extremor]

I guess its because I love mobility. I love to move my models and the opponents models around. My Crews are: sandeep, colette, Lucius, Collodi/Hinamatsu and Dreamer. Those Crews can move a lot and it makes it easy to deny vp to my opponent. Thats how I win games a lot: score whenever it is easy and dont let the opponent score. I use to play woodelves a lot during warhammer fantasy times and kept working that way. And therefor scatter is brilliant. Gettig enemy models out of position and do whatever I want. LD is secondary to me. Controll the board. Thats how i roll. And maybe its possible in my region- im from germany don’t know international meta yet..... 

 

edit: in Hinamatsu I learned the value of bunraku though this forum and your Posts. Hina and the puppets can do a lot of lures...!!!