Marcus Dreams

[Peturd]

The problem with trigger off a trigger pouncing strike and onslaught. Marcus shouldn’t be able to set off attack chains that long, in a crew that can drop mutations for suits to guarantee them. The faq went the right way I think

[extremor]

29 minutes ago, Adran said:

If Marcus was intended to do this, you'd have thought the faq would have gone that way, since this is probably the action most effected by that change. 

i can hardly believe Wyrd wanted to nerf Marcus specificly... I thought of this decision being a general one, since there are a lot of factions/crews/models/actions affected by this errata! And therefor I intended to change it only to call of the wild. If Onslaught, Coordinated Attack, Pouncing Strike etc. would also generate chain attacks, these triggers would be way too strong/dominant. But maybe you are right and Wyrd just wants a AP-tradeoff where 1AP can only generate 1 AP! It's the same with Lucius' issue command, but lucius gets to draw a card doing so and therefor has some benefit. He also has 2 useful triggers and can also generate other kinds of actions like )... if compared, Lucius gets way more benefit changing 1 Master-AP to an other models AP... and even though Lucius is not regarded a strong or OP master.

Its a wishlist after all. I simply want marcus to be at a better state so others might also want to play him. I'm open to other suggestions.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, extremor said:

i can hardly believe Wyrd wanted to nerf Marcus specificly... I thought of this decision being a general one, since there are a lot of factions/crews/models/actions affected by this errata! And therefor I intended to change it only to call of the wild. If Onslaught, Coordinated Attack, Pouncing Strike etc. would also generate chain attacks, these triggers would be way too strong/dominant. But maybe you are right and Wyrd just wants a AP-tradeoff where 1AP can only generate 1 AP! It's the same with Lucius' issue command, but lucius gets to draw a card doing so and therefor has some benefit. He also has 2 useful triggers and can also generate other kinds of actions like )... if compared, Lucius gets way more benefit changing 1 Master-AP to an other models AP... and even though Lucius is not regarded a strong or OP master.

Its a wishlist after all. I simply want marcus to be at a better state so others might also want to play him. I'm open to other suggestions.

The only other case I can think of effected  is if the enslaved trigger on Zoraidas obey takes a charge action.

I'm sure there are 1 or two other cases but there are very few triggers that create an action that then creates another action, which is very different to onslaught etc. Which didn't change in that errata. ( although I played the last 2 editions where those triggers did lead to more actions and the world didn't end...)

You can wish for what you want, and this is a good place to discuss them. I was just disagreeing with your reasoning. 

Edit And I think peturd has misunderstood the errata. Before it, onslaught couldn't create new actions, just as now. The errata did not change triggers on actions generated by a trigger, but rather triggers on actions generated by actions generated by triggers which as I say is very few cases. 

[Peturd]

10 minutes ago, Adran said:

The only other case I can think of effected  is if the enslaved trigger on Zoraidas obey takes a charge action.

I'm sure there are 1 or two other cases but there are very few triggers that create an action that then creates another action, which is very different to onslaught etc. Which didn't change in that errata. ( although I played the last 2 editions where those triggers did lead to more actions and the world didn't end...)

You can wish for what you want, and this is a good place to discuss them. I was just disagreeing with your reasoning. 

Edit And I think peturd has misunderstood the errata. Before it, onslaught couldn't create new actions, just as now. The errata did not change triggers on actions generated by a trigger, but rather triggers on actions generated by actions generated by triggers which as I say is very few cases. 

Nope, I’m not sure why you are assuming that from what I wrote, but I can only read from my own point of view. Must be a me problem

[Jordon]

I do get annoyed having upgrades "locked" on models but after a few games I've learned not to put certain upgrades on certain models (or I've learned not to hire those models). 

What I dislike about Marcus in this faction is the utter lack of cheap models. Moleman are just awful, especially when SS miners do the job so much better with no support. I've started to warm up to initiates but they're still not exactly cheap, and they also are fairly needy in terms of support. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'd love to see poison gamin gain the beast keyword. It might actually give me more incentive to hire rattlers and scorpius. They would fit so well in the crew and would't need as much babysitting like so many of the other chimera. 

Marcus needs cheap bodies and Moleman are not cutting it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I tried finding the FAQ that affected Marcus and I'm not finding it. What was it?

[Adran]

3 hours ago, Peturd said:

Nope, I’m not sure why you are assuming that from what I wrote, but I can only read from my own point of view. Must be a me problem

I reread what you wrote and think I now know what you were saying, that you didn't like Marcus setting up a model to be able to attack and then onslaught from that attack to get a second attack, I'd read it that you thought a model with onslaught used to be able onslaught over and over again.

 

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I tried finding the FAQ that affected Marcus and I'm not finding it. What was it?

It was an errata, not an faq, now I think about it. 

[MrPieChee]

2 hours ago, Jordon said:

I do get annoyed having upgrades "locked" on models but after a few games I've learned not to put certain upgrades on certain models (or I've learned not to hire those models). 

What I dislike about Marcus in this faction is the utter lack of cheap models. Moleman are just awful, especially when SS miners do the job so much better with no support. I've started to warm up to initiates but they're still not exactly cheap, and they also are fairly needy in terms of support. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'd love to see poison gamin gain the beast keyword. It might actually give me more incentive to hire rattlers and scorpius. They would fit so well in the crew and would't need as much babysitting like so many of the other chimera. 

Marcus needs cheap bodies and Moleman are not cutting it.

Your first comment leads to the most suggested change to Marcus - having adaptive evolution moved to the upgrade cards.

Your final comment is the exact opposite of what I've seen from every other Marcus player on this forum - Marcus builds elite crews and ignores cheap models because that's the most efficient way to use master ap/upgrades.

I'd like to see Marcus able to give upgrades to multiple models, with the target number based on the model cost, so you can dish out lots of upgrades to cheap models, or one to an elite model. A pre game upgrade ability might be an easier way to make cheap models more efficient...

[Peturd]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I reread what you wrote and think I now know what you were saying, that you didn't like Marcus setting up a model to be able to attack and then onslaught from that attack to get a second attack, I'd read it that you thought a model with onslaught used to be able onslaught over and over again.

 

It was an errata, not an faq, now I think about it. 

That’s generous but ... Stepping away for a bit and re-reading it, I think the way I wrote it I would have taken it the way you did the first time. But you say what I meant more succinctly than I did. Hahaha

Back on topic, I do wish there was more options to have a beast horde instead of just elites. I love the story with the swarm of birds. A crappy (low SS disposable) hound option would be great too. Just to give another play style option, for different pools etc

[extremor]

On 12/31/2020 at 1:36 AM, Peturd said:

Back on topic, I do wish there was more options to have a beast horde instead of just elites. I love the story with the swarm of birds. A crappy (low SS disposable) hound option would be great too. Just to give another play style option, for different pools etc

Maybe this is where NVB Marcus kicks in. I haven’t played corrupted hounds yet so I haven’t got a clue. 
 

next wish (if not the trigger thing) would be upgrades get plentiful 3 instead of 2... I just love camouflage❤️

[MrPieChee]

Corrupted hounds are awful in their own keyword, and even worse with Marcus!

All hounds across factions need a rework.

[ShinChan]

My main complain against Marcus is that because of his upgrades, many non-Chimera beast suck. Just plain and simple, since Marcus could put upgrades on them and make them over the top, in their respective keywords they feel really lacking.

I would like a design change that allows Marcus to put upgrades only on Chimera. This way, the non-chimera beast could see small buffs here and there, making them more competent in their keywords while being able to operate with Marcus, without the need of putting upgrades on them.

Maybe this could be supported with a small buff to Marcus, like decreasing the TN or giving him a suit, another trigger, another "something". I've just played him once, so probably you'll have better ideas for him.

[Jordon]

Any suggestions for making Molemen worth taking for Marcus? My main issues with them
 

• They need to be taken in pairs/other models to drop scheme markers in order to make their gimmic work
• They're probably the worst target for mutations and not worth investing a masters AP into
• They can only bury via a DF trigger but in all likelihood they'll die before getting to use it since they are paper thin
• They're just not good at their role as a scheme runner
• SS miner does the work of two moleman but better

[Mycellanious]

14 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Any suggestions for making Molemen worth taking for Marcus? My main issues with them
 

• They need to be taken in pairs/other models to drop scheme markers in order to make their gimmic work
• They're probably the worst target for mutations and not worth investing a masters AP into
• They can only bury via a DF trigger but in all likelihood they'll die before getting to use it since they are paper thin
• They're just not good at their role as a scheme runner
• SS miner does the work of two moleman but better

I think the Molemen need 2 changes: 1 to utility, and 1 for survivability.
 

Utility:

Currently the Molemen have a pretty powerful Bonus Action, however its largely made irrelevant by the fact that the only way Chimera creates Scheme Markers is by having a model take the Interact Action. That means that other MORE EXPENSIVE models needs to spend their own Actions supporting this 4 ss minion, which is terrible from an efficiency standpoint. Not to mention, if you already had a model near a place where you wanted to drop a Scheme Marker, why would you bother dropping a Marker so the Moleman could then Bonus Action up and, drop another Marker? It just doesn't make sense.

My suggestion would be to increase the power of that Bonus Action. Currently it is restricted to Friendly Scheme Marker, but I think it really should be ANY Scheme Marker. This would give them a powerful role as a deep Anti-Schemer in Chimera, which would actually be very beneficial as it would allow other, more expensive models to focus on scoring points or attacking enemies. I considered proposing allowing the Bonus Action to Target ANY Marker (obv not Strategy) but felt that may be a bit too powerful.

Survivability:

The Molemen have 4 wounds and a Trigger to bury themselves as defensive tech. Technically, Marcus can put Upgrades on them, but since the Upgrades have a limit of 2 and there is no way for the Molemen to remove those Upgrade, it would be a terrific waste of Marcus' resources and AP. They are 4ss minions so clearly they can't  be difficult to remove, but currently they casually get oneshot by the Moderate damage of most models. 

My suggestion would be to buff their Df Trigger a little bit. I would have it reduce the damage from the Action by 1. That way, there are still valid paths to remove this cheap Minion, such as forcing through Severe damage or attacking its WP (which you probably want to be attacking vs Chimera anyway), but it also allows the Moleman to have a place where it is powerful. Currently, even if it declares its Df Trigger, it almost never gets to live long enough to actually be used. 

[Jinn]

7 hours ago, ShinChan said:

My main complain against Marcus is that because of his upgrades, many non-Chimera beast suck. Just plain and simple, since Marcus could put upgrades on them and make them over the top, in their respective keywords they feel really lacking.

I would like a design change that allows Marcus to put upgrades only on Chimera. This way, the non-chimera beast could see small buffs here and there, making them more competent in their keywords while being able to operate with Marcus, without the need of putting upgrades on them.

Maybe this could be supported with a small buff to Marcus, like decreasing the TN or giving him a suit, another trigger, another "something". I've just played him once, so probably you'll have better ideas for him.

Aren't most of the non-Chimera beasts pretty decent? Certainly not as bad as the terrible in keyword beasts like Molemen, Slate Ridge Maulers and Razorspines.

Blessed is one of the best beasts period, Grootslang is way better than the Mauler for mostly the same role. 

Cheap models like Hoarcats and Corrupted Hounds suck just as much with Marcus as they do in keyword. These beasts just happen to suck, I don't think it's because they're balanced around Marcus.

[MrPieChee]

I'm not a fan of the idea you have to nerf beasts because Marcus might add an upgrade.

Those beasts have an ap (or more) from a master to make them better. If upgrades are too good, nerf them, not beasts that may never use an upgrade. But I think everyone can agree that Marcus doesn't need a nerf!

As jinn says, it doesn't appear that non-chimera models have been nerfed. Across the board low SS models are lacking a place in the game, but that's nothing to do with Marcus.

[Harlekin]

8 hours ago, Jinn said:

Razorspines

What's wrong with them? 
They lack Adaptive Evolution, but besides that they are totally underestimated. More or less a very fast kinda-Min3 Beater (1 damage comes at the end of the turn, though - which is a real boon against some crews. Looking at you, ARM)

[Jinn]

5 hours ago, Harlekin said:

What's wrong with them? 
They lack Adaptive Evolution, but besides that they are totally underestimated. More or less a very fast kinda-Min3 Beater (1 damage comes at the end of the turn, though - which is a real boon against some crews. Looking at you, ARM)

Poison +1 is very far from min 3, especially on a 2/3/4 spread. For one though, the Scorpius is absurdly better than this model for the same cost. For two, it's quite squishy for a 7SS model and, like all the other Chimera that rely on Marcus's upgrades to survive, that leaves it distinctly behind the beasts that are actually good on their own once upgrades are handed out. Why would I take this when the Scorpius has absurdly more powerful control abilities, is tankier, hits harder and has resource generation?

Similarly, Order Initiates are much less taxing in getting set up than this model and provide card draw for the same cost. For their costs: Blessed is better, Sabertooths are better, Crockett is better. What model in a Marcus list are you dropping to make room for a Razorspine?

[Harlekin]

Come with Df6 instead of Df5 and offer way more reliable mobility, even with Creep Along on the Scorpius. The Scorpius in general of course is the better model but that doesn't mean the Rattlers are bad. They are just a little bland.
Still, it's no either/or decision in my book. If I bring Scorpius a Rattler on his side for more poison output helps him a lot to make some use of his cool tricks. The Scorpius alone doesn't really shine and usually is mainly a tank piece. I tend to need the second activation with an independent source of Poison quite often to have the Scorpius really shine. 

I'd still prefer the Rattlers a bit weaker and to only cost 5 Stones (either that or they should have Adaptive Evolution - totally don't get it why they come without)  but I had some surprising success with them as they tend to be totally underestimated. Typically use them either as Poison buddies for the Scorp or for hunting cheap-ish Scheme runners which they eat like potato chips and which they prevent from just moving on.

EDIT: 
Good thing about the Rattlers is that they rely on nothing at all as they can roam totally independent. They already are fast and quite hard to hit and offer some okay threat. They definitely are no focus pieces but that's not only true for me but also the opponent. They are no real match for most other typical 7 Stones models but they are easily capable of hunting and destroying 2 3-5 Stone models per game. 

[Mycellanious]

32 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Poison +1 is very far from min 3, especially on a 2/3/4 spread. For one though, the Scorpius is absurdly better than this model for the same cost. For two, it's quite squishy for a 7SS model and, like all the other Chimera that rely on Marcus's upgrades to survive, that leaves it distinctly behind the beasts that are actually good on their own once upgrades are handed out. Why would I take this when the Scorpius has absurdly more powerful control abilities, is tankier, hits harder and has resource generation?

Similarly, Order Initiates are much less taxing in getting set up than this model and provide card draw for the same cost. For their costs: Blessed is better, Sabertooths are better, Crockett is better. What model in a Marcus list are you dropping to make room for a Razorspine?

I like the Rattler. It always punches above its weight class for me. Its a fantastic flank piece, since it can kill cheap scheme runners or tie up expensive scheme runners, but if it's left on its own it can score a whole crap ton of points, being capable of dropping 2 Scheme Markers a Turn unlike the Scorpius. Its also a Minion, which means it benefits from things like Magical Training (which I almost always put on it) as well as Minion specific schemes like Catch and Release. Finally its a HECK of a lot faster than something like the Scorpius, Deadly Pursuit is one of the most powerful abilities in the game. I personally have actually never hired the Scorpius, I've only ever Beat Shaped Myranda into one, since the only real benefit to the Scorpius is Neurotoxins and Myranda puts out Poison. 

[Jordon]

For me the Rattlers are the quintessential mediocre model for Marcus so I can understand how some people get it to work and why others don't.

They are pretty fast, albeit in a keyword that doesn't really need it. Their attack is quite honestly subpar for 7ss and they don't really have much else going on. Defense wise, all they have is Df6, while good, doesn't tend to keep them alive when I play them.

The best use I've gotten out of them is hunting down cheap scheme runners. Their speed enables them to hunt along the flanks and once engaged, it's almost impossible to walk away from them. Unfortunately that usually means it's better to attack them, which they're not very good at taking a punch.

At 6ss I'd be quite happy with them. However I do think they (and all Chimera models) need adaptive evolution to allow them to adapt to the situation. Otherwise it's simply too risky locking up good mutations onto them.

[MrPieChee]

Moving adaptive evolution to the upgrades comes up a lot!

I was thinking the other day, it would have been great to get an upgrade that gave regeneration and black blood. Would have really helped tie Marcus into neverborn, and opened up some fun lists.

It would also be great to have an upgrade with attuned.

[NoisyAssassin]

An upgrade with Regen, Black Blood, and maybe a trigger that makes them suffer damage for fun and profit would be neat, and a cool Neverborn nod. Unfortunately it looks like the only trigger like that that already exists is Necrotic Decay, which would be absolutely gross. 

[Jinn]

4 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I like the Rattler. It always punches above its weight class for me. Its a fantastic flank piece, since it can kill cheap scheme runners or tie up expensive scheme runners, but if it's left on its own it can score a whole crap ton of points, being capable of dropping 2 Scheme Markers a Turn unlike the Scorpius. Its also a Minion, which means it benefits from things like Magical Training (which I almost always put on it) as well as Minion specific schemes like Catch and Release. Finally its a HECK of a lot faster than something like the Scorpius, Deadly Pursuit is one of the most powerful abilities in the game. I personally have actually never hired the Scorpius, I've only ever Beat Shaped Myranda into one, since the only real benefit to the Scorpius is Neurotoxins and Myranda puts out Poison. 

The Scorpius can drop two scheme markers in an activation actually, and if your opponent runs out of cards it can drop three (almost never happens, nobody wants to deal with a 3 AP Scorpius so they'll usually save a weak). I'd really recommend hiring the Scorpius, slapping the Armor +1 upgrade on it and sending it to ruin the enemy Master's/Henchman's day. Seriously the Scorpius is so damn good for 7SS I can't imagine not including it in a Marcus list, I put that thing in there before I hire a Cerberus.

The thing about Marcus's upgrades is that they're insanely stronger on things that are already good to begin with. Giving a model like the Rattler Armor +1 and Butterfly Jump makes it tanky, giving it to an already tanky model like the Scorpius makes it just absolutely infuriatingly hard to kill.

If the Rattler had Neurotoxins I'd consider it competitive with the Scorpius. It would be squishier with much worse attacks but it would be faster and Constriction + Wicked would actually be really useful with Neurotoxins there to punish enemies who stayed engaged.

As for Magical Training, slap that on an Order Initiate and get two cards a turn out of it.

3 minutes ago, NoisyAssassin said:

An upgrade with Regen, Black Blood, and maybe a trigger that makes them suffer damage for fun and profit would be neat, and a cool Neverborn nod. Unfortunately it looks like the only trigger like that that already exists is Necrotic Decay, which would be absolutely gross. 

This would be interesting, I'd only worry about it comboing with Stampede making Order Initiates kind of disgusting, but maybe that's fine. I also wouldn't want to step on Nekima's toes too hard. I think more upgrades is definitely the way to fix Marcus, along with the usual 'Adaptive Evolution on the upgrades' idea. 

[Jordon]

20 minutes ago, Jinn said:

The thing about Marcus's upgrades is that they're insanely stronger on things that are already good to begin with. Giving a model like the Rattler Armor +1 and Butterfly Jump makes it tanky, giving it to an already tanky model like the Scorpius makes it just absolutely infuriatingly hard to kill.

That's what I've been noticing as well and the reason why people tend to run Marcus elite heavy. Less AP spent on the master to support the crew and maximizing the effectiveness of each upgrade.

It's interesting because Marcus is not the only master with this upgrade mechanic. Von Schill and McCabe both use upgrades in a very similar way to Marcus, but the major difference with those masters is that they give a lot more "abilities" instead of stat and triggered effects. A rocket launcher is a rocket launcher, regardless of who uses it. Now other abilities can still affect the action (easy access to focus, fast, ignoring cover etc.) but for the most part it's equal opportunity.

Funny enough, it can also have the opposite effect in that if the granted ability is worst than the one the model already has, then your less likely to see it on that model.

McCabe's feels like it's done the best with having built in abilities (good for cheap models) along with giving out fast (good for everyone, but especially on high end models). However even in his case, there still are more obvious choices for those upgrades but it seems to work out more universally than with Marcus' mutations. 

A Ruffian will benefit from a timeworn blade. A moleman will practically never benefit from Formidable Horns... Sadir will get some use from a faded mirror. A Cerberus will REALLY benefit from Feathered Wings. The balance just seems off with mutations