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Marcus Dreams


Peturd

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I truly think Marcus is better than a lot of people think, but agree he is worse than I’d like him to be! I have seen a lot of great suggestions already for him, but have an idea for the tiniest tweak that makes him and his keyword much stronger in certain matchups they are currently too weak in:

For the trigger Hunter’s Call, on his Call of the Wild ability add the line “*claw* actions generated by this Charge Action ignore terrifying and manipulative”. Helps in a low WP keyword, is niche so not as huge a buff, and feels fluffy and thematic!

Thoughts?!

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It'd help as that's one of the weaknesses of the keyword, but I'm not a fan of increasing his combat capabilities much more tbh... high mobility and good punch is a recipe for a master that can become OP/opressive easily or a master that will get weak models for the fear of those getting out of hand with the buffs.

Also as a NVB player, I wouldn't pick Marcus for his clashing potential, but for the mobility of the crew so this buff isn't that appealing to me, but I guess ARC are better suited to take advantage of the combat side of the crew... and that maybe could make some lists in ARC a bit too powerful. This master is very hard to balance tbh...

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2 hours ago, Peturd said:

I truly think Marcus is better than a lot of people think, but agree he is worse than I’d like him to be! I have seen a lot of great suggestions already for him, but have an idea for the tiniest tweak that makes him and his keyword much stronger in certain matchups they are currently too weak in:

For the trigger Hunter’s Call, on his Call of the Wild ability add the line “*claw* actions generated by this Charge Action ignore terrifying and manipulative”. Helps in a low WP keyword, is niche so not as huge a buff, and feels fluffy and thematic!

Thoughts?!

I actually like Marcus into Terrifying matchups, I find his crew does quite well, even if you need to play around it specifically. In such matchups I make sure to take Cojo (wp 7) Myranda (wp 6) and the Mech Rider (Ruthless) which is often enough combat power and the rest of my models can just do schemes. Cojo in particular is fantastic against Ressers, since he can easily attain a double or triple positive to his damage flip to counter HtW. I've had him one round Archie before. 

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15 hours ago, HomelessOne said:

I'd probably be happy just to have the Adaptive Evolution action moved onto the Mutation Upgrades, rather than just scattershot across chimera/beasts.

This change as it is would be a double edge sword for him. Right now any action that forces a model to perform an action may be used to force chimeras with that ability to discard a mutation; in match ups where obeys are expected picking a few models without that ability (and put camo in the one with it) may be actually good; without other adjustment he'll even more vulnerable to obey models (specially considering the low Wp in most beasts). Doing that AND changing the wording for it to work only in friendly-controled actions could be a good change. 

However unless we are talking about Initiates, cicling mutations isn't that good anyway, attaching them is expensive and beasts have a hard time surviving or being relevant without them.

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3 hours ago, Ogid said:

This change as it is would be a double edge sword for him. Right now any action that forces a model to perform an action may be used to force chimeras with that ability to discard a mutation; in match ups where obeys are expected picking a few models without that ability (and put camo in the one with it) may be actually good; without other adjustment he'll even more vulnerable to obey models (specially considering the low Wp in most beasts). Doing that AND changing the wording for it to work only in friendly-controled actions could be a good change. 

However unless we are talking about Initiates, cicling mutations isn't that good anyway, attaching them is expensive and beasts have a hard time surviving or being relevant without them.

Agreed, I’ve seen that suggestion and I don’t know that I’d want it half the time. The few that don’t have that ability aren’t usually hogging the type of mutation I want for the other beasts anyway. Besides, I personally don’t know what the right number of mutation targets is, but I know I don’t want to have 5 models that all want 2 mutations out at a time.

Im sure he is good but I’m not big on Ferdinand. And Paul doesn’t usually get one for me. Myranda can get hers off her if I need to.

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1 hour ago, Peturd said:

Besides, I personally don’t know what the right number of mutation targets is, but I know I don’t want to have 5 models that all want 2 mutations out at a time.

This is another problem with him, his mutations are expensive so it's a choice between playing with half the crew with OOK/Versatiles (and Marcus/Myranda cannot support those) or have an master struggling to support his crew and tossing mutations all game instead of using his AP to comand beasts (also sometimes the initial hand sucks and attach the 6 mutations in turn 1 is too luck dependent or require 3 SS). Multiple mutations make beasts quite good, but after taking in count all the cards, SS and AP expend, plus all the momentum given away; expending more than 1 AP after turn 1 in mutations isn't just worth it imo (specially as a NVB player that cannot use SS cache to further buff them). Marcus really need either be able to play a bit better with non-beasts or have an easier time attaching mutations.

In my case Cojo and 1 other model (using quick reflexes) get a mutation in turn 2, after that it's all about commands unless I really need to heal a beast with the trigger and I have a moderate ram in the hand. In turn 2+ where there will be a heavy interaction with the other player isn't just feasible to reach 4 high TNs (and maybe even have to use 2SS) to attach 4 mutations to beasts, leave the Master with 1 AP and the crew with a weak hand after having to cheat to attach those. Going too hard in mutations is a trap.

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Would giving all/most chimera models aspect of the wild be too much?

It could be modified to "Aspects (name of mutation)" so each model in the keyword can attach a specific mutation.

Also, if adaptive evolution was moved to the upgrade cards, then that would make space for another ability: "Shed Skin: model may discard an attached mutation upgrade to end one condition".

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I'm generally against mass card errataing, so I would probably look more along the line of introducing a new model with actions along the line of Myrandas Primal flame with flames of change trigger. Something like a lab assistant that is a primary support model, but also has triggers to discard Upgrades off chimera/beasts to give them other effects, the obvious one would be to discard an upgrade and have them take an action, allowing you to build a crew that doesn't need adaptive evolution to cycle the upgrades. It doesn't change the current cards, but does open up an alternative play style that uses different models.

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I also think Marcus is quite weak.  My gaming group has tried Marcus with a wide variety of crew compositions, in a wide variety of matchups, with different people playing as Marcus each time.  And he struggles, always.

 

I think the biggest problem is his movement.  He is very inefficient with his use of AP -- maybe he'll spend AP to give out upgrades, maybe he'll be close enough to an un-engaged friendly beast to make it charge ... but he's not doing much on his own.  Which is fine!  I think it's cool that he's a researcher who plays a support role.  But a lot of his best abilities require him to be close to the action, and he doesn't have any good way to get there without walking a bunch, which means he's not doling out upgrades or commanding beasts or whatnot on that turn.

 

I think the best way to make him more powerful and more fun would be to give him a good movement trick.  (I don't think having a 9-SS Cojo use an AP to fling him counts.)  Honestly, I think he's weak enough that he could be given a ridiculously powerful movement trick and he still would be weaker than many other masters.  So I would add the following to the front of the card:

 

The Experiment Failed? (once per turn). When a friendly beast fails an attack action, you may place Marcus in base contact with that beast.

 

As far as movement tricks go, this is absurdly powerful.  It lets the stat-4 jackalope teleport Marcus.  It would let any beast cheat in a low card to teleport Marcus.  But I think Marcus is weak enough that it wouldn't be too strong for him, and I think this would actually feel good for both players.  The opponent has some control over where attacks against them fail, the opponent gets to feel relieved that a model isn't taking damage from an attack, the Marcus player gets to feel happy about bringing him close enough to the action that he'll be able to do his great card-drawing, beast commanding shenanigans.  And having our studious researcher pop up to investigate and iteratively improve his experiments seems to fit the fluff.

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9 hours ago, Adran said:

I'm generally against mass card errataing, so I would probably look more along the line of introducing a new model with actions along the line of Myrandas Primal flame with flames of change trigger. Something like a lab assistant that is a primary support model, but also has triggers to discard Upgrades off chimera/beasts to give them other effects, the obvious one would be to discard an upgrade and have them take an action, allowing you to build a crew that doesn't need adaptive evolution to cycle the upgrades. It doesn't change the current cards, but does open up an alternative play style that uses different models.

AE or adding abilities to beasts could be a way, but It's true mass errating isn't common outside a beta (and this also apply to my suggestion in the other thread... I'll have to keep this in mind). However I don't like the idea of another support model for the crew, Myranda is in 99% of the crews and are she plus the master are 2 supports; the last thing this crews needs is another support model reducing the SS avaliable to beasts. An errata in Marcus and Myranda aimed to solve the keywords problems is probably the best way. And he doesn't have that much room in the crew for another model tbh.

In fact this is one of the things I don't like of the design of this keyword, there are a lot of good choices outclased by a few optimal choices needed for the crew to work (in ARC, NVB Marcus has more variety, but works way worse): after picking (in ARC) Myranda, Cojo, saber(s) and maybe Paul/Miners; there isn't that much room to other models. But Marcus struggle without these, Myranda support and aura is needed, Cojo is the only beast able to attack more than once when commanded by Marcus, has outstanding synergy with Charges (Horns) and is the only model in the crew able to get a good stack of Focused (plus toss and marker removal); and Sabers are too good to pass with SS cache. 

5 hours ago, jovialevil said:

The Experiment Failed? (once per turn). When a friendly beast fails an attack action, you may place Marcus in base contact with that beast.

I have mixed feelings about this... on one hand it's an original idea and it'd be an powerful quirk for him, but on the other it doesn't solve a lot of more important (imho) issues with the crew and that kind of hypermobility doesn't feel right on him; unless I'm missing something from the Lore... is he able to canonically do something like that?

10 hours ago, MrPieChee said:

Would giving all/most chimera models aspect of the wild be too much?

It could be modified to "Aspects (name of mutation)" so each model in the keyword can attach a specific mutation.

Also, if adaptive evolution was moved to the upgrade cards, then that would make space for another ability: "Shed Skin: model may discard an attached mutation upgrade to end one condition".

mmm... I kind of like this, however Adran mass errating point stands here; it's unlikely lots of models get errated and that would let those models get 2 mutations in turn 1 (first do that, then use chimerancy); which is an akward turn 1 (most models will walk, concentrate, bonus to be in range of Marcus Chimerancy and bonus action) and it incentives even less using cheap beasts, but on the other hand having a few models with 2 mutations in turn 1 could be one of the boost the keyword needs... not a bad idea

I could see something in Marcus giving free mutations at the start of the game to all beasts (or minions beasts or beasts cheaper than X... you get the idea) or Chimerancy getting a built in Mask trigger plus an higher stat or something like that and also condition removal in Marcus or Myranda to not have to errata every beast. Aside for being more convinient, I think the mutation theme should still be linked to the master imho.

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12 hours ago, Ogid said:

 

I have mixed feelings about this... on one hand it's an original idea and it'd be an powerful quirk for him, but on the other it doesn't solve a lot of more important (imho) issues with the crew and that kind of hypermobility doesn't feel right on him; unless I'm missing something from the Lore... is he able to canonically do something like that?

I'm not sure about the lore, but in the first 2 editions of the game Marcus was probably the fastest master, largely on him being able to gain extra movement by taking on animal aspects himself. But then he wasn't able to alter other animals in the way he can now. 

I used him to melee attack models in the enemy deployment zone on turn 1 on more than  one occasion as it was easy to get him able to move 8" per action. 

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3 hours ago, Adran said:

I'm not sure about the lore, but in the first 2 editions of the game Marcus was probably the fastest master, largely on him being able to gain extra movement by taking on animal aspects himself. But then he wasn't able to alter other animals in the way he can now. 

I used him to melee attack models in the enemy deployment zone on turn 1 on more than  one occasion as it was easy to get him able to move 8" per action.

This seems fitting for him, but there is a difference (in my eyes) between being fast and being able to teleport all over the place; the first feels superhuman, the second is more like a mage's shenanigan... But an ALT master (different Title) with that concept (Marcus taking an active role or even being able to shapeshift) would be cool. BTW, is there any web where the first/second editions cards are uploaded? I'm curious about how the master where.

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These days with so much talking about Marcus and him being one of my fav masters, I've been having a few extra ideas for him... so here we go again XD:

15 hours ago, Ogid said:

In fact this is one of the things I don't like of the design of this keyword, there are a lot of good choices outclased by a few optimal choices needed for the crew to work (in ARC, NVB Marcus has more variety, but works way worse): after picking (in ARC) Myranda, Cojo, saber(s) and maybe Paul/Miners; there isn't that much room to other models. But Marcus struggle without these, Myranda support and aura is needed, Cojo is the only beast able to attack more than once when commanded by Marcus, has outstanding synergy with Charges (Horns) and is the only model in the crew able to get a good stack of Focused (plus toss and marker removal); and Sabers are too good to pass with SS cache.

Expanding the above quote a bit... I were thinking about the "must pick" models in the keyword and how to solve the huge difference between ARC and NVB... Picking the henchman most of the time isn't something that different to other keywords so that's kind of fine; but the other ones really make Marcus a one trick list guy way less adaptable that he should be and leave a lot of cool models on the shelves.

Aside for some of the ideas above, making Chimera and beast models able to pick upgrades from both factions seems easy, doable and one of the cleanest way to give both sides of the crew a good starting point to balance. There is few room for unbalanced things as most of models are already able to play with those upgrades (opening out of faction upgrades to OOK/Versatiles is the one thing that could create problems) and this opens extra options in both factions that could make the master unique at something. For example, ARC could get 2bAncient Pact lists with the sweet +2 initiative or play with Cojo/Initiates with IR and NVB would get a way to attach SS cache to have a more stable crew when needed or the access to a concealing aura with the Scorpious. It'd be an ability like this one:

Quote

Two Worlds: When hiring, chimera and beast models may purchase upgrades from all factions this model belongs.

There are more things that I'd consider changing on him (like easier upgrades or him being able to offer some support to non-beasts and some condition removal), but the upgrade one would be the top priority for me for how many things it solves at once.

 

Then the 2 must have models; I know there are players (and good ones) fine with playing the same list over and over, that's perfect. However playing the same list because it's the way you like to play and having to play kind of the same list because it's the only one meta solution it's a very different thing. I heavily dislike that, especially because I'm the kind of player that very rarely play the same list twice and like to pick niche models when they fit; also one of the things that I like the most about Malifaux is building the crew after having a lot of information about the game, objetives, enemy faction and master (and that's also one of the things that I liked more about Marcus, how versatile he seemed to be). All that concept of "Marcus works well because X lists works, but if you pick somehting else or a different faction it crumbles" is something worth looking into imo, especially in a master with so many options and so very little viable lists. I'd be definitely in favor of doing something with the models creating those bottlenecks:

The sabertooth could lose Onslaguht in favor of another ofensive mask trigger (Swift action, puncing strike...). This nerf will hurt him, but it'd be healthy for the list diversity and may be compensated with buffs in other parts of the keyword. This change would still make Sabertooths a fast hard hitting model, but without being able to dish 4-5 min 3 damage attacks versus the same model, some with:+flip and automatic triggers; generating more SS while doing so. This is one of the few models able to be very dangerous without an ofensive mutation (Claws/Horns), which make other models unable to compete with him when defensive mutations and SS cache enter in play; especially also considering his mobility.

Cojo is a model that make into most lists and it's hard not to pick him. Focus stacking is very powerful (and helps with his hungry hand), toss and AoE scheme marker removal are great utility tools; and with the 6'' range in call of the wild and most models only being able to charge once (plus Focused), the difference in hitting power between him and the rest of the models is too big. Nerfing this one without changing him too much isn't easy so the perfect solution would be one probably not very viable at this point as it'd mess with Marcus boxes but I really don't see another way... making him his totem and leave the Jackalope as an ARC model. This would be a good buff for Marcus and is also a way to solve the fact that Cojo is going to be in all of his lists without nerfing him to the ground; also with a beast as good as Cojo already in the crew that Marcus may command, there are more room for OOK/Versatile picks or extra support versus conditions for example.

A more viable way to indirectly making Cojo his totem without forcing players to buy Cojo's box would be make Marcus have no totem (so Jackalope would become an ARC enforcer losing the totem characteristic) and giving him an ability able to freely pick it (which adds to the adaptative theme of Marcus), something like this:

Quote

"Follow me brother: While hiring, name a non-henchman chimera beast or a beast in the declared faction, with a cost of 10 or less. One copy of that model gains the "Totem (Marcus)" characteristic and the declared faction afiliation until the end of the game. If this model is this crew's leader, this crew gains a number of additional points for hiring equal to the difference between 10 and the cost of the named model."

My 2 cents.

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Really interessant for me to read this topic.

I love to play marcus, ARC as NVB.

And i'm a bit surprise about COJO : i love the model but i find him a bit weak for a 10SS model. I have to admit i never use his bonus action to mass stack focus so, yeah, i conclue i played him bad. But i still asking myself : does blessed of december could be a good alternative to cojo ? Like cojo, he has a push on his melee attack so he can't charge multiple time thanks to marcus and i find him tankier thanks to hard to wound (and he has leap).

On the other hand, i love to play scorpius, but i don't hear a lot about him. Maybe only cause it's a more situational model.

I also like a lot (maybe even prefer) playing NVB marcus cause :

- more entry for the list (yeah i'm not optimization focus)

- i don't like to be SS cache dependant. I find this upgrade a bit painful cause some model are bad without but must have with (but it's another problem).

- the gameplay is really different and less focus on rush and kill (personnal feeling).

I have to precise it's the only NVB master i play so again, nothing to see with optimization.

This is just some thought from a regular player but not a really great one 😄 And anyway, i really enjoy reading everybody.

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I think wanting to be able to use faction upgrades from both factions just highlights the problem more. If models can't function without a specific faction upgrade, then theres something wrong with those models. If a crew can't function without a specific model with a specific faction upgrade then the whole keyword has a problem.

Having an upto 10ss totem on a 15ss master seems incredibly OP to me. Ridiculously so. The idea that a beast master can have one of many beasts as a totem is pretty cool though. (Although thematically, putting mutations on a jackalope is morphing it into other beasts).

I think looking for the smallest changes possible to make greater variations in crew setups viable is probably the most likely way to see change. But, if there is a better solution which requires a change to ever Chimera card, I've got no problem with that.

I really like the suggestion above of a deployment aura for upgrades - give an upgrade to every beast or chimera within 8" of Marcus when deployed. That's a single card to errata.

Possibly adding an extra mutation upgrade or two might work - Regeneration? Terrifying?

Still a big fan of moving AE to the upgrades and adding condition removal. Adding aspects of the wild to chimera models might see them get some OOK use. Mutation upgrades could drop to one each unless Marcus in the leader to balance that. And/or they could become plentiful 3 when Marcus leads...

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7 hours ago, MrPieChee said:

I think wanting to be able to use faction upgrades from both factions just highlights the problem more. If models can't function without a specific faction upgrade, then theres something wrong with those models. If a crew can't function without a specific model with a specific faction upgrade then the whole keyword has a problem

Different crews value upgrades differently, it's ok when a crew is very good with an upgrade. Chimera is a keyword where minions and enforcers are the ones doing the heavy lifting (master and henchman are 2 supports) and SS cache alone enable those models. The :+flip+ Suit or even :+flip:+flip the models can get for 1 SS solve a lot of problems for them and the keyword (Distracted, Manipulative/SC making them useless, hungry hand...); also being able to throw the cache at a model with 2 or 3 upgrades make all those upgrades get much more value than if the model can get killed easily. Also Sabertooths with or without that upgrade are 2 totally different models.

A keyword is balanced taking in count everything in the faction, but as in this case ARC upgrades make such a big diffence; the NVB part is in a bad spot. If Marcus would get balanced for NVB, it would be OP in ARC. That's why in this case I think both parts getting all the upgrades it's an important step to be able to balance both sides of the crew.

7 hours ago, MrPieChee said:

Having an upto 10ss totem on a 15ss master seems incredibly OP to me. Ridiculously so. The idea that a beast master can have one of many beasts as a totem is pretty cool though. (Although thematically, putting mutations on a jackalope is morphing it into other beasts).

You might be right... 10SS is outstanding, but there are Masters with totems as good as Lord Chompy bits, Hungering Darkness or Banasuva (it's true some of those are cheaper masters, but they can also summon; so it kinda balances out). Marcus getting a powerful totem would be a way to try to put them on the curve and avoid the must pick problem at the same time (and also those 2-3SS over the other best totems would make up for the fact he expend a lot of resources attaching mutations), plus he got a big nerf in GG1 with the no triggers in charges from triggers ruling. I also like more the idea of the wildcard totem instead of the fixed one, it fits him.

But putting that much power into the totem would mean he getting less to no buffs. There are multiple ways to try balance the keyword, this could be one...

 

7 hours ago, grundil said:

And i'm a bit surprise about COJO : i love the model but i find him a bit weak for a 10SS model. I have to admit i never use his bonus action to mass stack focus so, yeah, i conclue i played him bad. But i still asking myself : does blessed of december could be a good alternative to cojo ? Like cojo, he has a push on his melee attack so he can't charge multiple time thanks to marcus and i find him tankier thanks to hard to wound (and he has leap).

Cojo per se isn't that good for 10SS; but when he works in tandem with Marcus, he really stands out. I attach Wings or Camo in turn 1 (wings usually) and Horns in turn 2. The bread and butter Marcus combo with him is: Activate Marcus, use 2-3 AP making Cojo charge, then Accomplice into him and use another 2 charges. That's 5 possible attacks that the other player cannot really easily react, more if a back to back activation at the end/start of a turn can be pulled off.

With Horns every one of those will have :+flipto damage, :+flip:+flip using also Focused. There is no other beast able to do that. For example the Blessed is tanky and more mobile than him, but she can only charge once per turn (even if she disengage the enemy, she doesn't have Frenzied Charge), so she could only get 3 attacks doing the Accomplice trick (and one of them not being a charge), also she can't stack Focused as Cojo can. The Blessed is very good to go on her own and H2W is very good, but for staying near and getting commanded by Marcus, the monkey is the nº1.

Stacking Focused is quite good, it requires a bit of set up but it's not hard. For example in NVB with a wisp and a doll (or 2 Wisps) it's easy to get 4 scheme markers in range in turn 1.

7 hours ago, grundil said:

On the other hand, i love to play scorpius, but i don't hear a lot about him. Maybe only cause it's a more situational model.

The scorpious is good, especially in NVB as they have more models playing with poison and he doesn't rely in Sabertooths in purple so he has more room for other models; but Marcus it's not a very popular NVB master and doesn't get that much atention, in this forum at least.

7 hours ago, grundil said:

This is just some thought from a regular player but not a really great one 😄 And anyway, i really enjoy reading everybody.

Well reasoned comments are always welcome, it's interesting to hear about how others play him :). I'm glad to hear you are enjoying all this rambling XD.

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12 hours ago, HomelessOne said:

Kind of sad Plaag stopped popping into Arcanist threads at random to spit fire into the mic and then leave.

To be honest I was legitimately hoping @Plaag would have chimed in to tell me my idea was bad and drop some crazy perfect work around idea I’ve never thought of!

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22 hours ago, MrPieChee said:

Still a big fan of moving AE to the upgrades and adding condition removal.

While I don't necessarily think AE needs to go on the Upgrade, I definitely think that at the very least, all Chimera models should have some way of discarding them, if not by Adaptive Evolution, then some other manner.

I was looking at making a crew to go up against McCabe next time I have the opportunity (or if I know an opponent has mild ophidiohobia*), with Scorpius, 2-3 Razorspines and the one specific Acolyte, and then realized any Upgrades I put on the Rattlers, I couldn't remove, short of killing them off. That's just bad for my options.

* I have one friend who's arachnophobic, and fully intend to put three Jorogumo on the table against him.

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2 hours ago, Peturd said:

To be honest I was legitimately hoping @Plaag would have chimed in to tell me my idea was bad and drop some crazy perfect work around idea I’ve never thought of!

I have to confess his total lack of finesse is kind of amusing to me, but it's true he gives good advice if you can read between lines. He already gave his opinion about some models of the crew in this other thread, a quick recap:

  • Cojo all the way, stacking Focused like there is no tomorrow using at least 1 union miner; he said Focused+7 in turn 1.
    • My guess is 1 model with ambush/creep along dropping 2 markers (or maybe 2 models interacting and walking), then 2 False claims (Union Miner), and Cojo concentrating once.
    • For NVB players, there is no False claim, but there are cheaper models with creep along/ambush (dolls/wisps), in purple Focused+5 is doable in turn 1 (more than that it's possible, but including other models like BBS, Cyclop or Aeslin; which it's not for every game).
  • Paul also in the crew to counter anti-charge tech.
  • He didn't say Sabertooth, Blessed, Myranda and Miners are bad when I mentioned it; so at least he doesn't dislike these.
  • Initiates, Vogel, Rattler bad
2 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

While I don't necessarily think AE needs to go on the Upgrade, I definitely think that at the very least, all Chimera models should have some way of discarding them, if not by Adaptive Evolution, then some other manner.

I've always been curious about this because I've seen other players also wanting it. However I have not enough AP to keep cicling mutations and get things done; but maybe I'm missing something.

When I pick a Marcus crew I have in mind the mutation allocation I want in turns 1 and 2 depending on the role for the game (also most models are better with some mutations, and I try not to pick too many models that want 1 particular mutation). After turn 2 I've more success focusing in using AP to do stuff on the board than in keep cicling mutations. Also I initially started playing more greedy list that aimed to get 3-4 models with 2 mutations (even 3 mutations using Myranda as a non-support) in turn 2; but I dumped these for list that use 1 AP in turn 2 to attach mutations and have 2 Marcus AP to get things done after noticing how badly Marcus scale compared with other Masters (I play NVB Marcus tho). The bigger problem I had is wanting to attach 1 mutation to Marcus/Myranda that is in 2 other models and that's rare.

After turn 2, I mainly use chimerancy and AE for healing or more rarely if I desesperately need a trigger/ :+flip; but I don't want to switch mutations between models. After discarding that Mutation, Marcus will attach the same mutation to that model when AP allows it. Not having that choice with most model isn't that problematic for me because attaching mutations is expensive, that ability is also a disadvantage versus obey models and I tend to priorice AP for commands.

For example, if Cojo is hurt, I'll use the last AP to get rid of Horns to get Tear off a bite (In Cojo's activation, since GG1 he cannot heal with the trigger during Marcus activation), then I'll attach it again during Marcus activation, hopefully getting/stoning/cheating a mend trigger.

But as said above maybe there are other playstiles that cicle mutations more. How many AP do you usually use per game cicling AP? Doing what? In which scenarios do you want to switch mutations between models?

2 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

I was looking at making a crew to go up against McCabe next time I have the opportunity (or if I know an opponent has mild ophidiohobia*), with Scorpius, 2-3 Razorspines and the one specific Acolyte, and then realized any Upgrades I put on the Rattlers, I couldn't remove, short of killing them off. That's just bad for my options.

* I have one friend who's arachnophobic, and fully intend to put three Jorogumo on the table against him.

Next level mind games lol.

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Re the mutations, it's less about switching them on the Rattlers, as it is about opening them up for others. Basic plan was to feathered wings (Quetzalcoatl strikes back) the snakes, then strip them off once they're in position T1 as they've got more than enough movement at that point. But no can do.

If there's an issue with Obeys, just add a "During this model's activation", and that problem gets solved.

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

Next level mind games lol.

Nah, I'm just a bit of a dick. :)

But mostly against a McCabe player, just so I can make corny Raiders jokes.

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22 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

Re the mutations, it's less about switching them on the Rattlers, as it is about opening them up for others. Basic plan was to feathered wings (Quetzalcoatl strikes back) the snakes, then strip them off once they're in position T1 as they've got more than enough movement at that point. But no can do.

Quetzalcoatl lol, thematic list are fun.

But trying to be more effective I'm not sure if that kind of shenanigans would be worth it even if the model would have an ability to discard the mutation... that's 1 Master AP just to give a bit of extra mobility to a model with already great mobility instead of the mutations they need to perform well. I'll elaborate:

Rattlers works well with Plates and maybe with Claws/Camo as a second mutation. I haven't played with more than 1 Rattler in a crew, but what I did was throwing the Rattler in b2b with enemies that cannot disengage easily and activate it ASAP the next turn to trigger Hunker Down. That leaves a df 6 Armor+1 Shielded+2 model with Constriction and Wicked. Using well constriction and wicked the Rattler have a good chance to keep engaging that model or heal.

Giving up that defense (plus the ability to put Adversary in a model that the player wants to activate early or extra defense versus models non-engaged with the target) to get wings isn't worth it imo. Especially because the Rattler is a model that wants to be engaged and butterfly jump is not that useful in that scenario; also the Rattler has enough mobility to reach any model it wants.

The ability to cicle mutations would be cool and fun, but it's not a big problem for the keyword imho.

22 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

If there's an issue with Obeys, just add a "During this model's activation", and that problem gets solved.

I'd rather the friendly-controlled wording; that change would be the last nail in the coffin to Marcus obey mechanic. Before GG1 Marcus (and Myranda, and Vogel) could make beast charge and do some tricks with their mutations (like discarding a defensive mutation to heal and then attach it after; now that's not posible without exposing the model). I still have some hope that at least for Marcus his ability get reworded to allow it again.

But that would require errata a lot of cards which isn't likely; I'm fine with that as a weakness of the keyword if other of the above points are solved.

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  • 3 months later...

After a few games with Marcus I wish for:

1. Expand Primal Domain to 12"... this would lead to more carddraw and stabilize marcus in general as well as boost the "swap upgrades kind of play"

2. Rework call of the Wilds :ramtrigger so the chosen beast may declare triggers in the following :ToS-Melee:.  this would be pre-GG1 state.

 

even though I would love to see some NVB Marcus boost, these 2 are what I think Marcus was intended to be like...

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16 hours ago, extremor said:

 

2. Rework call of the Wilds :ramtrigger so the chosen beast may declare triggers in the following :ToS-Melee:.  this would be pre-GG1 state.

If Marcus was intended to do this, you'd have thought the faq would have gone that way, since this is probably the action most effected by that change. 

 

Edit- the change was as errata not an FAQ. 

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