Lord Cooper (Apex Keyword) Discussion

[Maniacal_cackle]

Someone posted Apex with the Micro Art Studio bases, turned out incredibly well:

https://old.reddit.com/r/Malifaux/comments/lco2ri/lord_cooper_and_his_hunting_party/

[vinnyt16]

oh hey that's me! Thanks so much! I actually just started a project blog here: 

where I'll be posting more of my crews as well as some more pictures of the ones I already have. Happy to take closer pics of any of the Apex models or answer any questions about how I painted em. I'm especially proud of the Maasai beads on the Crysis Corps- those were pretty fun to do and a neat way to add some character.  

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, vinnyt16 said:

oh hey that's me! Thanks so much! I actually just started a project blog here: 

where I'll be posting more of my crews as well as some more pictures of the ones I already have. Happy to take closer pics of any of the Apex models or answer any questions about how I painted em. I'm especially proud of the Maasai beads on the Crysis Corps- those were pretty fun to do and a neat way to add some character.  

Awesome stuff

@HomelessOne this might interest you, I think you were interested in these bases.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@HomelessOne, tagging didn't work on my phone xD

[HomelessOne]

Looks real good to me. I've actually been in the process of assembling mine; they've been briefly tabled while I get new releases for a different game together. Heh.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, HomelessOne said:

Looks real good to me. I've actually been in the process of assembling mine; they've been briefly tabled while I get new releases for a different game together. Heh.

That's okay. Everyone needs time with other games to be reminded how much better Malifaux is.

[vinnyt16]

Just played my first actual game of Malifaux against my dad at 30 soul stones. McCabe (him) vs lord Cooper (me). We are both enormous noobs so probably messed up a bunch but it was a great time nonetheless!
I took Cooper, runaways, Artemis, Ullr, model 9, and a vatagi. He took McCabe, Luna, desper, sidhir, and the Dawn serpent. 

We played standard deployment with corrupted idols. I took outflank and hold up their forces, he took take prisoner and claim jumps 

Game ended in a 3-3 tie! Big moments were Cooper being on a positive damage flip against McCabe and flipping a black joker 😡 and the dawn serpent just burninating half my crew constantly. That thing is crazy and Cooper actually seems to bubble more than I thought (ullr negative flip and vatagi draw a card ability all require 2” range”. 

Takeaways: Cooper is a stone cold baller with the predatory instincts and amount of adversary the crew hands out. Min 3 per shot is spooky with positive flips everywhere. His tomes trigger (draw 2 discard 1) is absolutely amazing since there’s not a lot of draw options for the crew. 

The runaways are super fun and annoying for your opponent. One almost killed Luna which was hilarious. 

Model 9 doesn’t seem worth the 9 stones but he was slow and staggered most of the games. His knife throw is cool though- stat 7 is fantastic. Seems like him or Artemis are necessary but probably not both.

Ullr is absolutely fantastic to bodyguard Cooper and give him focus/prevent him getting gooned out. 

Artemis is very quick which is nice but is basically a less good, cheaper model 9. 

I like the vatagi. They give you card draw, the gun isn’t horrible, and making traps is fun. Predatory instinct to help make the trap off a revolver shot which then lets Cooper blast someone is just delightful. The bubble nature of them is rough though and they die pretty quick.

Very excited to try out the crysis corps and probably swap out Artemis for one of them to see how that goes. McCabe is brutal though. Damn quick and just cuts a swath through everything. Especially when you black joker your Cooper shot...

[vinnyt16]

Played another 30SS game with Cooper vs McCabe with me switching out Artemis for a Crysis Corps. This one ended up a 3-2 win for Cooper that came down to the wire. 

My crew: Cooper, 3 runaways, Ullr, Model 9, Vatagi, Crysis Corps

His crew: McCabe, Luna, Sidhir, Dawn Serpent, Yasunori

Takeaways from the game:

Cooper is a beast at range. He killed Sidhir in 3 shots and took a huge bite out of the Dawn Serpent. However, a juiced up McCabe with the sword will almost immediately annihilate him and it's extremely hard to hide from him in a smaller game. Really nothing I could have done to stop his death which was mildly annoying but without the dino, apex really struggles to compete in melee. Cooper is pretty fragile with only armor 1 and 11 wounds. Also WP of 5 means that terrifying is gonna be a huge issue for this crew.

Model 9 is absolutely fantastic. He charges everywhere throwing knives like crazy. I tended to use the predatory instinct for the first shot to fish for the avalanche of blades trigger which resulted in this insane sequence of events. Charge 5" and throw at McCabe with predatory instinct, hits avalanche of blades trigger and does 1 damage. Avalanche resolves and causes severe damage (4!), placing me in contact with him, I then hit McCabe with the blades for moderate (4!) damage which killed him. I did get fairly lucky with the flips, but considering that this crew hands out adversary like candy, I don't find it that unlikely at all. Just super impressed with the mobility and utility of the gunslinger comboed with mobile warrior and blade rush.

Runaways remain pretty ok, but I find they tend to just give out adversary rather than their other (better) effects. Still trying to figure out when to activate them. 

Ullr is a good boy who tries his best but really doesn't provide any melee utility which leads to the awkward situation where he's there to protect cooper from melee but really can't damage anything and gets beaten down quickly by any melee beater. 

Vatagi remains fragile but necessary for card draw. Pit traps are still cool but pretty unreliable. Another model that doesn't want to be in melee and has no way to mitigate damage. 

Finally, the Crysis corps. I really wanted to like this guy but I don't. 14" gun is cool except it's stat 5 and about as long range as the vatagi. Min 2 damage with a possible crit strike is ok but stat 5 is just such a huge downside. More importantly, it's a very stationary model in a crew that already tends to be a bit too much of a gunline. Absolutely no melee whatsoever and paper thin defense of 4 means he gets immediately smashed by most things. His triggers are also kind of useless besides crit strike. Staggered is ok but situational and adversary is not really a problem for this crew to get on people. Patient strike is weird but maybe ok in the right situation, except that stat of 5 with a min 2 damage means that there's no real reason to respect it and it's very easily avoided. Beneath the leaves is interesting but if anyone is close enough to him for it to matter, he's in huge trouble. Honestly I don't see a good place for him in this crew. I'd rather have another vatagi for card draw and some board control (traps). Even his scheme removal is underwhelming in a crew where model 9 and artemis exist. 

Going forward I'm hoping to try a 50SS game in the next week or so with the Rex (proxied  ). Artemis is definitely coming back too since he's one of the only melee models in the crew. 

This is definitely one of the weaker Explorer keywords. Cooper is your main damage engine but is very stationary and folds very quickly to any sort of pressure. If he's not shooting twice then you are in some serious trouble, which greatly limits his flexibility. The crew also struggles greatly with hand mechanics. A bad control hand kind of dooms you

But I still love Apex and will keep trying to find ways to make them work! 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

Have you had trouble with the opponent Obeying Malisaurus to Whip his tail into Territorial and have a 10SS model just sit there? Obey (and similar effects) are somewhat common and always useful and it seems like a huge weakness and a pretty easy counterpick to make.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Have you had trouble with the opponent Obeying Malisaurus to Whip his tail into Territorial and have a 10SS model just sit there? Obey (and similar effects) are somewhat common and always useful and it seems like a huge weakness and a pretty easy counterpick to make.

Hahaha, omg, what a terrible weakness to have!

I love the Rex, that is so disappointing but hilarious.

[hydranixx]

I've played Apex now for 4 games, against 4 different factions, with 3 big wins and one narrow loss to Reva+Kirai+Toshiro nonsense.

My crews have been:
Cooper
3 Runaways
Ullr
Artemis
1 Hopeful Prospect
1 Harpooner
0-2 Vatagi Huntsmen (sometimes with Treasure Map, which is especially useful in Corrupted Leylines)
1-2 Crypsis Corps (sometimes with Hidden Agenda)
0-1 Model 9
0-1 Tannenbaum
Cache: I've tried 1, 4, 6 and 8 ss. I think ~6ss is ideal

Always Bring: Harpooner, Ullr
My harpooner has been my MVP in every single game. The Harpooner is a model that always provides you with options; they have multiple ways to rescue Cooper from melee, they can make great use of low  with Reconfigure, they can reposition markers, and hand out conditions. I think they're better in Apex, rather than in EVS, since they don't have to compete with other  Reconfigure models here. Their big weakness is their awful WP 4 - you might reconsider taking this model if your opponent is likely to bring a few Terrifying models.

Ullr is an absolute toolbox, whether he's applying Staggered to key targets, rescuing Cooper, or providing him with free movement and Focus, or helping out on a flank with By Your Side. He can control or tarpit enemies in melee efficiently, but the real gem of this model is his  trigger in melee to give Cooper a free shot once per activation. If you can sneak this trigger in a couple times over the course of the game, and keep Cooper free of melee engagement, he'll probably shoot the enemy off the board by himself.

Combos:
- Crypsis Corps' Beneath The Leaves aura can extend the range of your Pit Traps.
- Harpooners & Tannenbaum can pull/push Pit Traps into enemies, reposition Strike Markers, or pull/push enemies into either.
- Rex handing out free  to for Ullr's free-Cooper-shot trigger, or Model 9's Execution trigger.

General musings:
I think Model 9 and Tannenbaum are both viable in Apex, but they do very specific things and have very pronounced weaknesses. If your opponent has a few ways to Ignore Armour, Model 9 folds like a deck of cards. Tannenbaum has almost endless utility and can swing a game on his own, but he has a lot of TNs, relatively low range and speed, and he can't benefit from a lot of Crew synergies. 

[Sagrit]

On 2/14/2021 at 11:46 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Have you had trouble with the opponent Obeying Malisaurus to Whip his tail into Territorial and have a 10SS model just sit there? Obey (and similar effects) are somewhat common and always useful and it seems like a huge weakness and a pretty easy counterpick to make.

I don't think it's much of a trouble since Territorial say : ... it cannot be moved or Buried.

Which means, thatyou can't move him with different puch/move effects of other models, but Malisaurus still can walk and charge during his own activation.

[Math Mathonwy]

2 hours ago, Sagrit said:

I don't think it's much of a trouble since Territorial say : ... it cannot be moved or Buried.

Which means, thatyou can't move him with different puch/move effects of other models, but Malisaurus still can walk and charge during his own activation.

"it cannot be moved or Buried."

Hmmm... I took it to mean that it cannot move itself, either, but now I'm not sure.

Edit: So I guess the argument is whether there is a difference between "it cannot be moved" and (a theoretical) "it cannot move or be moved" 

[NoisyAssassin]

I interpreted it as not being able to move itself, but there's definitely room for ambiguity there.

[touchdown]

in other cases they specific other models may not move this model. May not be moved or buried sounds very concrete, doesn't matter what the source is.

[Sagrit]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Edit: So I guess the argument is whether there is a difference between "it cannot be moved" and (a theoretical) "it cannot move or be moved" 

Yep, that's what I'm talking about. I explain my point of view:

"Be moved" means being an object of other's action that can move. Other way would be "cannot move" which would mean that can move at all. We have examples of wording, when model move herself:

• Trample: This model can move through other models.
• Towering Figure: ... and can move through other models.
• Incorporeal / Ghost of Malifaux: This model can move through other models and vice versa.
• e.t.c.

But in this case it's specified "be moved"

P.S. Found a fun example  

 

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Sagrit said:

I don't think it's much of a trouble since Territorial say : ... it cannot be moved or Buried.

Which means, thatyou can't move him with different puch/move effects of other models, but Malisaurus still can walk and charge during his own activation.

Any time something changes location or is affected by a movement effect, it is considered to have
moved (even if it moved 0"). Page 14

Walk
This model moves up to its Movement (Mv) in inches. This move cannot be used to leave an enemy model’s
engagement range. Page 22

And just for completeness a movement effect fromn a different model 

Lure 

Move the target its Mv toward this model.

I can't see anything that suggests the difference between moves and be moved is anything other than being grammatically correct. 

 

 

[Sagrit]

Lure moves the target, so Lure wording is correct. When your model is affected by enemy Lure - it would be moved  If ability says that it can't be moved - Lure won't work.

If your model takes Walk action during it's activation - it moves. If ability says it can't be moved, i see no reason why it can't move itself. Correct wording to prevent it, as i see it, would be "can't move" which is more general. So for Territorial: "...and it cannot move or be Buried". But we have what we have  

 

Besides that' there are 2 more examples about "be moved" and in both cases it's about being affected by other models effects:

• Staggered: ...and cannot be moved by effects of other friendly models.
• Planted Roots: This model cannot be moved by enemy effects..

So again, it makes me think that there is difference between "move" and "be moved". And you are correct, it's gramatically correct as well  

[Adran]

But when a model takes a walk action it would be moved ( by itself) as well if you speak in the same tense

When a model is affect by lure it moves. 

The two examples don't help as far as I can see. They both specify that the walk/ charge action wouldn't effect them, either because it's not from another model or from an enemy model, so the common language doesn't show us that is what it means. 

[Sagrit]

When a model takes a Walk action it moves, it's not moved by itself. When a model is affected by Lure - it's moved by model with Lure. And model with Lure moves the target  

I mean we can continue that for a long time, really, but I'm sure you got my point:

• Move yourself with you own will - "move"
• Forced to move by others - "be moved"

I'm not saying that everyone have to agree though. Would love to see some arguments since it's only one we have before next FAQ (I hope)

[farmoar]

22 hours ago, Sagrit said:

When a model takes a Walk action it moves, it's not moved by itself. When a model is affected by Lure - it's moved by model with Lure. And model with Lure moves the target  

I mean we can continue that for a long time, really, but I'm sure you got my point:

• Move yourself with you own will - "move"
• Forced to move by others - "be moved"

I'm not saying that everyone have to agree though. Would love to see some arguments since it's only one we have before next FAQ (I hope)

this is the kind of thing that Wyrd needs to have "Rules Lawyer" on payroll. Obviously they meant it one way or the other, so just have an official account that says "this rule works like this", and be done with it until the next Errata. there is no need to wait a year to find out the game works a certain way, and have all the players playing it incorrectly in the meantime.

and then whent he Errats and FAQ come out, it gets addressed there as well. but dont hoard all of these answers for the FAQ; youll just end up upsetting your playerbase

[Math Mathonwy]

30 minutes ago, farmoar said:

this is the kind of thing that Wyrd needs to have "Rules Lawyer" on payroll. Obviously they meant it one way or the other, so just have an official account that says "this rule works like this", and be done with it until the next Errata. there is no need to wait a year to find out the game works a certain way, and have all the players playing it incorrectly in the meantime.

and then whent he Errats and FAQ come out, it gets addressed there as well. but dont hoard all of these answers for the FAQ; youll just end up upsetting your playerbase

They used to have those "official rules lawyers" but decided that it's better that people don't have official answers before eventual FAQs rather than them having to comb the rules forums for official answers.

[Maniacal_cackle]

A bit off topic, but what I'd like to see for 4th edition is a more structured rules set (like MTG), so it is easier to interpret things.

Although I guess I should be careful of what I wish for. Structured rule sets limit design space.

[Whut]

On 2/14/2021 at 4:46 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Have you had trouble with the opponent Obeying Malisaurus to Whip his tail into Territorial and have a 10SS model just sit there? Obey (and similar effects) are somewhat common and always useful and it seems like a huge weakness and a pretty easy counterpick to make.

Wow... I didn't think of this. That sucks.

On 2/13/2021 at 10:24 PM, vinnyt16 said:

Finally, the Crysis corps. I really wanted to like this guy but I don't. 14" gun is cool except it's stat 5 and about as long range as the vatagi. Min 2 damage with a possible crit strike is ok but stat 5 is just such a huge downside. More importantly, it's a very stationary model in a crew that already tends to be a bit too much of a gunline. Absolutely no melee whatsoever and paper thin defense of 4 means he gets immediately smashed by most things. His triggers are also kind of useless besides crit strike. Staggered is ok but situational and adversary is not really a problem for this crew to get on people. Patient strike is weird but maybe ok in the right situation, except that stat of 5 with a min 2 damage means that there's no real reason to respect it and it's very easily avoided. Beneath the leaves is interesting but if anyone is close enough to him for it to matter, he's in huge trouble. Honestly I don't see a good place for him in this crew. I'd rather have another vatagi for card draw and some board control (traps). Even his scheme removal is underwhelming in a crew where model 9 and artemis exist. 

Crypsis Corps are easily in the Top 3 best minions in Explorers. You mentioned you're a new player, so I don't know if you gathered these interactions on your own - read through this and see if it makes you want to give them another try (I hope this doesn't come off as insulting, just trying to help out a newbie):

They have effective min-3 damage against enemies with conditions (Probably Adversary), ignore cover/friendlyfire, and can use Predatory Instinct when attacking OutOfActivation with Patient Strike. They also get a 24" Patient strike by consuming a Focused because it's a gun action.

24" Patient Strike + Pushing an Adversary(Apex) enemy into sight lines gives:

1. double plus to duel / minus to damage with min-3, or
2. straight duel / plus to damage 3/4/5 (and can still ram for another +1)

A model with ANY condition (Injured from Cooper's bomb, Shielded/Focused that they generate themselves, etc)  still gives you #1 with a single plus to the duel rather than double plus. Stat 5 largely doesn't matter, just throw it out and force the opponent to cheat if he's losing (which he will be a majority of the time against a plus flip)

They don't have melee but they don't need it since they easily exit engagement with their Bonus action. They also generate a constant 3" aura of Concealment/Severe as long as they stand near a Forest, or Severe/Hazardous near a Pit Trap. Both of these make it harder to get into melee with them, the former also protects nearby friendly models and the latter damages the enemy just for trying to get near. They can't be targeted from over 6" away either, so they shouldn't be dying.

On 2/14/2021 at 9:02 PM, hydranixx said:

Cache: I've tried 1, 4, 6 and 8 ss. I think ~6ss is ideal

What do you use SS for? I genuinely think the correct Cache for Apex is 0-2. I don't see a good use for them other than damage prevention or getting a Ram on Cooper's attack when needed (I don't take Model 9 who is super SS-hungry)

On 2/14/2021 at 9:02 PM, hydranixx said:

Always Bring: Harpooner, Ullr
My harpooner has been my MVP in every single game. The Harpooner is a model that always provides you with options; they have multiple ways to rescue Cooper from melee, they can make great use of low  with Reconfigure, they can reposition markers, and hand out conditions. I think they're better in Apex, rather than in EVS, since they don't have to compete with other  Reconfigure models here. Their big weakness is their awful WP 4 - you might reconsider taking this model if your opponent is likely to bring a few Terrifying models.

I think Harpooners are awful so I'd like to hear more about this. From my perspective:

They shoot much worse than Crypsis Corps while being similar in mobility, they easily die to 2-3 attacks with their lack of defensive abilities and don't provide support like BeneathTheLeaves does, reel in is garbage compared to what Tannenbaum does, and the dogs already provide decent push effects for keeping Cooper disengaged, not to mention OOK Explorers have tons of movement effects (MrNgaatoro, Damned, Intrepid, WFinnigan, etc) . With Cooper/Crypsis/Vagati why take another mostly-static shooter model when shooting is so saturated and far better options exist for Harpooner's secondary roles?

[vinnyt16]

I'll have to try them again! Didn't notice the 24" patient strike possibility. At 14" it was pretty underwhelming. I guess my other problem (besides being super new) is that I was playing a 30 stone game against an extremely fast McCabe crew who just rushed me immediately.  

Plus I love their models so that alone means they deserve another shot.