Lord Cooper (Apex Keyword) Discussion

[hydranixx]

The other thing to consider is that Vatagi Huntsmen really want a friendly Apex model within 2" to draw a card, and you're spending 9ss on an OOK model so you have fewer options to get value from that ability.

I hire Versatile and/or OOK models with Cooper a fair bit, but I would hesitate to take Vatagi Huntsmen when I do precisely because their Keyword-reliant card draw is often one of the biggest incentives for me to take them in the first place.

[NoisyAssassin]

What OOK models have you been taking?

[hydranixx]

On 4/14/2021 at 1:51 AM, NoisyAssassin said:

What OOK models have you been taking?

To be clear, I only bring in OOK models as tech picks for the board, or for the Scheme & Strat pool and/or as counter picks against specific Masters/Factions; I don't think there are any auto-take OOK picks for Apex. 

Austera and Twigge are very board-dependent, but they can be extremely useful for Apex. The biggest counter I've found to Cooper is simply blocking his LoS, while a soft counter to him is hiding in/generating Concealing - plus he really wants to hog most of your good cards. Herald, Mv6 and Unimpeded coupled with two great  actions lets them either scheme or snipe at key models hiding away from Cooper, while going wherever they need to be and cycling cards if you need better card quality.

Winston Finnegan is often great in Recover Evidence and is hilarious against enemies with innate  on their attacks due to Luck Thief. I've used him to tie up a Rogue Necromancy for half a game, while picking up Evidence Markers and generating Soulstones off Sharp Wit. When I bring him to Apex, I staple Flush with Cash to him and try keep the Runaways near him so he can harvest stones as they die to enemies. Bribery adds a lot of extra durability to him as it technically causes the action to immediately fail, so Winston immediately heals him 2 thanks to Luck Thief. Against some crews, if you can get him in a key position and cover him with auras (say, Concealing from a Crypsis Corps' Beneath The Leaves aura, or Vernon and Welles' Head in the Clouds aura), he becomes untouchable.

And of course, Arcane Reservoir is always welcome.

I have had tremendous success bringing in Archivist against some Outcast crews, since almost half their entire faction has Hard to Kill or Demise, and he can ignore those abilities consistently. He's also a great source of card draw for you or card drain on the opponent, which means he supports Cooper's hand, rather than competing with him for it. Lastly, Ill Omens helps keep initiative closer to even in the early turns where Runaways essentially just give the opponent free Pass Tokens, and give you the edge in Initiative when it comes to the late game.

For example, in last week's Vassal match against Parker Barrows on Symbols of Authority, I brought Archivist in to neutralise The Midnight Stalker that I suspected would be hire - every Outcast will instinctively reach for him in Symbols. He was indeed hired, and the Archivist killed him middle of turn 2, before turning to help clean up the rest of the Bandit crew, which included multiple additional Hard to Kill targets (Mad Dog and the Hodgepodge Emissary). To the best of my knowledge, Ill Omens helped me win every Initiative Flip which let me dictate the pace and direction of each turn.

[Whut]

Hey everybody! I just released my Apex Review - If you're interested, here you are!

(Just know it was recorded pre-GG2)

[hydranixx]

10 hours ago, Whut said:

Hey everybody! I just released my Apex Review - If you're interested, here you are!

(Just know it was recorded pre-GG2)

Nicely done - I agree with most of your ratings, but I definitely don't see Harpooners as 1 star models :L 

[apes-ma]

Cooper experts - I have just picked up the core box, On The Hunt and the Malisaurus Rex. I haven't played since 2e and I plan to play fixed-list for my first ten or so games to a) get used to what the core models of the keyword do and what synergies exist between them, b) get back into playing after a long break (and an edition change!) and c) get familiar with the new strats and schemes. I figure that if the fixed list doesn't work great for a strat then that should help me to work out what I would have wanted there, which will help me when I branch out into more hiring options. So my question - will those three boxes give me enough for a fixed list that is at least OK into most schemes and strats? I was thinking something like Cooper, Runaways, Ullr and Artemis (which feels like the core models), model 9/Malisaurus (not sure which one?) then either 2x crypsis and 1x vatagi, or 1x crypsis and 2x vatagi. And a flush with cash somewhere?

[Corwin]

On 5/14/2021 at 2:32 PM, apes-ma said:

I was thinking something like Cooper, Runaways, Ullr and Artemis (which feels like the core models), model 9/Malisaurus (not sure which one?) then either 2x crypsis and 1x vatagi, or 1x crypsis and 2x vatagi. And a flush with cash somewhere?

I have recently picked up Cooper too, I've played 3 games with using one of everything you get in those boxes (except 3 Runaways)and no upgrades to get a feel of what the different models can do. They are a lot less static then I thought before playing a game. The dogs add a lot of movement tricks and the rex has a good bonus push when you dont need to give things crows. The Runaways are very cool models as I see the things they can pull off. I'm only 3 games in but I'm already seeing the layers this crew can bring. 

[hydranixx]

On 5/15/2021 at 6:32 AM, apes-ma said:

Cooper experts - I have just picked up the core box, On The Hunt and the Malisaurus Rex. I haven't played since 2e and I plan to play fixed-list for my first ten or so games to a) get used to what the core models of the keyword do and what synergies exist between them, b) get back into playing after a long break (and an edition change!) and c) get familiar with the new strats and schemes. I figure that if the fixed list doesn't work great for a strat then that should help me to work out what I would have wanted there, which will help me when I branch out into more hiring options. So my question - will those three boxes give me enough for a fixed list that is at least OK into most schemes and strats? I was thinking something like Cooper, Runaways, Ullr and Artemis (which feels like the core models), model 9/Malisaurus (not sure which one?) then either 2x crypsis and 1x vatagi, or 1x crypsis and 2x vatagi. And a flush with cash somewhere?

I suspect you've already managed to answer these questions yourself by getting in some game time? 😃

If not, then yes Lord Cooper can bring fixed Keyword-heavy lists, and as for the Model 9 or Malisaurus Rex question, just bring both.

Apex does well in a vacuum since you'll have plenty of damage,  flips and movement tricks natively, as well as a decent amount of scheming, anti-scheming, card draw and special 'tech' (think Ruthless, Unimpeded, the  Put It Down trigger on Lord Cooper's rifle, and the Rex'  Territorial trigger) in those three boxes.

If you're looking for a single fixed crew list, this is what I'd go for:

• Lord Cooper
• 3x Runaways
• Model 9
• Malisaurus Rex
• Ullr
• Artemis
• Crypsis Corps with Flush With Cash
• Vatagi Huntsmen / Hopeful Prospect

With a Huntsmen, this leaves 6 Soulstones free, which is plenty to work with. If you wanted to aim for a slightly more competitive fixed list, sub the Vatagi Huntsmen out in favour of a Hopeful Prospect (just convert/proxy one of your Huntsmen into a Prospect).

With the extra 2ss saving, you can either opt for a Treasure Map, which is a pretty versatile upgrade in general, and fits nicely on a Hopeful Prospect itself to allow it to remove Markers and draw more cards, or on Lord Cooper who appreciates the Deadly Pursuit push to leave melee, or just put a second Flush With Cash on whichever model you like. Again, I'd probably put it on the Hopeful Prospect just to maximise your card cycling and chance for Soulstones from Insurance. 

The main weaknesses you'll have with this kind of fixed crew would be:

• Almost universally poor Wp (just hope you don't play against Dreamer 😉) 
• Relatively fragile defensive tech. Riders, especially of the Hooded or Dead variety, dunk on the Rex hard, while anything that Ignores Armour, or worse, has Irreducible damage, will cleave through Model 9 in a heartbeat. 
• No access to Condition Removal. (Hopeful Prospect helps!)
• Very limited Healing (Hopeful Prospect helps!)
• In some Scheme Pools, insufficient scheming/anti-scheming potential. (Treasure map helps!)

[esqulax]

Have people had more time to test out Malisaurus? It might be one of the models I have heard the most different opinions about. 

It can do some ok things, but overall it might seem a bit subpar to me on paper? 4df/4wp I imagine might also make it too easy to take out, but what do you guys think ? 

[OctaBit]

I've played a couple games with it with Cooper1, and it's done reasonably well. Does pretty much what you expect, big ol' beater that stomps up the board and eats something. It hits reasonably hard but it's not particularly sturdy. If your opponent has anything with ruthless you should focus it down quickly. Obeys can also mess it up quite a bit. My meta has a gentlemens agreement that territorial shouldn't prevent it from moving itself, but even still having your own model charge 7" back to hit Cooper for a decent amount doesn't feel great.

 

Other than that, the lashing tendrils is a pretty good action that can sometimes get you an extra ap. I haven't gotten much use out of wild hunt. I feel like it's win more in a lot of instances:

Cooper - if I need adversary on a key model I'll probably just use most dangerous game to do it.

Model 9 - execute is cool but I normally have 9 on the flank or the enemies back field doing a scheme or strat.

Artemis - I can dig it is cool but not ground breaking. Tracker is nice, but it depends on if I want to push the engaged model away from the rex.

Ullr - hold down is great and might be pretty worth it, but at that point I've finished my activation with the rex, and attacked with ullr. So it would have to be a pretty sturdy target. Definitely are somethings for that but it's more of a rare occurrence then an every game thing. 

Cyprsis corps - same as Cooper 

Vatagi - dropping a bear trap next to them is pretty nice. If the activations align you can get the rex next to them. Shoot a trap next to them, have them go, trigger setup the kill and drop another trap next to them. 

 

I haven't played any games with Cooper2 but he seems like a better master to run the rex. Still potentially squishy, but moving the rex into range with a free charge, to guarantee server injury trigger, followed up by an effectively stat 8 massive jaws seems pretty cool.

[hydranixx]

If you haven't seen it, there's another thread on this forum focusing on general banter about the Rex here:

Within Apex specifically, I'd generally always hire the Rex, except when I strongly suspect my opponent will bring Obey. When I've declared Lord Cooper and found out I'm against Zoraida, I've had good success swapping the Rex out for Mikael (who's resistant to Obey by default, but is also powerful at shutting down models that want to cast Obey just by getting into melee with them, while also having that 3/4/5 at 2".)

Where Rex falls short: Putting it's comical vulnerability to Obey aside for a moment, it's also vulnerable to conditions like Slow, and models with Ruthless or similar abilities, especially if those models have high minimum damage. I've had my poor Rex casually dispatched by Hooded Riders and Dead Riders more than I'd like to admit. 

Where Rex is good: Mobility. The Rex ignores Severe and Hazardous terrain and models entirely while moving, and can either move friendly or enemy models on a Free action. If you have a good  card for that Free action when targeting an enemy, you can also get a free attack at your target, enabling the Rex to periodically fulfil the "3 attacks at min 3" beater role. While it's not always a dedicated beater, the presence of Ruthless is extremely relevant in Apex since your WP is almost universally poor across the board. Utility-wise, Tail Whip and its built-in trigger can be game changing in some match ups and in some scheme pools, and depending what models are able to take advantage of Wild Hunt, it can be pretty clutch sometimes.

On 11/28/2021 at 7:12 PM, OctaBit said:

I haven't gotten much use out of wild hunt. I feel like it's win more in a lot of instances:

Cooper - if I need adversary on a key model I'll probably just use most dangerous game to do it.

Model 9 - execute is cool but I normally have 9 on the flank or the enemies back field doing a scheme or strat.

I generally agree with your assessment, and I opt for Tendrils 90% of the time.

I would add, however, that with Wild Hunt active, if you can combine all three models in melee, you can absolutely shred an opponent's Control Hand, Soulstones, and occasionally, outright models. The discard trigger on Cooper's is much more dangerous than the one on his . When we swings with that built-in, your opponent is either spending a card to dodge your attack, or risks losing a card if you hit, or occasionally both if you Cheat Fate second and still win the duel.

[Ezuma]

Wondering if anyone has any insight on how Cooper works into Zipp, the match-up is proving tricky 

New to Explorers Society, but not to Malifaux, I've played a lot of different masters, but my main opponent just plays Zipp almost every game. Lately I'm trying to get cooper to work, but have only played him against zipp to date (and I wonder if its a particularly bad match up) 

Given most of the crew has innate concealment (and even worse, the first mate has stealth) and on top of that zipp and Earl can drop 4 impassable blocking terrain markers reliably every turn, pretty much anywhere on the map... It feels a lot like I just play to draw the game, rather than actually win. 

In more general terms, are there any match-ups or scheme/strat pools you have avoided taking Cooper in? 

 

*Edit: for added context our latest game is Wedge Deployment, Symbols of Authority (pretty much auto full points for zipp in my experience) schemes: Death beds, Let them bleed, Outflank, Research Mission, Spread them out. Really hard to imagine zipp not scoring max points into that mix imo :p 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Ezuma
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[hydranixx]

On 12/13/2021 at 12:27 PM, Ezuma said:

Wondering if anyone has any insight on how Cooper works into Zipp, the match-up is proving tricky 

New to Explorers Society, but not to Malifaux, I've played a lot of different masters, but my main opponent just plays Zipp almost every game. Lately I'm trying to get cooper to work, but have only played him against zipp to date (and I wonder if its a particularly bad match up) 

Given most of the crew has innate concealment (and even worse, the first mate has stealth) and on top of that zipp and Earl can drop 4 impassable blocking terrain markers reliably every turn, pretty much anywhere on the map... It feels a lot like I just play to draw the game, rather than actually win. 

In more general terms, are there any match-ups or scheme/strat pools you have avoided taking Cooper in? 

 

*Edit: for added context our latest game is Wedge Deployment, Symbols of Authority (pretty much auto full points for zipp in my experience) schemes: Death beds, Let them bleed, Outflank, Research Mission, Spread them out. Really hard to imagine zipp not scoring max points into that mix imo 😛

I haven't played that specific match up - though I have played a fair bit against Zipp in general, and have played a tonne of Lord Cooper vs similarly annoying masters that try tie you up, block your LoS and out manoeuvre you.

Assuming you're playing Original Lord Cooper, your Machete should in theory be an absolute workhouse in the match up. Each swing can remove a Terrain Marker within 1" as part of the action, even if you miss with it, so you can efficiently remove Pianos, while threatening good damage if you hit plus a potential Discard if you hit the trigger, which is fairly reliable if you have Rex's Wild Hunt Aura up as I've detailed in this thread before. You can supplement this Marker removal with Treasure Map, which I highly recommend whenever Research Mission and Death Beds show up in the same pool, and with Jessie Halliday. Either or both of these will give you additional options to deny Zipp's scoring and keep the Piano count to a minimum. 

Target number one should be Earl. He's pretty easy to kill with a 5 damage moderate. Pop Adversary on him and you'll either pop him in one shot when he shows his face, or he'll be forced to hide away, reducing his effectiveness.

While Concealing can be annoying, Adversary more or less can cancel it out on at least one key target each turn. If you have good cards and LoS to a good target, don't be afraid to throw in a Soulstone for another +1 to the Attack Flip with Lord Cooper, which you can swap to +1 to the Damage Flip with Predatory Instinct. 7 Severe damage comes pretty close to outright killing an Iron Skeeter.

There's not a lot you can do about The First Mate except punish him if/when he comes in close to you. I have once managed to bait The First Mate in (against Zoraida), then position Lord Cooper to be exactly 4.1" away from him so he can't Butterfly Jump into me to tie me up, and then two-tap him with the rifle, which killed him. But I understand you're not always going to have that kind of opportunity. Treasure Map again comes up clutch, either helping remove Markers he's placing down for scoring, or using Deadly Pursuit to avoid or catch him.