Lord Cooper (Apex Keyword) Discussion

[NoisyAssassin]

Had my first real game with Apex last night vs. Von Schill. Standard Symbols with Hidden Martyrs, Sabotage, Claim Jump, Breakthrough, and Leave Your Mark. My list was:

Cooper
3 Runaways
Model 9
Artemis
Ullr
Bellhop Porter
Crypsis Corps
Vatagi Huntsman
Hopeful Prospect
5ss
 

We both picked Sabotage, and I took Hidden Martyrs on the dogs while he took Claim Jump on a Drachen Trooper. We were playing over TTS for the first time, and were both a bit rusty, so we ended up calling it at the top of T3 due to time. Apex had 2 points for strat and 1 for Martyrs (RIP Artemis), while Freikorps had 1 for strat. If it had played out we guessed that the final score would have had Apex up by 1 in the end. 

Some block-o-text thoughts on the game/Apex models. I was worried about the amount of beatdown that Arik, Hannah, and VS could bring to bear, but he was very worried about Cooper's gun, to the point where he spent several AP on a vareity of expensive models to walk backwards in his deployment zone to get behind a hill and out of LoS. Artemis and Ullr were absolute MVPs as expected, scoring me both symbols, the Martyrs point, and dropping a scheme to start setting up Sabotage. Both of us were somewhat surprised by just how mobile and effective they were. Model 9 was a massive resource sink to both keep alive and let him do enough damage to kill a Freikorpsman, but he was also a bit of a resource sink for my opponent, and having him upfield as a By Your Side Target was super helpful. Stoning for the Burst of Speed trigger when needed seemed absolutely worth it. Bellhop didn't do much, but just standing next to Cooper with the options for I've Got Your Back and Extended Reach really threw off my opponent's plan to dive on Cooper with Hannah. So probably not taking it every time but it seemed helpful. Finally, the Cryspsis, Vatagi, and Prospect were all pretty meh. Crypsis and Prospect together failed to kill a Freikorpsman, and all Vatagi managed was drawing a card and missing a shot. In games where the opponent is coming to me and I've got good firing lanes they all might be more impressive, but in this game I'd have rather had something more mobile. 

[vinnyt16]

Ok folks, I did the unspeakable. I hired the Alpinist to see just how bad it is. And honestly, I was pleasantly surprised. It's dies almost immediately, but it actually has some real utility in how I've been running Cooper's crew as a highly reactive mobile troop instead of a gunline. 

The goat is shockingly speedy with its movement 5 and rush meaning it can yeet itself 12" up the board. Plus the rope is actually a quick action so you can pretty easily end up going 16" in a single activation. It also makes it shockingly hard to hide from cooper behind terrain or other models, especially when comboed with the bellhop porter. 

It's super niche but like I'm picturing a goat sprinting up the field and lassoing Yan Lo out of his Komainu bubble while Cooper sits on the Porter's shoulder and blows him away. Plus, for 5SS the goat can actually last a few minutes in combat with an equivalently cheap and crappy scheme runner. Idk, I just like the goat and I think he's funny. I also think apex is probably the only crew where he'd have even the slightest chance of being taken. Model 9 and Artemis are super killy and I find myself not wanting to waste actions dropping scheme markers with them. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, vinnyt16 said:

Ok folks, I did the unspeakable. I hired the Alpinist to see just how bad it is. And honestly, I was pleasantly surprised. It's dies almost immediately, but it actually has some real utility in how I've been running Cooper's crew as a highly reactive mobile troop instead of a gunline. 

The goat is shockingly speedy with its movement 5 and rush meaning it can yeet itself 12" up the board. Plus the rope is actually a quick action so you can pretty easily end up going 16" in a single activation. It also makes it shockingly hard to hide from cooper behind terrain or other models, especially when comboed with the bellhop porter. 

It's super niche but like I'm picturing a goat sprinting up the field and lassoing Yan Lo out of his Komainu bubble while Cooper sits on the Porter's shoulder and blows him away. Plus, for 5SS the goat can actually last a few minutes in combat with an equivalently cheap and crappy scheme runner. Idk, I just like the goat and I think he's funny. I also think apex is probably the only crew where he'd have even the slightest chance of being taken. Model 9 and Artemis are super killy and I find myself not wanting to waste actions dropping scheme markers with them. 

Don't forget you can charge an ally and knock them up the field with the built in mask!

[NoisyAssassin]

2 hours ago, vinnyt16 said:

Artemis [is] super killy and I find myself not wanting to waste actions dropping scheme markers with [her]. 

That's...not a sentence I was expecting to see. She's got a really solid attack for a 6ss model, but it's not spectacular, and she's not exactly built to take hits back. Compared to her amazing scheming potential it seems a waste to have her attacking. How are you using her? Hunting low-end scheme runners, or getting mixed up in bigger fights?

And I almost tried the mechagoat in my game, until I realized that it actually doesn't help with/bypass big climbable hills, which were a big percentage of our board. The robot designed to help climb mountains just...doesn't. Maybe it's too busy screaming into the void to do its job?

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, NoisyAssassin said:

And I almost tried the mechagoat in my game, until I realized that it actually doesn't help with/bypass big climbable hills, which were a big percentage of our board. The robot designed to help climb mountains just...doesn't. Maybe it's too busy screaming into the void to do its job?

Yeah, it seems like a massive oversight. Although it helps with climbing terrain (since you ignore vertical distance), you just can't walk through impassable + blocking terrain?

[DonQOT]

Can you help me understand what you mean here? So you mean that the climbing gear doesn't do anything for sloped ground? Because if it is climbable then the alpinist at least eliminates the vertical distance, yes?

Also, doesn't climbing gear allow you to cross impassable terrain? It's basically like no terrain exists for movement purposes within that aura, yeah? So you could hop over that ice pillar or what have you.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, DonQOT said:

Can you help me understand what you mean here? So you mean that the climbing gear doesn't do anything for sloped ground? Because if it is climbable then the alpinist at least eliminates the vertical distance, yes?

Also, doesn't climbing gear allow you to cross impassable terrain? It's basically like no terrain exists for movement purposes within that aura, yeah? So you could hop over that ice pillar or what have you.

The issue is that it is an aura. The moment you start walking through an impassable building for instance, you lose LOS to the aura and don't gain its benefit.

For climbable things, you can just go straight to the top of them.

[DonQOT]

Hmm. I figured it wouldn't stop working until the move was complete but I see why that would be wrong.

Los wouldn't be lost until its base was already in the terrain, right? What would the rules do with a model losing the ability halfway through moving through impassable terrain?

Abject horror from the rest of the crew as that Vasagi screamed, his body merged partway through a brick wall by the terrible, maddening power of the boilergoat?

[Maniacal_cackle]

24 minutes ago, DonQOT said:

Hmm. I figured it wouldn't stop working until the move was complete but I see why that would be wrong.

Los wouldn't be lost until its base was already in the terrain, right? What would the rules do with a model losing the ability halfway through moving through impassable terrain?

Abject horror from the rest of the crew as that Vasagi screamed, his body merged partway through a brick wall by the terrible, maddening power of the boilergoat?

Haha, at that point it ceases to be legal. You have to have 100% of the move be legal.

If it lasted until the end of the move, it'd be something like "models that start a move within aura4 ignore terrain until the end of that movement."

[vinnyt16]

4 hours ago, NoisyAssassin said:

That's...not a sentence I was expecting to see. She's got a really solid attack for a 6ss model, but it's not spectacular, and she's not exactly built to take hits back. Compared to her amazing scheming potential it seems a waste to have her attacking. How are you using her? Hunting low-end scheme runners, or getting mixed up in bigger fights?

And I almost tried the mechagoat in my game, until I realized that it actually doesn't help with/bypass big climbable hills, which were a big percentage of our board. The robot designed to help climb mountains just...doesn't. Maybe it's too busy screaming into the void to do its job?

I’ve been using Artemis to hunt higher end scheme runners like Desper. She’s definitely not like a 1v1 beater but 19” threat range ignoring severe terrain stat 6 2/3/5 with the crit strike trigger is pretty devastating against things like torakage, gokudo, bultungin, or other low to mid tier schemers. 

[admiralvorkraft]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Haha, at that point it ceases to be legal. You have to have 100% of the move be legal.

If it lasted until the end of the move, it'd be something like "models that start a move within aura4 ignore terrain until the end of that movement."

You could do something where most of your base "clips" through terrain, but a bit of it is visible the whole time. And I think you can get through ice pillars type (30mm) markers just fine for the same reason you can't stand on a scheme marker and block LOS to it.

But that's just my read.

[NoisyAssassin]

5 hours ago, DonQOT said:

Can you help me understand what you mean here? So you mean that the climbing gear doesn't do anything for sloped ground? Because if it is climbable then the alpinist at least eliminates the vertical distance, yes?

Also, doesn't climbing gear allow you to cross impassable terrain? It's basically like no terrain exists for movement purposes within that aura, yeah? So you could hop over that ice pillar or what have you.

After last year's errata, it won't help for climbable terrain at all unless you have enough movement to get all the way through it. They added the last sentence at the end, which tells you how to treat the vertical distance if you ignore the terrain. Notice that it has the exact same wording as the normal effects of that terrain:  

So ignoring it doesn't have any effect other than allowing you to move through it. Basically it'll help with ice pillars, small barrel piles, etc. As mentioned above though, if only part of that terrain is within 4" of the goat or it's wider than the moving model's base (and thus would break LoS) then you also lose the benefit.

[touchdown]

It lets you climb at full speed instead of half right?

[NoisyAssassin]

Climbing isn't half speed even if you don't ignore the terrain trait (just did a Ctrl+F through the rulebook to verify)

[touchdown]

oh huh, I wonder why I thought that. Weird then climbing gear does not seem to help much. Guess you can go through severe terrain.

[NoisyAssassin]

It's a pretty common rule in most other skirmish wargames, so pretty reasonable to get mixed up. 

[admiralvorkraft]

50 minutes ago, NoisyAssassin said:

It's a pretty common rule in most other skirmish wargames, so pretty reasonable to get mixed up. 

And was the case in m2e. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Note Alpinist lets you ignore vertical distance.

Near an Alpinist, you can go on top of a building without spending any extra movement as long as you're in the aura.

Alpinist doesn't just let you ignore the terrain (which by itself wouldn't give a free climb), it ignores vertical distance (which gives a free climb).

[Maniacal_cackle]

 

[NoisyAssassin]

Totally missed that part of the ability. Carry on, nothing to see here, just failing to read cards 😅

[Maniacal_cackle]

12 minutes ago, NoisyAssassin said:

Totally missed that part of the ability. Carry on, nothing to see here, just failing to read cards 😅

To be fair, there are only two cards in Malifaux that reference vertical distance (Alpinist & Calypso), so it appears to be a new thing that they did after the errata.

[hydranixx]

Even in that niche space, I can't see myself spending 5ss for an Alpinist. If the board is so cluttered with big vertical terrain that it's ever relevant, picking a master whose signature trait is using a 14" linear gun is probably the wrong decision anyway. But I'd happy to be proven wrong if someone is seeing success with an Apex Alpinist as the model is kind of hilarious.

Bellhop Porter and Alpinist aside, is anyone having any luck bringing other Versatile or OOK models to Apex crews? Or does the Adversary theme reduce your incentive to bring other models?

For my part, I've tried Tannenbaum and Vernon & Welles each once to add some dedicated Scheming and utility, and will happily hire them again in selected scheme pools. 

Tannenbaum seems amazing in schemes like Leave Your Mark and Research Mission as he can nudge Markers one way or the other in your favour with Haphazard Topography, or even Study to outright turn a Corpse or Scrap Marker into a friendly Scheme Marker. I think with Leave Your Mark in particular, it's almost impossible to score it against Tannenbaum, unless you have a trick to out-activate him or you can kill him; in my game with him he had Markers in the centre under lock-and-key to secure Leave Your Mark for me and deny it for my opponent.

Rewrite The Story looks especially useful in Apex should you pick up a 13 or RJ in the mid game. My reasoning is that a typical Apex crew will often opt for Schemes like Claim Jump, Leave Your Mark, Hidden Martyrs, Vendetta or Assassinate, as they're not an especially Schemey crew. However, once revealed, these schemes can be very difficult to secure that 2nd point off, as they give a lot of agency to your opponent. Swapping one of these out for a humble Spread Them Out or Sabotage on turn 3 or 4 can give you a much more feasible way to score your second VP.

Rules Lawyering Time: I'd be interested to learn how it works with swapping to Assassinate in particular, because while Rewrite The Story stipulates you have to choose models that are in play for your newly-chosen Scheme if that scheme selects model(s), Assassinate doesn't stipulate choosing a model at all - you simply earn a point if their Leader is not in play at the end of the game. So, if you have already killed their Master, can you swap a scheme to Assassinate? If so, you've just automatically scored a 2nd VP come the end of the game.

 

Vernon & Welles can operate as independent Scheme runners like no other, with access to Walk + Interact, then Walk + Interact, or even just triple Walk + Interact, so naturally they're excellent in Symbols of Authority, and any Scheme which requires positional Interacting.

They offer ways to attack Wp and Mv, which is something sorely lacking in Apex, and have some really game changing triggers (such as Glimpse the Void, at 10" range no less), many of which are tied to a , which Apex seldom has any relevant triggers for.  

I've found their best ability to be Head In The Clouds, which puts incoming WP attacks on a for nearby friendlies. Apex has such terrible WP values across the board that Vernon & Welles seem almost mandatory against any WP attacking crew. I used this against a Dreamer + Zoraida crew to great effect. Definitely a model I want to play with more in Apex.

[DonQOT]

Hearing that Cooper isn't just played as a gunline is encouraging to me, as he was looking to be my least favorite Explorer master for that worry.

I am going to try and get in a couple of Apex games this weekend to try them out myself, I'll report any interesting finds as I stumble about shooting at everything and anything (or at least amusing cockups on my part).

[Trample]

Has anyone tried thee sandworm with Cooper? I'm wondering if a pair of Vatagi might work well with the sandworm by tossing out some terrain to allow him to pop out right where you need him. With a couple of tomes you can toss them 8" away to set up a targeted strike by the worm from a couple of different angles for round 2. 

The worm's jaws of the beast is Frontier only, so you won't have that advantage, but otherwise he could be a nice addition for 9 points. The sandworm is a pretty solid model anyway. 

I may try it. 

[NoisyAssassin]

Briefly thought about it, but the worm doesn't ignore Hazardous, so it's going to take damage and Injured for popping up from Pit Traps, then again when it acts. That's a lot of self-inflicted pain for not a huge payoff (the Vatagi aren't the most mobile, so you're not getting traps super deep in the enemy side).