Lady Justice Rework

[Filox]

The real problem with LJ and most of GU is lack coherence. In 2e we would deal damage and take some hits. Now we are just a bunch of bad mechanics and worst models without the concept. Free attack is nice, but lack of built in mask on a master leap is bullshit. I don't want to praise RNG Jesus just to będzie able to fight my oponent fairly. I would gladly see trigger removed for built on masks and some other changes. Guild is not coherence. Every model is just worst alt from other faction. And we can easily see this on LJ card and crew. LJ only hasło dmg on her card. I'm okay with this. But for godsake, make her good at this. You want her to be frontliner or backline killer? Show us! What is the most  funny thing. A lot of supp masters have dmg similiar or better to LJ, like McCabe, Seamus, Reva, Nekima. We can even look at Nekima. She is your typical agro master and offers more than LJ. Most of the guild has to take versetile models to be valuable, when Parker just takes Mad Dog and win games. I know we can't make perfect balance for the game, but we can try. Wyrd just has to listen to people who know their stuff and stop making random changes. I, for example have 9 years in competitive wargames (4+ years in Mx rest in 40k) and I can smell OP or shit from almost mile away. I can be wrong about some changes or even entire models, everybody can be wrong. But for godsake. Stop dropping random stuff. Want a good example? Peacekepper. Compare him to other stuff in GU (this time Hoff crew) and you will see result. Want heavy dmg? Take Howard or Melisa, one has nice triggers and better survivality and second has range attacks. Want AP? Joss and Melisa with Expert Marskman can do it better. PK Wk 4 is funny. Wyrd can kill entire masters for sake of the lore. But can't keep things as strong as their should be or at least balanced. Damn, I'm drunk... 

[Antipodean]

Disagree regarding low damage track - min 3, with crit strike, ability to stone and card for, means I can one shot most minions even on a double negative. Combine with the positive on non charge attacks, I can often get/pay for a straight flip on tougher items. Armour and Hard to Kill are still problematic though - choose targets wisely.

I do agree terrifying/manipulative are issues, especially when the totem really helped out on that front in M2E. I'm frequently bringing Lone Marshall and an Exorcist if I think this is even a possibility. 

[clockworkspide]

2 hours ago, Antipodean said:

Disagree regarding low damage track - min 3, with crit strike, ability to stone and card for, means I can one shot most minions even on a double negative. Combine with the positive on non charge attacks, I can often get/pay for a straight flip on tougher items. Armour and Hard to Kill are still problematic though - choose targets wisely.

I do agree terrifying/manipulative are issues, especially when the totem really helped out on that front in M2E. I'm frequently bringing Lone Marshall and an Exorcist if I think this is even a possibility. 

At least they're both in keyword.

[trikk]

6 hours ago, Antipodean said:

Disagree regarding low damage track - min 3, with crit strike, ability to stone and card for, means I can one shot most minions even on a double negative. Combine with the positive on non charge attacks, I can often get/pay for a straight flip on tougher items. Armour and Hard to Kill are still problematic though - choose targets wisely.

I do agree terrifying/manipulative are issues, especially when the totem really helped out on that front in M2E. I'm frequently bringing Lone Marshall and an Exorcist if I think this is even a possibility. 

I think the biggest issue is that the min 3 is not worth most of the support abilities you lose compared to support masters. I mean McCabe has a similar damage output but a lot more support. 
Same with Von Schill and even to an extent Molly. Even Dashel is 2/4/5 with a crit strike and potential Stat 7. He also summons, shoots and gives out focus/heals. They also usually have better stats (McCabe is 6/5 with 17 Wds, Von Schill is 6/7 with built in armor, Survivalist and Blast Resistant, the list goes on)

[Antipodean]

Agreed that the one sided nature of Lady J's abilities (killing) is lacking in comparison to other masters who can also kill (from debatable not as -> as good) and do support work. Technically Lady J can give out focus(es) and crew has plenty of better healing all over the place but still she tends to run solo to be effective. Many other masters can fight to a reasonably comparable degree and support.

Stat wise - you are only looking at defensive stats then yes she is behind. However I place a lot of value in 2" melee range, mobility from leap, hard to wound, and unnatural vigour. I also really like final repose, against the right master and/or scheme pool.

[trikk]

9 hours ago, Antipodean said:

Agreed that the one sided nature of Lady J's abilities (killing) is lacking in comparison to other masters who can also kill (from debatable not as -> as good) and do support work. Technically Lady J can give out focus(es) and crew has plenty of better healing all over the place but still she tends to run solo to be effective. Many other masters can fight to a reasonably comparable degree and support.

Stat wise - you are only looking at defensive stats then yes she is behind. However I place a lot of value in 2" melee range, mobility from leap, hard to wound, and unnatural vigour. I also really like final repose, against the right master and/or scheme pool.

Well, I'm not looking stat-wise. VS is 6/7 with 3 defensive abilities and an option for leap, arcane shield and a shooting attack that's probably slightly worse than Dita`s  

McCabe has 2" engagement, Extended reach when dismounterd, Df6 and a demise.

 

As for flying solo: yes, she can fly solo if she gets an upgrade (because without it she vaporizes pretty fast) but that only works if the rest of the crew can pull it's weight. And I don't think Marshals do

[Morgan Vening]

2 hours ago, trikk said:

As for flying solo: yes, she can fly solo if she gets an upgrade (because without it she vaporizes pretty fast) but that only works if the rest of the crew can pull it's weight. And I don't think Marshals do

That's part of the problem, and it comes up every time we have this debate (and this is at least the third time).

The main issue is that it's the rest of the Keyword that's lacking, yet the focus is nearly always on "fixing" Lady J.

When I think she's fine, and would hire her as a second Master rather than play the disjointed Keyword. Improving her won't change that, or fix the Keyword.

[Filox]

10 hours ago, Antipodean said:

Stat wise - you are only looking at defensive stats then yes she is behind. However I place a lot of value in 2" melee range, mobility from leap, hard to wound, and unnatural vigour. I also really like final repose, against the right master and/or scheme pool.

Okay, I can do comparison with other typical Melee Masters. Leaving "stats"
Sisters: SS wise you get 22 SS when LJ & Totem are 18. Have better healing than LJ. Give each other Shielded (up to 2 on each, so in total 4) Great built in mobility and fine Demise. Main AA is their Katana, engage lesser than LJ, though stat increased by 1. They have severe bigger by one. And now we dont to Triggers. LJ has Stunning Strike (It's nice trigger), Quick Reflexes (meh/okay in some scenarios) and critical strike (Which is good trigger). sisters have just better version of Quick Reflexes, damaging Pulse and card draw with Discard only if we did not killed the model. Dragon's Bite is perfect for going around Disguised (same job as leap but easier to do). Though we don't 1 free attack, we can "charge" of one model with push for another. Setting up better Quick Reflexes. That's the main stuff one their cards, won't talk about her shooting, it's not imporant right now. We just have to know that it's there. They get Soldier for Hire and Servant of the dark Powers. Getting both of them Wk action, addind some minor healing. SFH is giving your leader a HTK and possible SS generator, but let's treat it as only HTK. There is more attacks on Df than are on WP.  

Nekima: Cost is 17 so one less from LJ. Lesser WP for greater Mv (1 for 1). Black Blood wchich is awesome this edition, mostly because most models has 0-1 engagement range. Regenration is nice. Built in trigger on Df which most likely gonna draw you card. Fligh which is nice. Multi charge and another healing. For her attack, it's just awesome. Mi 7, range 2" and 3/5/6 damage spread. Those moderates are huge, especially when Nephilims can have a lot of Focuses from black blood shaman. Meat for the Young is okay, but we are gonna skip it, let's just us now that's it there. Shove Aside is stupidly powerful trigger. Free attack on anyone with built in push. Let's leave Hurl Corpse for the time being, it's range attack with moving corpses which are a thing in Nekima. Aura for free charges if your models are dieing and free 1 dmg tick great for killing HtK models. As for Upgrade on her we are taking Inhuman, free single tick, which can be huge with unlimited charges and outpush from danger if enemy cheated (which is also free card draw from her Df trigger) or Eldritch Magic for another healing and condition remover. 

Mei Feng: For comparison how she or anybody looks in the eyes of BETTER masters. Free armor, Df 6, free triggers, free pushes and Place of 12" for 1 action. Damage is 2/4/5 with 1" and stat 6. She may not have min 3 dmg on her attack but she pings for one almost every time from Steam Vent. The triggers are, free attack to whoever you want.  Burning with possible scrap and stunned with Crit or discard. Because she can lower her duel by 2 to get free trigger she ss gonna make around 4-6 attacks. If you are attacked by Mi 6 you never try to win it, just put enemy at the negative, giving her around 5 points of stat to get freebie. Second is range attack that actually matter because it can trigger Vent Steam, adding her free pushes of enemy models from Jackhammer Kick quite the threat and easy HtK killer. Vent Steam is obvious, free concealing against shootings and free hazardous for enemy. Lastly her 0 with which is another free push. She can get for her ups Diesel Engine whic is /mehokay, free + to dmg for charge. Magical Training which is free Shielded and counterspell, it's okay. Soulstone Cache is nice. In TT she gets turn off on def triggers and free place for models when she charges, it's okay. HtK with challenge on Silent Protector which is good and trained Ninja which is situational on her, 'cause she does not need Unimpeded and Stealth so it's bad. 

So, comparison to Melee master in general to each other and hybrid as I would like to call them. LJ looks a little worse than others, but most of Melee masters look bad in comparison to hybrid one. And don't make me start with how Specialist and Summoners are strong (specialists are Seamus, Molly etc.)

[Filox]

8 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

That's part of the problem, and it comes up every time we have this debate (and this is at least the third time).

The main issue is that it's the rest of the Keyword that's lacking, yet the focus is nearly always on "fixing" Lady J.

When I think she's fine, and would hire her as a second Master rather than play the disjointed Keyword. Improving her won't change that, or fix the Keyword.

That's true, we are talking here mostly about her when In main thread we try to help her crew in general. I don't require her buffs, but overall fixes with compatibility with her crew. She has a lot of dumb mechanics in her and her crew. Like free focus for friendly models, when she mostly is backline killer as some say. Her trigger is meh, you don't have cards for it or are just better used at attacks. And her leap..., I'll gladly give trigger for built in mask. But, you are right. She does not need immediate changes, she is okay for now. Her crew is in worse state, and that's what we must fix at all cost.

[trikk]

I think she's still on the weaker side but I agree that her keyword needs a serious rework.

[Legislat]

The problem is she is just plain boring. She has zero interesting mechanincs.

The most success i had with her was in Lucius crew. She got everyhing she needed there - entourage, betrayal aura, got your back, cards and shields, possible coordinated attack and analyze weakness. Her crew does not have any essential nor unique utility. Thats quite sad, though we have a pretty successfull player in our meta playing her entirely in keyword. 

I guess thats a matter of perspective. I consider her a pretty weak choice in keyword and situational (expensive, really) choice as an addition to the other keyword. 

"Hits hard, but you kinda need to be a bit lucky and a wacky coffins on top" is not really an attractive description of something i want to play.

[trikk]

14 minutes ago, Legislat said:

The problem is she is just plain boring. She has zero interesting mechanincs.

The most success i had with her was in Lucius crew. She got everyhing she needed there - entourage, betrayal aura, got your back, cards and shields, possible coordinated attack and analyze weakness. Her crew does not have any essential nor unique utility. Thats quite sad, though we have a pretty successfull player in our meta playing her entirely in keyword. 

I guess thats a matter of perspective. I consider her a pretty weak choice in keyword and situational (expensive, really) choice as an addition to the other keyword. 

"Hits hard, but you kinda need to be a bit lucky and a wacky coffins on top" is not really an attractive description of something i want to play.

I think the issue she has is that the keyword is divided into 2 mechanics (anti undead and bury) and both of them are lackluster. The bury doesn't work because it's easy to avoid and 0" engagement is horrible. The anti-undead mechanic doesn't really work because it's limited by opponents crew and the triggers aren't exactly overwhelming either (basically an adversary and an execute)

 

Lady J starts being really boring when you don't have the card for leap  

[Filox]

There is no bad in being boring/easy crew to play. Those are required, I won't give Youko to new player, 'cause she is just too hard. In my opinion, the easy masters should be stronger in very obvious way just 'cause you exactly know what they can do and how to prepare for it and later counter. If your Crew has only one thing on their cards, they should be better at this.  In ideal world, Wyrd should buff all melee crews and/or master. And it's not about being boring or etc., range is way too powerful. Especially when there are a lot of anti-melee mechanics. Like Df triggers, pushes, hazardous and etc. For example, Sonnia has nothing against range, but hazardous for 1 dmg and burning? There it is, easy counter. Put armor on her and noone who runs melee will ever attack her. 

[trikk]

16 minutes ago, Filox said:

There is no bad in being boring/easy crew to play. 

Yes, but boring masters usually have limited options and lose to masters that have flexibility.

[Alerteddonkey42]

6 hours ago, trikk said:

I think she's still on the weaker side but I agree that her keyword needs a serious rework.

This. Her crew is much worse off than she is, but she definitely needs some help on her own card as well. She isn't "bad," but is extremely card reliant in a faction with limited card draw (outside of taking her with Lucius) and her damage output isn't much if any better than other melee masters and some support masters. I would settle for some crew buffs though. 

It's an interesting situation because I've found that she can feel oppressive to newer players with her mobility and damage output (then again, there are a lot of masters that can make new players feel even worse so maybe it's not too bad). However, experienced/competitive players are often relieved by the declaration of Lady J as the opponent's master. To be fair, from what the community says people are often relieved when their opponent declares Guild as their faction so.... 

[Da Git]

An idea I just had for the crew is to make False Accusation on both the Jury & Exocist Stat 6 and give the target Adversary as well as making them Undead. Could get rid of Hunt the Dead trigger... maybe swap for Delay (gives Slow).

This would really help with hand control as you wouldn't need to cheat as much. The attack would actually have a decent chance of hitting and becomes a good action rather than niche.

Definitly make the DMR be good in keyword rather than outside it... Give him Shouting Orders (Marshal) would help as their and Death Marshals' bonus is very niche. Make Coffins 1" and I reckon give Stunned instead/as well as Distracted.

Lady J - bump Decay to stat 6. Maybe change Inspired SS to friendly model takes an Interact action and just be in LoS. This would let her be a lot more efficient, especially as the crew can be very elite.

[trikk]

1 hour ago, Da Git said:

An idea I just had for the crew is to make False Accusation on both the Jury & Exocist Stat 6 and give the target Adversary as well as making them Undead. Could get rid of Hunt the Dead trigger... maybe swap for Delay (gives Slow).

This would really help with hand control as you wouldn't need to cheat as much. The attack would actually have a decent chance of hitting and becomes a good action rather than niche.

Definitly make the DMR be good in keyword rather than outside it... Give him Shouting Orders (Marshal) would help as their and Death Marshals' bonus is very niche. Make Coffins 1" and I reckon give Stunned instead/as well as Distracted.

Lady J - bump Decay to stat 6. Maybe change Inspired SS to friendly model takes an Interact action and just be in LoS. This would let her be a lot more efficient, especially as the crew can be very elite.

Recruiters sound like guys that should have I`ve Got Your Back  Them being min 2 with a bad damage track also doesn't help. They also could have Coordinated Strike on the blade.

 

Decay with Stat 6 should have some other triggers. Slow/Staggered/Siphon Life would suit it I think. Else its a waste of card space.

[Antipodean]

Played Lady Justice last night.

Ley Lines, Breakthrough (selected), Leave Your Mark (selected), Assassinate, Hidden Martyrs, Sabotage

Lady Justice, Scales, Dr Grimwell, Lone Marshall, Pale Rider, 2 Exorcist, Orderly.

Versus TT Asami.

I didn’t want to commit J early, so held back and used Concentrate/Decay (it didn’t do much.. drew a few cards to prevent Injured though). Used the gunline to pressure elsewhere - 2 Exorcists and Lone Marshall can put out some serious pain. Later I used a stone and a 5(R) to leap to within 2” of Ama No Ziko, made 4 attacks with built in GS positives for damage. Got it down to one wound and drew 3 stones for reduction. Ziko attempted to withdraw (was carrying Lodestone) but Lone Marshall later finished it. Elsewhere the Exorcism v Summon, & False Accusation + Into Dust put a ton of pressure out. Grimwell got thrown under a Jorogumo to slow it down. We ended early with J in the middle causing chaos and well on way to getting Breakthrough and Leave Your Mark.

So Decay is pretty average, but is useful for card draw. Getting injured in range of 2 crossbows and a rifle is something enemy will need to prevent on a useful piece.

As we expected, Inspiring Swordplay just doesn’t work with how Lady J plays.

The ability to place 6”, get 4 attacks with (+) on dmg flips makes J a really good single target killer / resource drainer. No sure I could have done that with another Guild master.

Exorcists and Marshall made a pretty devastating firebase.

[whitters]

Nice to see someone else who likes Exorcists. False Accusation is difficult to get off but it does have some nice triggers and helps the rest of the crew a bit.

What I would like to see is a couple more models with False Accusation (maybe the DMR?) and a few baked in masks for triggering hunt the dead. One problem I have with marshals can be mobility (we rely on Lady J for that) and the odd push would help a lot.

I'd also like to see rough riders get the Marshal keyword. I'm not sure how necessary they are in Wastrel but a minion with ride with me and the ability to drop dust makers could help Marshals a lot.

[trikk]

8 hours ago, Antipodean said:

Played Lady Justice last night.

Ley Lines, Breakthrough (selected), Leave Your Mark (selected), Assassinate, Hidden Martyrs, Sabotage

Lady Justice, Scales, Dr Grimwell, Lone Marshall, Pale Rider, 2 Exorcist, Orderly.

Versus TT Asami.

I didn’t want to commit J early, so held back and used Concentrate/Decay (it didn’t do much.. drew a few cards to prevent Injured though). Used the gunline to pressure elsewhere - 2 Exorcists and Lone Marshall can put out some serious pain. Later I used a stone and a 5(R) to leap to within 2” of Ama No Ziko, made 4 attacks with built in GS positives for damage. Got it down to one wound and drew 3 stones for reduction. Ziko attempted to withdraw (was carrying Lodestone) but Lone Marshall later finished it. Elsewhere the Exorcism v Summon, & False Accusation + Into Dust put a ton of pressure out. Grimwell got thrown under a Jorogumo to slow it down. We ended early with J in the middle causing chaos and well on way to getting Breakthrough and Leave Your Mark.

So Decay is pretty average, but is useful for card draw. Getting injured in range of 2 crossbows and a rifle is something enemy will need to prevent on a useful piece.

As we expected, Inspiring Swordplay just doesn’t work with how Lady J plays.

The ability to place 6”, get 4 attacks with (+) on dmg flips makes J a really good single target killer / resource drainer. No sure I could have done that with another Guild master.

Exorcists and Marshall made a pretty devastating firebase.

I played a bit with LJ and I think the biggest issues I have with her are:

5 for a leap
Pretty squishy without LLC
Decay being pretty meh

She's still pretty decent but the bigger issue I have is:
- Marshals have a lot of triggers that do nothing against non-Undead. Into Dust is a worse version of execute and only works on undead
- Pine boxes and recruiters are bad

 

[Morgan Vening]

2 hours ago, trikk said:

I played a bit with LJ and I think the biggest issues I have with her are:

5 for a leap
Pretty squishy without LLC
Decay being pretty meh

She's still pretty decent but the bigger issue I have is:
- Marshals have a lot of triggers that do not against non-Undead. Into Dust is a worse version of execute and only works on undead
- Pine boxes and recruiters are bad

 

I know it's a relatively minor change, but how about...

Into Dust: Target must discard a card or Soulstone or suffer 1 damage. If the target is Undead, instead of taking damage, it is killed instead.

Easy enough to mitigate, not that big a deal most of the time (faux Crit Strike), adds a little oomph, and has a precedent with Judge's Crumble Away.

[trikk]

20 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

I know it's a relatively minor change, but how about...

Into Dust: Target must discard a card or Soulstone or suffer 1 damage. If the target is Undead, instead of taking damage, it is killed instead.

Easy enough to mitigate, not that big a deal most of the time (faux Crit Strike), adds a little oomph, and has a precedent with Judge's Crumble Away.

This is one idea. Hunt the dead also should be made more reliable. I also like the idea of Into Dust working against Incorporeal

 

It would be fun if it would be 1 irreducable damage! 

[Filox]

I had a pretty nice idea about how add a little oomph into LJ keyword. How about mass ignore of HtW on most attacks as ability instead of Hunt the Dead. Into dust would be better as normal Critical Strike or Drain Magic. Recruiter being more aggressive support to Crew than jack of no trades would make them a little stronger. Giving out ignoring incorporeal as  6" . Free push is nice but should in any direction for 3" within' 6". Model should be 6/6, 8 Wd and some Df trigger or ability outside HtW. Balance the Scales is not good 'cause he is not "justice" related. Melee attack can stay as it is, just add free ram to it. Shooting should be change on something more significant. entire bury has to be changed, so too much to talk about it now.

[Filox]

On 9/23/2020 at 4:42 PM, trikk said:

It would be fun if it would be 1 irreducable damage! 

Irrudicible damage is way to strong, just look at Levi. We want BALANCE, to too strong

[Michael Curran]

I carried the baton for LJ all during the testing period, to no avail.  What’s done is done, and in print.  Guild in general should be an elite faction of this game, a proverbial ‘bully’ of the board if you will.  They are anything but that unfortunately.  There are other factions more suited to competitive play.  Continue to play Guild for fun, and jot down wise and discerning ideas for betterment when the time is appropriate.