Lady Justice Rework

[Filox]

So, as many of you who saw LJ and her Crew at the table probably have various feelings about her. Here is my my problem with her and how to fix it. 

So, let's start with overall idea behind her and the crew. They are tough, anti-undead, healing is not an option, it's a must have and finally a lot of Injure. The concept looks nice. We are tough and prolonged combat is only getting worse for the enemy BUT the reality is often dissapoiting. 

LJ is okay master, the ability to give her LLC is neat, but it's only usefull up in entire Guild. For her Greatsword, it's okay. Well balance but kinda on weaker side. Her Decay is thrash, stat 5 on a meh ability with range of charge? Guess how many times I used this. Her defensive triggers is worth shit. 

Totem does nothing, 0 compatibility with the rest of crew. 

Judge is real nice. Hits better then LJ her self, does card draw but the cost of damaging yourself is kinda too have, though LJ will almost always take him 'cause of lack of better card draw on card draining master. Second 0 is also nice. 

Jury is nice model, have nothing against her. Though she is played more in other masters than LJ. 

Lone Marshal, nice sniping model. He is okay but comparing to Rider, he ends up short. 

Recruiter..., let's do not speak about him... 

Domador is okay minion, free heal and obey on undead is good. Though compared to other similiar models he is on weaker side. 

Excorsist is typical tech-model. Though nice triggers against the undead, he does not show much. 

DM is tough and nothing more, new Pine Box is realy bad. 

In quick summary, LJ crew is a little tough but nothing special. There is no healing except Domador. Unnatural Vigor is a nice concept, though noone will see it except the LJ, Judge and Lone Marshal. The undead tech is lacking, not many models turn into undead. Some nice triggers against the undead though core of the Crew have none triggers against them. (Judge has his two 0, LJ has RUO and LM has Adversary, 8 range on 14" range model. The crew being melee and medium range (8") has no mobility except for a master which leap need a SUIT! 

Even though entire Guild is on the weaker side LJ crew does not stick together at all. They have no compability with each other beside Injure and random triggers vs undead. 

My idea for a nice concept would bez giving LJ entire crew false accuastion, adding triggers to it and changing her playstyle to be more anti-undead. Remove stupid triggers like killing summon like nothing. Make them heal more. McMourning heals more then LJ and McCabe does more dmg than her while being supportive master. 

If you have something to add, like idea how  and what to fix, what to left, I'm dumb and Guild is OP specially LJ and what add or remove. Please, help me that the Wyrd done a kindahalf-assed with some 3ed models. 

See ya! 

[trikk]

11 minutes ago, Filox said:

So, as many of you who saw LJ and her Crew at the table probably have various feelings about her. Here is my my problem with her and how to fix it. 

So, let's start with overall idea behind her and the crew. They are tough, anti-undead, healing is not an option, it's a must have and finally a lot of Injure. The concept looks nice. We are tough and prolonged combat is only getting worse for the enemy BUT the reality is often dissapoiting. 

LJ is okay master, the ability to give her LLC is neat, but it's only usefull up in entire Guild. For her Greatsword, it's okay. Well balance but kinda on weaker side. Her Decay is thrash, stat 5 on a meh ability with range of charge? Guess how many times I used this. Her defensive triggers is worth shit. 

Totem does nothing, 0 compatibility with the rest of crew. 

Judge is real nice. Hits better then LJ her self, does card draw but the cost of damaging yourself is kinda too have, though LJ will almost always take him 'cause of lack of better card draw on card draining master. Second 0 is also nice. 

Jury is nice model, have nothing against her. Though she is played more in other masters than LJ. 

Lone Marshal, nice sniping model. He is okay but comparing to Rider, he ends up short. 

Recruiter..., let's do not speak about him... 

Domador is okay minion, free heal and obey on undead is good. Though compared to other similiar models he is on weaker side. 

Excorsist is typical tech-model. Though nice triggers against the undead, he does not show much. 

DM is tough and nothing more, new Pine Box is realy bad. 

In quick summary, LJ crew is a little tough but nothing special. There is no healing except Domador. Unnatural Vigor is a nice concept, though noone will see it except the LJ, Judge and Lone Marshal. The undead tech is lacking, not many models turn into undead. Some nice triggers against the undead though core of the Crew have none triggers against them. (Judge has his two 0, LJ has RUO and LM has Adversary, 8 range on 14" range model. The crew being melee and medium range (8") has no mobility except for a master which leap need a SUIT! 

Even though entire Guild is on the weaker side LJ crew does not stick together at all. They have no compability with each other beside Injure and random triggers vs undead. 

My idea for a nice concept would bez giving LJ entire crew false accuastion, adding triggers to it and changing her playstyle to be more anti-undead. Remove stupid triggers like killing summon like nothing. Make them heal more. McMourning heals more then LJ and McCabe does more dmg than her while being supportive master. 

If you have something to add, like idea how  and what to fix, what to left, I'm dumb and Guild is OP specially LJ and what add or remove. Please, help me that the Wyrd done a kindahalf-assed with some 3ed models. 

See ya! 

I really think Marshals are spread between 2 mechanics and both of them don't really work that well.

We have the Bury mechanic models (DM, Recruiter, 50% Jury) that doesn't work because Pinebox is too restricted and not AP-efficient. Make it 1" and TN14/better triggers on DMs,

We have the anti-Undead mechanic models (Exorcists, Lone Marshal, Judge, 50% Jury, Domador) which doesn't really work if you're not playing vs Undead. You need setup for half of your unbuilt triggers to work which is probably 1 step too complicated to work. If you make the triggers built in, then it will work vs non-Undead but Undead will be perma-executed. If you balance it for undead, it's shit vs non-undead. 

 

As for specific models:

Totem: I really wish the totem had a to Wp duels aura to help with terrifying. It should either be a buff totem or give it decent stats and make it an annoyance to the enemy (df5, 6 wds fe). Right now if he gets close, he gives out points (not insignificant) but with 3 df and 4 wds he won't tank anything really.

LJ: I wish she had "Balancing the Scales" (not built in)  instead of counterattack trigger or at least 14 Wds. I mean she'd still be less tanky/annoying than Ironsides... 

Lone Marshal: ok-ish Although he could have a more interesting gun (Hunt the Dead for example). I mean Guild really lacks triggers on shooting attacks.

DMs (make them Mv 6 or unimpended)

Recruiters: make Grim Recruitment Living friendlies, and not minions only. And they should really have a built in ram on the blade. I mean 2/3/4 on an offensive 8SS models is....

[Filox]

I would rather see Recruiter make DM after killing them while buried and then would unbury withing X". Not so strong but flavorfull. 

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Filox said:

McMourning heals more then LJ and McCabe does more dmg than her while being supportive master. 

 

? I mean, sure I would expect the experimentalist Doctor who brings dead things back to a form of life to heal more. I don't understand how you find McCabe does more damage than Lady Justice.  About the only circumstance I can get him doing more damage is when the enemy model starts between 23 and 29" away from you, because Lady Justice can't actually reach with her sword at that point.

Lady Justice is one of the top damage dealers in the game according to the probabilities (Viks and Nekima will do slightly more damage to models with better Df numbers, but less damage to models with lower Df ). The to damage if you don't charge on a model with leap really makes a huge difference to the damage possibilities.

 

30 minutes ago, Filox said:

LJ is okay master, the ability to give her LLC is neat, but it's only usefull up in entire Guild. For her Greatsword, it's okay. Well balance but kinda on weaker side. Her Decay is thrash, stat 5 on a meh ability with range of charge? Guess how many times I used this. Her defensive triggers is worth shit. 

I've heard lots of people say her Df trigger is rubbish. I disagree, but I am fully prepared to admit that I think it is strong, because I play against people that actively make use of it, and have made use of it over all 3 editions. If you put 0 effort into it, then yes it will only come up occasionally, and probably not at important times, but if you actively hold high mask cards to use for her DF, then you will find that people really can't afford to just try opportune attacks against her. It is a play style that requires you to teach your opponent the danger of the trigger, so it may not be as good in random games against people you don't know, but if you regularly play the same people, then it is probably worth doing. I have had masters charge her that end up taking more damage during their activation than they deal. Suffer that a few times and you soon learn how strong it can be. Its true strength is in the fear and doubt that it can install in your foes, and that can take several games of effort to teach them that they need to fear it. But if you don't put the effort into it, then yes its not very good, and it can take several games of lots of effort to train your opponent's to worry about it, but once you are there you can get a lot out of Bluffing. In a typical justice crew I don't think there are many better uses for a red joker in hand than cheating her Df flip. It has the capability to act as 2 APs worth of effect, because not only is it making your opponent waste their AP, it is also making them take a significant amount of damage, that is equal to attack from you.  But I fully appreciate that this is a play style, and will not be true for a lot of people.

 

(I think it is one of those abilities you only see how good it is when you play against it, not when you play with it. You don't know how many times it has changed your opponents thought process, from the choice to attack Justice or not, to the use of cheat cards through out the whole turn/game because they want to attack her).

 

[trikk]

12 minutes ago, Adran said:

(I think it is one of those abilities you only see how good it is when you play against it, not when you play with it. You don't know how many times it has changed your opponents thought process, from the choice to attack Justice or not, to the use of cheat cards through out the whole turn/game because they want to attack her).

If Justice was Df6, I'd probably agree with you. In M2E she had the Frank buff that made it at least probable. With Df5 I can't agree with you. The issue I see is that LJ is most likely attacked by stat 6 opponents which means that if you manage to get that RJ and they cheat a 13 you still get hit and wasted a RJ (and with HtW the extra negative is not that big of an issue). 

I also played vs Justice and any crew with decent card draw will outdraw you and make the trigger useless. The potential 1 hit you will get out of it during a game is not worth losing attacks to. It also still is garbage compared to Colette, Ironsides, Von Schtook and a lot more def triggers.

 

 

As for McCabe and the Doc: the issue is their damage output is slightly lower (still debatable for McCabe) but they offer way more in other aspects of the game. As for Leap: she has one of the worst leaps in the game needed a 5 and a mask...

[Filox]

@Adran McCabe have Make Way ability. Built in trigger called Rear Up and this attack allows you to push 2". Push from charge. 3 attacks with trigger and Ride With Me. Triggering Make Way 5 times. Rear Up 3 and his 3 normal attacks. Math is yours

Df triggers is to much situational and compared to Ironsides which always go off is thrash. Also, using 13 with masks instead of attack with trigger is bad in my opinion. 3-10 dmg compared to 3 with negative Filip on dmg. The best dmg dealing master, I don't think so but the toughest one she is. But we are not compaling about her in particular but about her useless Crew and stupid mechanics

[trikk]

I also think there are multiple other ways of making things work for Marshals:
Make False Accusations into a trigger, and not a bonus action.

 

Give DMs On Your Heels on their gun. This way they could place in B2B to try and pine box stuff.

[Adran]

26 minutes ago, trikk said:

If Justice was Df6, I'd probably agree with you. In M2E she had the Frank buff that made it at least probable. With Df5 I can't agree with you. The issue I see is that LJ is most likely attacked by stat 6 opponents which means that if you manage to get that RJ and they cheat a 13 you still get hit and wasted a RJ (and with HtW the extra negative is not that big of an issue). 

I also played vs Justice and any crew with decent card draw will outdraw you and make the trigger useless. The potential 1 hit you will get out of it during a game is not worth losing attacks to. It also still is garbage compared to Colette, Ironsides, Von Schtook and a lot more def triggers.

Maybe its just that I always seem to have bad hands, but if I suspect that my opponent is going to use a red joker, and I only have a 12 which isn't enough to win, then I'm not going to bother to attack. I know I am more likely to have a 12 than Justice is to have the red joker (Or if my best is an 11 that she probably doesn't have a 13, but I don't know. and if I know that the opponent  does often keep good cards to cheat that duel then I tend to act as if shge could at this time) I suffered from it enough times with Df 5 without Frank, that I don't want it to be any better because I am worried that anything that made it better would make it too strong in certain hands.

 

18 minutes ago, Filox said:

@Adran McCabe have Make Way ability. Built in trigger called Rear Up and this attack allows you to push 2". Push from charge. 3 attacks with trigger and Ride With Me. Triggering Make Way 5 times. Rear Up 3 and his 3 normal attacks. Math is yours

Df triggers is to much situational and compared to Ironsides which always go off is thrash. Also, using 13 with masks instead of attack with trigger is bad in my opinion. 3-10 dmg compared to 3 with negative Filip on dmg. The best dmg dealing master, I don't think so but the toughest one she is. But we are not compaling about her in particular but about her useless Crew and stupid mechanics

Leap stoning for trigger. 4 attacks with a higher minimum and straight damage flip. 

As a rough average McCabe will get 2 our of 3 attacks to hit, so 3 pushes and 2 rear ups. That's probably 10 damage without cheating (2 weak damage on your negative flip damage flips, and your opponent naturally failing 3 of the 5 checks. I think slightly below average on the attacks, but above average on the opponent failing checks )

 

Justice hits 3 of 4 attacks. likely to get straight flips at moderate damage (Or more likely, Weak, Moderate severe), for 12 damage. Assume none of those hit her triggers  Those numbers are pretty rough, but I think the odds of the two are about the same. the ability to cheat will lower Mcabe damage and raise Justices, because on those the only real cheat McCabe has is makje that a 3rd hit, and his opponent cheating can lower a few of those ride throughs/make ways.

(Edit missed Ride with me - lets go with that as another 2 damage, so 12 damage. But that's putting the luck more on McCabes side so to even the odds I'd probably have Justice hit a ram to put her at 13.  Its pretty close)

I understand why people think using that 13 as an attack is better, but I think its a slightly false perception. You aren't really comparing the two cases fairly. That 13 is giving you 2 attacks for 1 AP in 1 case, and and denying 1 attack and giving you 1 attack for 0 ap in the other. Both are effectively 2 actions, but 1 of them is 2 for you, and the other is one for you and -1 for your opponent.

[trikk]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

I understand why people think using that 13 as an attack is better, but I think its a slightly false perception. You aren't really comparing the two cases fairly. That 13 is giving you 2 attacks for 1 AP in 1 case, and and denying 1 attack and giving you 1 attack for 0 ap in the other. Both are effectively 2 actions, but 1 of them is 2 for you, and the other is one for you and -1 for your opponent.

The 13 on the attack has a higher chance of netting any results than holding it for defense. Not to mention that the occasional 3 damage is worth piling up attacks against her. Not to mention non-melee attacks that don't give a damn about your trigger.

 

3 minutes ago, Adran said:

 

 

Leap stoning for trigger. 4 attacks with a higher minimum and straight damage flip. 

As a rough average McCabe will get 2 our of 3 attacks to hit, so 3 pushes and 2 rear ups. That's probably 10 damage without cheating (2 weak damage on your negative flip damage flips, and your opponent naturally failing 3 of the 5 checks. I think slightly below average on the attacks, but above average on the opponent failing checks )

Justice hits 3 of 4 attacks. likely to get straight flips at moderate damage (Or more likely, Weak, Moderate severe), for 12 damage. Assume none of those hit her triggers  Those numbers are pretty rough, but I think the odds of the two are about the same. the ability to cheat will lower Mcabe damage and raise Justices, because on those the only real cheat McCabe has is makje that a 3rd hit, and his opponent cheating can lower a few of those ride throughs/make ways.

I'm sorry but that probability is awful. McCabe is 6 vs 5. 3 attacks with built in trigger. So with more or less equal hands he can hit you 3 times which suddenly triggers 2 extra tests and 2 damage which makes the damage better or at least on par.

Lady J has to have a stone, a 5+M or R, and hit 3 times 6 vs 6 which isn't that easy. 

 

But even with your calculations Lady J has to have suits. Lady J does 2 more damage if she gets everything right. Now McCabe also can give out upgrades, has a better ranged attack, is faster and has Ride with Me. Oh, and extra Wounds

 

So I'd say McCabe eats LJ for breakfast with pure damage, and on top of that he has a decent support role.

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, trikk said:

The 13 on the attack has a higher chance of netting any results than holding it for defense. Not to mention that the occasional 3 damage is worth piling up attacks against her. Not to mention non-melee attacks that don't give a damn about your trigger.

 

I'm sorry but that probability is awful. McCabe is 6 vs 5. 3 attacks with built in trigger. So with more or less equal hands he can hit you 3 times which suddenly triggers 2 extra tests and 2 damage which makes the damage better or at least on par.

Lady J has to have a stone, a 5+M or R, and hit 3 times 6 vs 6 which isn't that easy. 

 

But even with your calculations Lady J has to have suits. Lady J does 2 more damage if she gets everything right. Now McCabe also can give out upgrades, has a better ranged attack, is faster and has Ride with Me. Oh, and extra Wounds

 

So I'd say McCabe eats LJ for breakfast with pure damage, and on top of that he has a decent support role.

Maybe this is a play style issue. I generally find that a model is unlikely to hit with all attacks, especially if its an attack that has that potential for multiple damage.  But, as I've already said I am happy to cheat df. And calculating probabilities once you include cheating is pretty hard, so I come up with a rough idea on the outcome without cheating opposed duels.

I was more treating it as them both hitting the same target rather than hitting each other. Since I was talking about their comparable damage output. So its funny to read that 3 attacks should hit 3 times but 4 attacks will struggle to hit 3 times. This may be in part because you and I weren't talking about the same things.

You are right Justice absolutely needs a card in hand and a stone to get there. since its a 5+ of two possible suits I thought that was quite likely to have. McCabe needs the opponent much nearer for his maximum damage (They need to be quite a bit closer for him to charge past them, and still closer than Justices threat range for the first push to be able to pass through, although at that point you ought to ride with me first, so you only lose 1 push)

I was surprised at McCabes damage, I hadn't fully appreciated the likelihood to have 2 extra tests for damage each action, and how quickly that adds up.

 

 

[trikk]

Even if we go through your analogy of them hitting the same thing and that its 10 vs 13 damage (Ill give Justice an extra crit)

The 3 extra damage are not worth all the utility McCabe brings as a support master. He has a super solid ranged attack (6 vs Mv, auto slow +staggered), can give upgrades with Precise, has Ride with Me, Mv 7 and unimpended anr Luna is probably better than Scales.

 

While that 13 dmg is basically all there is on that Lady J card

 

Not to mention that my biggest issue is not LJs strength but that the keyword synergies are bad and don't work.

[le_wahou]

I do not agree with your point of view on the marshals.

LJ : she is a strong and mobile beater. Hard to wound, melee range 2", and the ability to kill easily support models for 2 points of heal gives her a very good survivability. Her damage may not be the highest of the game, but she is still a huge threat for def 5 models. Her melee 6 makes her less effective against stat 6 or 7, but you have enough injured in the keyword to handle this. Her threat range is also very high.

Her riposte does not hit often, but a lot of players will not make end of turn attacks on LJ because of this trigger.

On turns 4 and 5, she will also often be able to score 2 points thanks to her leap.

Her only default is that she is straight forward. She lacks the strange tricks of good masters. Good opponents will know what she can do easily and accept to suffer some losses while scoring on other parts of the map.

Judge : 12" staggered is invaluable. this is the best part of this model. Apart from this, this henchman is a good beater that will need support for movement. This movement problem is a problem because LJ will often leap very far, and the judge will have problems to follow her. He is very good to hold a point.

Jury : mostly a tech piece in my opinion. Her auras seems strong, but she does not have the defensive abilities to be in the middle of the fray.

Lone Marshall : one of the strongest model in guild. 2/4/5 with run and gun and crit strike means a huge threat range. He often competes with rider and lacks the ride with me, but taking both is not a bad idea.

Domador : best guild healer. With 7 wounds and H2W, he survives longer than most guild minions. He deals injured on range and can obey ennemy models that come close. Excellent support on this team. He can also obey your rider or your emissary.

DMR : tech piece. The movement he gives to a marshal team does not justify his cost.

Exorcist : tech piece. To be used only against summoners or keyword reliant on corpse/scrap

DM : cheap model that survives longer than most minion. Not really good, but ok for his cost.

 

To sum up : as with most keywords, you will need some versatiles to get the best of the marshals, but you have a strong core for your crew in keyword.

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, trikk said:

Even if we go through your analogy of them hitting eqch other and that its 10 vs 13 damage (Ill give Justice an extra crit)

The 3 extra damage are not worth all the utility McCabe brings as a support master. He has a super solid ranged attack (6 vs Mv, auto slow +staggered), can give upgrades with Precise, has Ride with Me, Mv 7 and unimpended anr Luna is probably better than Scales.

I wasn't counting them hitting each other. I was looking at them both hitting the same other thing.

I'[m also not commenting on them over all. I was very surprised by the claim that McCabe does more damage than Lady Justice, and questioning it. I still think its a slightly faulty claim, but a lot less than I did when I started looking at it.  Net gun is crazy good, and McCabe is a very strong master at the moment.

 

 

[Da Git]

The big things I'm not a huge fan about the Marshal crew are the Recruiters and Death Marshals (which is super sad as these are the iconic minions...). I think the big reason for this is that Pine Box and the whole burying game is really not great. Definitely change the range to 1" and change the Distracted to Stunned. That's a much scarier condition. Leeching Strength also doesn't work with this attack as you need a different model already buried.

Both models lack a decent bonus action. Talos' bonus action would fit these guys perfectly (with or without the trigger):

For the Recruiter,

His One Foot Towards the Grave doesn't really work when half the crew (including this model) has Final Repose. Maybe have it ping when models die or are buried.

Grim Recruitment just makes me sad that this model is so much better in non-Marshal crews. Maybe this could be his Bonus Action (and leave Steal Essence for the DM) somehow? What about:

There's the resser, get him! Rg:6, Stat:6, Rst:Wp, TN:- Target an Enemy Undead model. Summon a Death Marshal into base contact with the target. The Death Marshal immediately suffers 4 damage.

Mask trigger: In the box with you!: Summoned Death Marshal takes the Pine Box action.

 

[Rufess]

Justice is my first master and my most favorite (you can tell from my profile pic). Just like lots of players here I was very upset by the nerf to her during beta test and just switched to another faction.

I however still have some success with her. In a game with Raspy, Justice had tanked the Ice Golem and the Snowstorm for 3 turns meanwhile managed to kill 1 ice dancer, 2 silent one and half of the Snowstorm. Sure the opponent had made mistake on target priority and let his big models to go after Justice for nothing. But still I can see the potential of Justice form this game and others game similarly.

The point is her role had changed from 2E to 3E. Justice is no longer the duelist who loaded up bunch of buffs and jump into the face of opponent crew and still winning the fight. She is now an assassin and bully. Her job is to jumping over the frontline, avoiding big models and tracing after the weaks. She can hunt down a mid cost model(4~6ss) within a swing or two. If you are spending hand or stone, or having some lucky flip, she can remove 2 models in an activation.

The sad part is doing only this would not win the game alone. So Justice needs a crew to do any other things, like scheming, anti-scheming, handling big models, also healing Justice and finishing off models that she missed the last blow.

[James Dyson]

I didn't play any guild in 2E, but one thing I really thought was cool was the Wave 5 upgrade for Lady J that gave her a super Pinebox attack.  I think the bury subtheme would be a good place to go for her, if Wyrd were update Lady J/ come out with a new Title for her.

If a new version of J were to come out with her Ashwood Coffin, giving her Beyond Time (so she can punch buried models) could make her a less schemey, more offensive counterpart to Tara.  If they go a path like this, I think it'd be fair to upgrade Decay to Rot and Rend, and drop the Great sword attack.  Yeah, that'd be a different Lady J entirely - but from a fluff perspective, J diving deeper into those forbidden magics to bring back someone dear (similar to Kirai) could be interesting.  

Less drastically, I like the idea of buffing the basic Pine Box to 1", to match the same range as Peacebringer Blade.  In 2e it used to be an opposed willpower duel to unbury - maybe that would make it stronger?  It forces your opponent to bank a card for the duel (as opposed to a moderate).

[Filox]

On 8/20/2020 at 1:29 PM, Da Git said:

The big things I'm not a huge fan about the Marshal crew are the Recruiters and Death Marshals (which is super sad as these are the iconic minions...). I think the big reason for this is that Pine Box and the whole burying game is really not great. Definitely change the range to 1" and change the Distracted to Stunned. That's a much scarier condition. Leeching Strength also doesn't work with this attack as you need a different model already buried.

Both models lack a decent bonus action. Talos' bonus action would fit these guys perfectly (with or without the trigger):

For the Recruiter,

His One Foot Towards the Grave doesn't really work when half the crew (including this model) has Final Repose. Maybe have it ping when models die or are buried.

Grim Recruitment just makes me sad that this model is so much better in non-Marshal crews. Maybe this could be his Bonus Action (and leave Steal Essence for the DM) somehow? What about:

There's the resser, get him! Rg:6, Stat:6, Rst:Wp, TN:- Target an Enemy Undead model. Summon a Death Marshal into base contact with the target. The Death Marshal immediately suffers 4 damage.

Mask trigger: In the box with you!: Summoned Death Marshal takes the Pine Box action.

 

This bonus would be a too strong for DM, my quick fix would look like this. 

Death Marshal: Leeching Strength can target model who is being buried right now. Add reposition on Pinebox and make it range 1". Give them also 6 Mv. 

LJ: Changing Counterattack on Balance the Scales, change Inspiring Swordplay, it's too situational. Leap should have built in Mask. Decay built in crows and stat 6 so it can be alternate for a GS. 

Totem: to terryfing in 6"would be nice. Remove the fate cheating mechanic for healing or smth like that. Push would be nice, most of the Crew is a little to słów. 

Recruiter: One Foot Toward the Grave: change range to 6, make push 3" instead of 2.  Grim Recruitment should summon DM whenever any model is killed within 6"by discarding Soulstone or 2 Card (not sure about the cost), they would start buried and and unbury at the start of their activasion in base contact with Recruiter (or friendly model). Change Drain Magic for Leaching Strength, make it built in. Add reposition. Peacebringer blade should have built in ram.  Add bonus action like Creep Along, something to make him keep up with LJ. 

Exorcist are okay but they need stat 6 on Crossbow. Change Final Rest for something else. LJ does not generate corpses... 

Domador should have the ability that friendly models can treat anymodels as being undead for purposes of abilities or actions. Instead of Entropy give them Leeching Life? (maybe, not sure about this). 

Judge: Buff his bonus action which draw cards, suffering 6 dmg is not a very healthy mechanic, suffer 1 and keep every card. Add CS to his Katana. 

Jury: Aura that make you discard card for a concentrate is Bad. Give her the same Undead ability as Domador to change models into undead. Lone Marshal should even go down a stone,  get Friendly Fire or get free focus as bonus action. 

 

Overall changes: Final Repose should even be implemented if we do not remove corpses marker mechanics as we can chaosu if we want to discard corpses or stat as it is of we remove CPM. 

Every action or trigger targeting the undead should also included Incorporale models. I'm preaty sure that Kirai spirits are "dead".

 

I'm done folks, thanks for nice ideas abou how to Improve her, especially @trikk. If you have other ideas about changing LJ, or how to fix her. Write it down here, so we can find the best exit from this sitiation LJ (and kinda big chunk of Guild) is right now. 😃

 

 

[trikk]

What I would do is change Hunt the Dead to:

Quote

If the target is undead, it gains the Adversary (Marshal). If not, it gains the Undead Characteristic until the End Phase. 

and built it into a few models.

 

Then either make the pinebox a 1" attack with Wp14 or a 5" without the melee symbol. 

[Antipodean]

I've only used Lady J a few times in M3E, but still find her fun and effective. I think she isn't quite as good as she was post broken promises M2E but certainly better than pre broken promises M2E. Having Leap on the back of the card is always worth using a stone and mid card for. Often I use end of turn one to get her up the board behind a wall with some focus, then turn 2/3 launch her into the squishy section of the enemy army. I can usually cut down at least 2-3 minions, then often watch the enemy spend 1-2 turns killing her off. So long as her death isn't a problem - /scheme/strat wise. 

That being said, Decay on her is very meh, and pine box in general for the keyword is still very weak and disappointing.

Scales is -okay- for a totem for me. Gives an activation, card draw, and a late game distraction. Not outstanding but fine. I miss the WP bonus aura though. Judge is taken depending on strat/scheme pool, and also opponent - denying certain crews scrap and corpse markers is very powerful. Domador has to be one of the most reliable healers in the game, and come with a (suit included) selective obey to boot for early turns.

The Lone Marshal is my favourite model of late, in and out of faction. Have yet to regret bringing him.  Very tempted to put expert marksman on him. 

Death Marshall and DMR haven't been particularly stunning, I still run 1-2 of the former if I need some cheap activations.

I will endeavour to use her a bit more and see how I go.

[ShinChan]

My main problem with Marshall is how counter intuitive is the Final Repose and how it hampers other abilities. It should give the option to choose if the enemy drops any markers or just change it to ignore Demise abilities.

Death Marshalls are fine for a 5ss minion. They're tough as fuck, but maybe they could use some improvement in their movement, to not fall behind.

Exorcists are very situational. They really need Run and Gun to be able to take full advantage from them. Otherwise they're too squishy and just a "once in a while" pick. At least their False Accusation should have Stat 6. They're a 5ss minion for what they do, but they cost 1ss extra just to have that extra wound.

I think that DMR are decent shooting platforms, specially with the Expert Marksman upgrade. What really bother me is again a Final Repose that instead of benefiting the crew just makes it worse and that the two auras don't have the same size (both should be 5" at least, ideally 6").

Lady Justice is fine, I can't see how McCabe is going to put more damage consistently than a LJ that has a built-in  to the damage, +1 damage in all the categories and access to critical strike.

[Antipodean]

The McCabe thing is a combination of Bull Whip's basic damage 2/3/4, Rear Up Trigger, and Make Way! with Trample.

Theoretically...

1.McCabe charges, gets to close to base of enemy model. Does the 2/3/4 Bull Whip attack (with Rear Up)

2.Push 2" per attack - trigger Make Way!, use Trample to move through enemy (so need to be closer than 2" really) for TN13 Mv duel for 2 damage.

3.Rear up for TN13 Df duel for 2 damage.

All in a single action. Assuming all the space is available.

[clockworkspide]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

My main problem with Marshall is how counter intuitive is the Final Repose and how it hampers other abilities. It should give the option to choose if the enemy drops any markers or just change it to ignore Demise abilities.

Death Marshalls are fine for a 5ss minion. They're tough as fuck, but maybe they could use some improvement in their movement, to not fall behind.

Exorcists are very situational. They really need Run and Gun to be able to take full advantage from them. Otherwise they're too squishy and just a "once in a while" pick. At least their False Accusation should have Stat 6. They're a 5ss minion for what they do, but they cost 1ss extra just to have that extra wound.

I think that DMR are decent shooting platforms, specially with the Expert Marksman upgrade. What really bother me is again a Final Repose that instead of benefiting the crew just makes it worse and that the two auras don't have the same size (both should be 5" at least, ideally 6").

Lady Justice is fine, I can't see how McCabe is going to put more damage consistently than a LJ that has a built-in  to the damage, +1 damage in all the categories and access to critical strike.

Final Repose is "No markers if I kill you," right?  Does anything in the keyword really trigger off Corpse Markers?

[le_wahou]

4 hours ago, clockworkspide said:

Final Repose is "No markers if I kill you," right?  Does anything in the keyword really trigger off Corpse Markers?

The exorcist corpse/scrap removal for healing on LOS, and the aura of push toward corpse/undead at beginning of activation for marshals around a DMR

[Tony LiPira]

I've found that Lady Justice needs a lot of soulstones for defense and triggers.

[LunarSol]

52 minutes ago, Tony LiPira said:

I've found that Lady Justice needs a lot of soulstones for defense and triggers.

I get they don't want her getting the extra attack without spending a stone, but Leap not being built in really hurts.  She's just a little subpar compared to other melee masters in terms of raw stats and the Marshal keyword lacks a coherent mechanic to make the models feel like their more than the some of their parts.  She's pretty good, and way better than she was for most of M2E, but at the very least, could REALLY use a way to deal with Terrifying.