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English Ivan (Umbra/DUA Keywords) Discussion


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3 hours ago, Adran said:

Thats my point, just from the other side, I think we are agreeing in reality. 

Ivan's attack drains resources if you want to deny the summons, but it also potentially drains resources to happen. Yes, if you have a 13 in hand and are wanting to attack a WP 6 or lower model then you will get your summons (baring a joker). If you are only attacking a wp 5 model then you probably only need a 12 but you can't get brocken then. 

If Ivan has spent a stone on the attack and reduced his :+flipto gain a crow, then I expect him to want to try and summon. If I can cheat my highest card and win that duel, then I have cost him resources for little effect. If he hasn't spent the stone, then I expect him to have a decent :crowin hand, and I make a different set of choices if I am cheating first. I may well not use my best card, but rather a decent moderate, and just hope that the :crowin hand isn't that high, or I may just accept that this turn its probably not worth trying to deny it, because I can't force the resource loss. 

I think a turn in which Ivan fails to summon is probably a bad turn for Ivan. As such I'm prepared to spend my resources on that much more than I might be to try and stop Kirai summoning (because that's not in my control as an opponent) for example. Where as I can try and control Ivans summoning 2 ways. I can try and deny him those positive flips (possibly hard, but if I have ways to remove destructible terrain or enemy conditions I have a chance) as well as try and win the duels that matter. 

EDIT - I guess some of it comes down to the Ivan player and how low a number do they feel safe with. If they are only prepared to spend the stone if they have a 13 vs a wp 6 model, then yes, you aren't realistically going to deny them the summons. but if they will do it for 11s and 12s as well, then you can try and deny it. 

 

I almost always spend :+flipon :crow, because the first trigger is also very good

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I don't think that was the assumption. More likely you have equal cards in hand, and equal flips and aren't in Gibsons Aura.  And whilst that isn't really realistic, it at least gives a an idea of a l

A gentleman will walk but never run.

Welcome to the party, Shin!

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11 minutes ago, Daniel Walker said:

I almost always spend :+flipon :crow, because the first trigger is also very good

I expect everyone probably does. That was why I only talked about getting the second crow, I assumed that everyone managed to gain at least 1 positive to get the first crow. 

Although I do also think that working on ways to try and deny that positive is a valid approach, so Serene Countenance, removal of His distracted, and removal of the Shadow markers can all be ways to slow him down, depending on exactly how he is getting them. If his first action has to be Black soulstone to get a shadow marker out for the concealed, then you've already cut him down to 2 attempts, and if he is relying on his own distracted condition, then each failed attempt is using up that condition. That might not matter much if you have a good way to re distract him, but its still a resource. 

 

(And thanks to Rufus for the reminder, but I'm fairly sure that Daniel, Myself and Scoffer are playing it the right way, so the discussion points are valid)

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22 minutes ago, Adran said:

I expect everyone probably does. That was why I only talked about getting the second crow, I assumed that everyone managed to gain at least 1 positive to get the first crow. 

Although I do also think that working on ways to try and deny that positive is a valid approach, so Serene Countenance, removal of His distracted, and removal of the Shadow markers can all be ways to slow him down, depending on exactly how he is getting them. If his first action has to be Black soulstone to get a shadow marker out for the concealed, then you've already cut him down to 2 attempts, and if he is relying on his own distracted condition, then each failed attempt is using up that condition. That might not matter much if you have a good way to re distract him, but its still a resource. 

 

(And thanks to Rufus for the reminder, but I'm fairly sure that Daniel, Myself and Scoffer are playing it the right way, so the discussion points are valid)

one funny tech to get shadow is just to use :ToS-Fast: drop marker and then place on it)

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Dedicating so many cards to preventing Ivan's summons is risky though. With his 3 AP you're unlikely to succeed (at worst Ivan can usually switch to targeting a <5WP model with his last AP and force a Nocturne), but might be left with a small hand and can no longer target Rook or Eva, and are susceptible to Execute, Pressure, Firefly, etc

I think this is more likely the reverse case, actually. Personally I'd want to activate Ivan as late as possible every turn. This lets him have his activation ready to correct his position if he gets pushed, hopefully gives the summon last activation, and gives his crew a chance to drain your hand. Will you be holding 2-3 severes that long? What if he attacks <6 WP models, dealing 3 and staggered to each and pushing his Daeva through anyway?

I'm sure giving him a hard time when it comes to his summon is a good idea, but don't expect that to be an easy answer to beating him

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On an unrelated note, what do you guys think about Hopeful Prospects and Operatives?

Operatives are fairly cheap, get Ambush, can remove scheme markers, drop shadows, are essentially ruthless, and attack enemies engaged with Umbra models with a free Double Plus if not Triple. Ivan, Rook, or Austera can also set them up for drawing 2 cards on those attacks whether they succeed or fail. But at 5 health they're in one-shot territory to a focused severe before using a single PoP.

Hopefuls are one stone less, let you cycle a card, can do a little healing, remove conditions, have a 14" gun, are most importantly H2K, can become Brocken or Daeva, and can pass free focus to Ivan when he scores a kill, but come with a lot of anti-synergies. Their heal and condition removal requires removing all conditions, which takes away Focus and Distracted. They're slow, so might have trouble keeping close to Ivan always. If transforming into Brocken/Daeva not near enemies they're sluggish so Operative/Nocturne might be more common. And they don't have UAffairs, so they can't shoot softened targets if Ivan's summons are engaged with them (the most common location of softened targets) and Gibson has to be careful with his Firefly (although they can remove their own Distracted if they don't have Focused). Also, taking Ivan w/ FlushWCash, Effigy w/ FateUpgrade, and 1-2 Prospects makes me feel like I'm building a house of cards, or investing my life savings into Bitcoin.

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Well, my original point was making it hard for Ivan. For example what if Ivan has to move across the table to hit a WP 7 model and his highest card in hand is an 11? Does he even bother with the one or two attacks?

Depends on terrain of course.  If you're playing with lots of dense or blocking terrain that can get tricky for him, but not if your forests are so big he can easily stand in then and see really far.

EDIT: I do hope to play against him soon, though!

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3 hours ago, Whut said:

Hopefuls are one stone less, let you cycle a card, can do a little healing, remove conditions, have a 14" gun, are most importantly H2K, can become Brocken or Daeva, and can pass free focus to Ivan when he scores a kill, but come with a lot of anti-synergies. Their heal and condition removal requires removing all conditions, which takes away Focus and Distracted. They're slow, so might have trouble keeping close to Ivan always. If transforming into Brocken/Daeva not near enemies they're sluggish so Operative/Nocturne might be more common. And they don't have UAffairs, so they can't shoot softened targets if Ivan's summons are engaged with them (the most common location of softened targets) and Gibson has to be careful with his Firefly (although they can remove their own Distracted if they don't have Focused). Also, taking Ivan w/ FlushWCash, Effigy w/ FateUpgrade, and 1-2 Prospects makes me feel like I'm building a house of cards, or investing my life savings into Bitcoin.

In our meta if you see model that cost 5 or less you never take it unless it's a combo piece, because most player use very impactfull beaters that can one-shot such minion easily. And in my opinion, Prospects may be not very bad, but Nocturnes are horrible and I strongly recommend not to summon them ever, unless they can bring you VP just after summoning.

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3 hours ago, Whut said:

On an unrelated note, what do you guys think about Hopeful Prospects and Operatives?

Operatives are fairly cheap, get Ambush, can remove scheme markers, drop shadows, are essentially ruthless, and attack enemies engaged with Umbra models with a free Double Plus if not Triple. Ivan, Rook, or Austera can also set them up for drawing 2 cards on those attacks whether they succeed or fail. But at 5 health they're in one-shot territory to a focused severe before using a single PoP.

Hopefuls are one stone less, let you cycle a card, can do a little healing, remove conditions, have a 14" gun, are most importantly H2K, can become Brocken or Daeva, and can pass free focus to Ivan when he scores a kill, but come with a lot of anti-synergies. Their heal and condition removal requires removing all conditions, which takes away Focus and Distracted. They're slow, so might have trouble keeping close to Ivan always. If transforming into Brocken/Daeva not near enemies they're sluggish so Operative/Nocturne might be more common. And they don't have UAffairs, so they can't shoot softened targets if Ivan's summons are engaged with them (the most common location of softened targets) and Gibson has to be careful with his Firefly (although they can remove their own Distracted if they don't have Focused). Also, taking Ivan w/ FlushWCash, Effigy w/ FateUpgrade, and 1-2 Prospects makes me feel like I'm building a house of cards, or investing my life savings into Bitcoin.

One thing to note about Hopefuls is that it makes a huge difference what you are expecting your opponent to field. Does your opponent run Frontiersman, so the Hopeful Prospect can one shot them? Then great.

Is your opponent Titania, with a bunch of hard to wound, armor, severe shut down, and other things that stop the one-shots? Probably not good against her.

In general you're probably only wanting the Hopeful Prospect when it can kill something reasonably early on with its rifle to replace, or if you're making use of the base abilities of the model (for example, it comboes really well with Cooper because Good Show lets Cooper reload on focus easily).

Note: I haven't played ES, just theoryfaux.

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32 minutes ago, Daniel Walker said:

In our meta if you see model that cost 5 or less you never take it unless it's a combo piece, because most player use very impactfull beaters that can one-shot such minion easily. And in my opinion, Prospects may be not very bad, but Nocturnes are horrible and I strongly recommend not to summon them ever, unless they can bring you VP just after summoning.

Wait, why are Nocturnes horrible? They're 5 Health sure, but still Df6 with permanent concealment, and when targeting near shadow markers get auto-plus to duel and damage, arguably hitting harder than a baseline Daeva. They can push allies or enemies on a 6 with a plus flip giving distracted and with two decent triggers, and they're Walk6 Unimpeded so they can walk away and threaten or fake schemes to throw your opponent off. If Ivan gains more by killing a WP4 model and getting a Nocturne in the process than by targeting a WP5+ model specifically for summoning, it's not bad. At worst the Nocture eats a focused attack and severe, which is still 2AP and a good card.

I'm thinking of including one in my normal list - they can move Ivan into his marker nest if moved away, give DUA Distracted so you aren't relying only on Gibson, move those DUA models which helps with their 8" ranges or Rook's 0" melee, drop Shadow Markers to protect Ivan or give DUA Concealment or for Ivan to jump to, and keep himself in range without ever taking a Move action and typically never using hand cards. He's never going to be the star of the show, but as a backup to Gibson supporting the crew? I don't think it's "horrible"

Oh, and I think Explorers just have a better time taking low cost models because of the Flush with Cash upgrade.

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4 minutes ago, Whut said:

Wait, why are Nocturnes horrible? They're 5 Health sure, but still Df6 with permanent concealment, and when targeting near shadow markers get auto-plus to duel and damage, arguably hitting harder than a baseline Daeva. They can push allies or enemies on a 6 with a plus flip giving distracted and with two decent triggers, and they're Walk6 Unimpeded so they can walk away and threaten or fake schemes to throw your opponent off. If Ivan gains more by killing a WP4 model and getting a Nocturne in the process than by targeting a WP5+ model specifically for summoning, it's not bad. At worst the Nocture eats a focused attack and severe, which is still 2AP and a good card.

I'm thinking of including one in my normal list - they can move Ivan into his marker nest if moved away, give DUA Distracted so you aren't relying only on Gibson, move those DUA models which helps with their 8" ranges or Rook's 0" melee, drop Shadow Markers to protect Ivan or give DUA Concealment or for Ivan to jump to, and keep himself in range without ever taking a Move action and typically never using hand cards. He's never going to be the star of the show, but as a backup to Gibson supporting the crew? I don't think it's "horrible"

It is meta dependent, but as a general rule models like that you need to be okay with them dying or they need to be useful when far from the action (for example, my 3-Belle list, I am expecting 1 or 2 of them to die).

If you put a model like a Nocturne near the action, here's some common ways I would kill it in a single activation:

  • Focused Reva with Double postitive flip will kill it in 1-2 hits from ~18 inches away
  • Archie can swing twice to kill it (with flurry that's effectively one ap)
  • Seamus one shots it with ease.
  • Dead Rider one-shots it with focus and a superior card.
  • A million ways to abuse its 3 willpower.
  • Etc.

Generally you're not saving your high cards to cheat to protect the Nocturne (because it is only worth 5 stones), but it is potentially worth me saving a card or two to take it down.

Which again, is fine if your game plan includes having it playing a distraction role, and death is part of its role.

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9 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It is meta dependent, but as a general rule models like that you need to be okay with them dying or they need to be useful when far from the action (for example, my 3-Belle list, I am expecting 1 or 2 of them to die).

If you put a model like a Nocturne near the action, here's some common ways I would kill it in a single activation:

  • Focused Reva with Double postitive flip will kill it in 1-2 hits from ~18 inches away
  • Archie can swing twice to kill it (with flurry that's effectively one ap)
  • Seamus one shots it with ease.
  • Dead Rider one-shots it with focus and a superior card.
  • A million ways to abuse its 3 willpower.
  • Etc.

Generally you're not saving your high cards to cheat to protect the Nocturne (because it is only worth 5 stones), but it is potentially worth me saving a card or two to take it down.

Which again, is fine if your game plan includes having it playing a distraction role, and death is part of its role.

Sure he'll die, but my Master has 3x min3+stagger attacks usually on plus flips (as in, the summon is not kinda the only crucial thing he does like Kirai). So if he uses 1AP to deal 2 damage, possibly generate 2 more attacks (if it gets to Activate), later drop a shadow marker and possibly give you a SS, and effectively...

  • Remove a Focus from Reva and give her slow or double slow
  • Give Archie slow, make him discard a card, and remove Flurry next activation
  • Remove one focus and one of Seamus' two 4/6/8 shots
  • Remove a focus and give slow to Dead Rider
  • Eat one or several AP from some other models which do stuff to its WP

Am I supposed to think that's "Horrible"?

And as far as taking it in crews, if it gets to Activate Turn 1, push some stuff, maybe drop a shadow marker, and then eats 5+ damage from an enemy and refund me a SS? I'm happy with that, cause that 5 damage didn't go into Ivan or Effigy w/ Fate Upgrade who will be generating me WAY more than 5 stones of value during the remainder of the game

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12 minutes ago, Maogrim said:

Just a quick question: Are crews that rely on or incidentally spread a lot of Distracted, like Colette or Qi & Gong basically screwed when facing Ivan? 

Indiscriminate distracted will be a problem, but Umbra models don't gain a benefit from it, only DUA. So not as much of a problem for Qi&Gong, but the self stacking distracted will help Kunoichi getting the +2 damage from Unexpected Ferocity.

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2 hours ago, Maogrim said:

Just a quick question: Are crews that rely on or incidentally spread a lot of Distracted, like Colette or Qi & Gong basically screwed when facing Ivan? 

They probably need to face he game differently. I don't think it's automatically a loss but you do need to be careful what you distract. On the upside if you were using that distracting for anything, then your opponent may do half the work for you...

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I just realized that you can sit Ivan in concealing terrain and attacking from 10" away with stat 6 and a built-in :crow, which automatically gives him a damage track of 3/4/5 (the model he attacks will always have concealment), while attacking him will become an uphill battle since he will have Concealment.

Add to that the possibility of a 8ss summon with little investment... He's going right to the top 3 of masters no doubts :P

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40 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

I just realized that you can sit Ivan in concealing terrain and attacking from 10" away with stat 6 and a built-in :crow, which automatically gives him a damage track of 3/4/5 (the model he attacks will always have concealment), while attacking him will become an uphill battle since he will have Concealment.

Add to that the possibility of a 8ss summon with little investment... He's going right to the top 3 of masters no doubts :P

Not to mention hitting him can be reduced to 0 with shadow markers!

Will have to do something like Reap him out of position.

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12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Not to mention hitting him can be reduced to 0 with shadow markers!

Will have to do something like Reap him out of position.

Its possibly worth remembering that instead of hitting him, you can destroy terrain markers for an action. If the attack is only going to do damage, then you removing the marker gives you more choice. Obviously the worse the attack you give up to remove this, the better...

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19 minutes ago, Adran said:

Its possibly worth remembering that instead of hitting him, you can destroy terrain markers for an action. If the attack is only going to do damage, then you removing the marker gives you more choice. Obviously the worse the attack you give up to remove this, the better...

True, good point, forgot you can do it while engaged!

And of course marker removal is going to be useful here.

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On 1/14/2021 at 1:52 AM, santaclaws01 said:

Really depends on the crew on if you can avoid taking wp 6 models.

And it's not like Deva are worthless... A lot of crew have ar least a master or a totem with WP 6. Than I don't know if it worth making your crew worst by eschewing key pieces just to denied 8 stone summon (those spectres are really good though... some would say that they're really brocken).

 

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Here's the list I'm taking against Ivan on Monday for the third round of New Year's Retribution (vassal series)

  • Molly & Machine
  • Dead Rider
  • Archie
  • Yin
  • Nurse
  • Crooligan
  • Crooligan

So Molly (Serene Countenance) and Dead Rider (WP 7) are the only Brocken options, which feels pretty good. I ended up not even tailoring my list to facing Ivan (since I wasn't sure I could play the tech pieces well).

So I think it'll be relatively easy to build lists where he at least has to jump through hoops to summon Brocken. Will see how I feel after, though xD

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