English Ivan (Umbra/DUA Keywords) Discussion

[Korrok]

So a question came up within my locals today. If Gibson drops his firefly on friends, can they chose to not flip and just take the effects? Like a relent? 

[Whut]

1 hour ago, Korrok said:

So a question came up within my locals today. If Gibson drops his firefly on friends, can they chose to not flip and just take the effects? Like a relent? 

No. You can't relent simple duels, unfortunately 

[Daniel Walker]

On 12/8/2020 at 11:09 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Anna, Manos, and Vincent (one shots summons) are all common tech picks in Ressers. So that might just be a bad matchup and the solution might be to not bring summoner Ivan against Ressers (or at least, bring a flexible list if you bring him at all).

Would be funny to take an Ivan list where they take Vincent and Anna, and then you put zero emphasis on summoning 😜

Yesterday played Ivan vs Yan Lo. Anna is useless against Ivan if you have at least one model on 40mm. I just wreck Yan Lo on turn 3 and killed everything on the table without any casualties. And “you can’t heal” from specter destroys regen/demises healing abilities which are only way for ressers to stay alive

[ShinChan]

16 minutes ago, Daniel Walker said:

Yesterday played Ivan vs Yan Lo. Anna is useless against Ivan if you have at least one model on 40mm. I just wreck Yan Lo on turn 3 and killed everything on the table without any casualties. And “you can’t heal” from specter destroys regen/demises healing abilities which are only way for ressers to stay alive

Broken Spectres are better Ikyrios and you can have 2 in the middle of your crew in turn 2.

I'm still shocked on how this crew went through playtesting like this... 

[Maniacal_cackle]

33 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Broken Spectres are better Ikyrios and you can have 2 in the middle of your crew in turn 2.

I'm still shocked on how this crew went through playtesting like this... 

They're good, no doubt, but what makes Ikiryo special is that you can summon 16 stones of models in one turn when you use her. So I'm dubious of the 'better than Ikiryo' claim.

You also generally want to do that summon against a precisely wp6 model, which can be tricky if your opponent doesn't want it to happen. 7 Wp is a bit too high to guarantee you get it.

[ShinChan]

5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

They're good, no doubt, but what makes Ikiryo special is that you can summon 16 stones of models in one turn when you use her. So I'm dubious of the 'better than Ikiryo' claim.

You also generally want to do that summon against a precisely wp6 model, which can be tricky if your opponent doesn't want it to happen. 7 Wp is a bit too high to guarantee you get it.

Df6, Wp5, Terrifying 11, trigger in Wp and Df to give Distracted, withering away and they're always in concealment. 

They put Staggered, they move models around, they heal themselves in multiple ways, they generate new shadow markers and multiple places and pushes, for them and for the enemies. Instead of being close to your master and need to get into position, they're already in position.

They're definitely better than Ikiryo.

It's not tricky to summon out of a Wp6 model when you just don't get affected by distracted or concealing, but benefit from it. It's not going to be difficult for Ivan to go with 1-3  to the attack and even if he fails the first one, he can try another 2 times. Also, a tie is a always a win for the attacker, so he has the odds on his favor.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Df6, Wp5, Terrifying 11, trigger in Wp and Df to give Distracted, withering away and they're always in concealment. 

They put Staggered, they move models around, they heal themselves in multiple ways, they generate new shadow markers and multiple places and pushes, for them and for the enemies. Instead of being close to your master and need to get into position, they're already in position.

They're definitely better than Ikiryo.

Well, none of that addresses my point (that you can double summon Ikiryo). So is a Spectre better than Ikiryo + another summon? Probably not.

7 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

It's not tricky to summon out of a Wp6 model

It is if your opponent doesn't take any/much WP6 models.

For example, if I took some combination of:

• Molly & Machine
• Kirai
• Vincent
• Dead Rider
• wp 4 and 5 models

You don't have a lot of good Brocken summon options unless you have tons of card draw to guarantee a higher card than me (although I guess the crew has Tools for the Job, which seems a bit broken in a summoning crew).

I haven't played with/against the crew yet, definitely keen to see how it goes!

[ShinChan]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, none of that addresses my point (that you can double summon Ikiryo). So is a Spectre better than Ikiryo + another summon? Probably not.

It is if your opponent doesn't take any/much WP6 models.

For example, if I took some combination of:

• Molly & Machine
• Kirai
• Vincent
• Dead Rider
• wp 4 and 5 models

You don't have a lot of good Brocken summon options unless you have tons of card draw to guarantee a higher card than me (although I guess the crew has Tools for the Job, which seems a bit broken in a summoning crew).

I haven't played with/against the crew yet, definitely keen to see how it goes!

Is a Brocken Specter better than Ikiryo? Definitely. Is Ivan a better summoner than Kirai? Both are strong summoners, I prefer Ivan in general, but maybe, summoning-wise, Kirai can feel stronger if your opponent kills Ikiryo without a plan.

If we're playing the double master game, I can just add Jedza to the mix and draw more than you

Going for 4-5 Wp models? Daevas are still a bargain for their cost.

I did actually played with and against Ivan. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

19 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Is a Brocken Specter better than Ikiryo? Definitely. Is Ivan a better summoner than Kirai? Both are strong summoners, I prefer Ivan in general, but maybe, summoning-wise, Kirai can feel stronger if your opponent kills Ikiryo without a plan.

Well, the double summon ability is on Ikiryo's card, and more to the point models are part of their broader context. So you can't just say that this crew is broken because Brocken is better than Ikiryo if you ignore Ikiryo's double summon ability.

21 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

If we're playing the double master game, I can just add Jedza to the mix and draw more than you

This is a minor point, but just have to point out Molly is a stronger card-drawer than Jedza. Lost knowledge + Gorgon's Influence (+ machine) means that I sometimes draw 8 cards in an activation with her if I'm really digging for the right cards. Unless I'm missing card draw on Jedza beyond Lost Knowldge.

Definitely feels like a powerful combo, though. Summoner + card draw master is always strong.

22 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

I did actually played with and against Ivan. 

Fair enough! Did you not raise these issues in playtesting then?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Gibson Dewalt does seem insane, though.

Blinded by the light means it will be WAY easier to land your summons, and Tools for the Job seems too strong to be in a summoning keyword. Then he has several useful ways to throw out distracted (sometimes with fast), a good bonus action with a phenomenal trigger...

How are people liking him?

[belorey]

47 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, none of that addresses my point (that you can double summon Ikiryo). So is a Spectre better than Ikiryo + another summon? Probably not.

It is if your opponent doesn't take any/much WP6 models.

For example, if I took some combination of:

• Molly & Machine
• Kirai
• Vincent
• Dead Rider
• wp 4 and 5 models

You don't have a lot of good Brocken summon options unless you have tons of card draw to guarantee a higher card than me (although I guess the crew has Tools for the Job, which seems a bit broken in a summoning crew).

I haven't played with/against the crew yet, definitely keen to see how it goes!

So you are going to play with low WP against a faction who has strong and high WP attacks betwen DUA and versatils? Ivan, Gibson, Corvis, Vernom & Welles or Tannenbaum would be happy with that option.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, belorey said:

So you are going to play with low WP against a faction who has strong and high WP attacks betwen DUA and versatils? Ivan, Gibson, Corvis, Vernom & Welles or Tannenbaum would be happy with that option.

Oh, 3 of the models I listed are WP7, and Molly is Wp 6 with Serene Countenance.

WP7 is dangerous, because if I have a higher card than you for cheating, the attack is going to miss AND you'll have spent a distracted + soulstone.

Thus the discussion on card draw.

That's assuming I can cheat and am outside Gibson's bubble, of course!

[belorey]

6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, 3 of the models I listed are WP7, and Molly is Wp 6 with Serene Countenance.

WP7 is dangerous, because if I have a higher card than you for cheating, the attack is going to miss AND you'll have spent a distracted + soulstone.

Thus the discussion on card draw.

That's assuming I can cheat and am outside Gibson's bubble, of course!

Thats seems a bit dificult, so you assume that you would have better cards in hand, better flips 3 times and you will be out of Gibson's aura.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, belorey said:

Thats seems a bit dificult, so you assume that you would have better cards in hand, better flips 3 times and you will be out of Gibson's aura.

Well, more of I can make you work for it. If you spend three master actions to summon, getting an 8-cost model (that I can one-shot) is a pretty reasonable outcome.

[belorey]

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, more of I can make you work for it. If you spend three master actions to summon, getting an 8-cost model (that I can one-shot) is a pretty reasonable outcome.

Again, thats theoryfaux, i can have better card on first attack and summon the Specter.

The thing is that Ivan has 3 chances to summon the Broken Specter (without slow and B2B with you) after you take 2/3/4 damage. For me is a win-win.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well, looking forward to the tournament next month and seeing how well all these masters do!

[karukame]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, looking forward to the tournament next month and seeing how well all these masters do!

Actually there was one tournament in Russia with Ivan and Cadmus. Daniel Walker made some proxys through heroforge and finished on the first place. There was like 12 players, and some of them were really good, like top10 of russian community. Here is his thread with report about 'giant wooden spoon' tournament in Ulyanovsk. 

 

 

[Adran]

8 hours ago, belorey said:

Thats seems a bit dificult, so you assume that you would have better cards in hand, better flips 3 times and you will be out of Gibson's aura.

 

8 hours ago, belorey said:

Again, thats theoryfaux, i can have better card on first attack and summon the Specter.

The thing is that Ivan has 3 chances to summon the Broken Specter (without slow and B2B with you) after you take 2/3/4 damage. For me is a win-win.

I don't think that was the assumption. More likely you have equal cards in hand, and equal flips and aren't in Gibsons Aura.  And whilst that isn't really realistic, it at least gives a an idea of a likely outcome

Ivan Still has to commit resources to each attempt to get 2 .  Granted its likely that he can get 1 for free from  flip being replaced, but unless you have that high Crow in hand you are risking a soulstone each time, or hoping that your mid crow is enough to win after cheating.

I expect Ivan to be able to summon most turns, and its fairly likely he will be able to get a Brocken if he really wants, but unless he is holding the 13or the red joker, it is likely to be costing him resources every turn. 

The rest of the discussion appears to be cross talking. If you only had 1 model on the table, the Brocken might be better than Ikiryu, but a lot of the power of Ikiryu as a summon is the ability for it to not count as your summon.  

I expect to see strong showings from new masters for a few months because it is always easier to learn how to use them than it is to learn how to face them. 

[Daniel Walker]

There are one funny thing in playing Ivan against Kriai and Ikiriyo. You don’t need to summon specters, you just need to summon Daeva, copy Ikiriyo’s action and kill everything)

[Daniel Walker]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

 

I don't think that was the assumption. More likely you have equal cards in hand, and equal flips and aren't in Gibsons Aura.  And whilst that isn't really realistic, it at least gives a an idea of a likely outcome

Ivan Still has to commit resources to each attempt to get 2 .  Granted its likely that he can get 1 for free from  flip being replaced, but unless you have that high Crow in hand you are risking a soulstone each time, or hoping that your mid crow is enough to win after cheating.

I expect Ivan to be able to summon most turns, and its fairly likely he will be able to get a Brocken if he really wants, but unless he is holding the 13or the red joker, it is likely to be costing him resources every turn. 

The rest of the discussion appears to be cross talking. If you only had 1 model on the table, the Brocken might be better than Ikiryu, but a lot of the power of Ikiryu as a summon is the ability for it to not count as your summon.  

I expect to see strong showings from new masters for a few months because it is always easier to learn how to use them than it is to learn how to face them. 

As I found, Ivan’s crew, as I play him, don’t really need resources. I start with 7 stones and can afford to spend 4-5 on  if I really need them, but in tuned set up Ivan always has a least  and on very flip he needs to summon

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Daniel Walker said:

As I found, Ivan’s crew, as I play him, don’t really need resources. I starts with 7 stones and can afford to spend 4-5 on  if I really need them, but in tuned set up Ivan always has a least  and on very flip he needs to summon

It may be that Ivan has little use for stones other than summoning. But if you are hoping to summon and don't have a high crow, you are going to have to spend a stone on each attack until you succeed, or hope that with the multiple cards you flip, you get a good enough crow. 

Its probably worth it spending those stones to get the summons, but if I make you spend 5 stones over the course of the game on failed attempts to summon, that's effectively a Nocturn down each game. 

I may value my cards differently to a lot of people in general, and I haven't yet faced Ivan, but my initial plan is to save my good cards to try and deny the summons. I don't know if that will work, but the theory is sound, and if it does work  I imagine it will become a play answer to Ivan. It won't stop all the summons, but if it costs an extra soulstone and action a turn for Ivan on average, then it may well slow him down enough. 

[Scoffer]

8 minutes ago, Adran said:

It may be that Ivan has little use for stones other than summoning. But if you are hoping to summon and don't have a high crow, you are going to have to spend a stone on each attack until you succeed, or hope that with the multiple cards you flip, you get a good enough crow. 

You don't need to spend a stone on each attack. If you have any 13 in hand, it's almost guaranteed summon (unless you attack something rare with WP 7+). 

And what's even more important - Ivan's attack drains opponent's resources. When any other model wins an attack duel with a moderate flip it's ok to say "Fine, you can deal damage with a single negative" and save high cards for something more important or cheat a little higher to make attacker waste a card too. When it's Ivan, you have to cheat as high as possible, because Ivan can have a moderate crow in hand.

 

[Adran]

20 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

You don't need to spend a stone on each attack. If you have any 13 in hand, it's almost guaranteed summon (unless you attack something rare with WP 7+). 

And what's even more important - Ivan's attack drains opponent's resources. When any other model wins an attack duel with a moderate flip it's ok to say "Fine, you can deal damage with a single negative" and save high cards for something more important or cheat a little higher to make attacker waste a card too. When it's Ivan, you have to cheat as high as possible, because Ivan can have a moderate crow in hand.

 

Thats my point, just from the other side, I think we are agreeing in reality. 

Ivan's attack drains resources if you want to deny the summons, but it also potentially drains resources to happen. Yes, if you have a 13 in hand and are wanting to attack a WP 6 or lower model then you will get your summons (baring a joker). If you are only attacking a wp 5 model then you probably only need a 12 but you can't get brocken then. 

If Ivan has spent a stone on the attack and reduced his to gain a crow, then I expect him to want to try and summon. If I can cheat my highest card and win that duel, then I have cost him resources for little effect. If he hasn't spent the stone, then I expect him to have a decent in hand, and I make a different set of choices if I am cheating first. I may well not use my best card, but rather a decent moderate, and just hope that the in hand isn't that high, or I may just accept that this turn its probably not worth trying to deny it, because I can't force the resource loss. 

I think a turn in which Ivan fails to summon is probably a bad turn for Ivan. As such I'm prepared to spend my resources on that much more than I might be to try and stop Kirai summoning (because that's not in my control as an opponent) for example. Where as I can try and control Ivans summoning 2 ways. I can try and deny him those positive flips (possibly hard, but if I have ways to remove destructible terrain or enemy conditions I have a chance) as well as try and win the duels that matter. 

EDIT - I guess some of it comes down to the Ivan player and how low a number do they feel safe with. If they are only prepared to spend the stone if they have a 13 vs a wp 6 model, then yes, you aren't realistically going to deny them the summons. but if they will do it for 11s and 12s as well, then you can try and deny it. 

 

[Rufess]

4 hours ago, Daniel Walker said:

As I found, Ivan’s crew, as I play him, don’t really need resources. I start with 7 stones and can afford to spend 4-5 on  if I really need them, but in tuned set up Ivan always has a least  and on very flip he needs to summon

3 hours ago, Scoffer said:

You don't need to spend a stone on each attack. If you have any 13 in hand, it's almost guaranteed summon (unless you attack something rare with WP 7+). 

Just to ensure everyone is on the same page, Ivan can only transfer a single  to  in every attack. So he always needs a stone or a suited card for the 2nd  for the summoning trigger.

Another add, not quite relating though, is that Ivan cannot summon from a killed target. So the health is also a condition when choosing target while summoning.

[Daniel Walker]

29 minutes ago, Rufess said:

Just to ensure everyone is on the same page, Ivan can only transfer a single  to  in every attack. So he always needs a stone or a suited card for the 2nd  for the summoning trigger.

Another add, not quite relating though, is that Ivan cannot summon from a killed target. So the health is also a condition when choosing target while summoning.

This obviously follows from the rules written in the rollbook and on the card)