Convince me that Bad Juju isn't a turd

[ezramantis]

I love Bad Juju. I love the model. I love the idea of the swamp come alive. I use it whenever I play Zoraida no matter how bad the community says Bad Juju is cause I love the big, mushy,  mossy lugg. In M2E I had a good handle on it because I always took the upgrade that summoned Juju when a swampfiend died and dared people to kill my fiends. Fun.

I'll admit I haven't had an opportunity to play much M3E. But felt Juju's big attack, mixed with Regeneration, Hard to Wound, and Demise (eternal) was decent and playable. Tricky with the 3 def, but playable.

Then I played vs a crew with Montressor.

That bugger costs the same as Juju, also has Demise (eternal) and Hard to Wound. Plus he has Terrifying (11), an additional hp, and double the defense of Juju at 6. For the same cost (9ss).

Add to that a reasonable ranged attack, the built in triggers on Montressors attacks, an execute trigger, and a bonus action that doesn't suck (I'm sorry, I'm trying to be positive about Ambush but having to toss a card for 3" of movement if you aren't in severe terrain?  phlllbt) and now i look at Juju next to him and...it just makes me sad.  How are these two models are equal? Sure Jujy has that sweet 3/4/6 damage but still.

Make me happy about Bad Juju. I want to be happy about my swamp monster daggit!

 

[Passenty]

He is not too good unfortunatly - def 3 really hurts, no Terrifying must be a misprint:P I still think he is a must for zoraida because of sz4 - perfect node for her.

[Adran]

I think you undervalued ambush. Sure, you might not use it every turn, but it gives juju the chance to hit something15" away. 2"melee and minimum3 damage is good, as is giving stunned. 

It's easy to get juju to 0 wounds, but it's healing is such that you then discard a card to demise eternal, and then potentially heal another 3 damage when you activate!

Stunned is also very useful. 

 

[Fixxer]

Bad Juju is a phenomenal model in a Zoraida crew IMO and experience.

Ambush doesnt require a card if you are in severe terrain and with Planted roots (3 abilities in one) he is unaffected by Severe terrain so can push through without issue. Multiple models that can be hired into a Zoraida crew start the game with severe terrain markers that can be deployed under JUJU for early ambush and some ground covered.

With the burnout trigger on an obey I typically focus and get fast on turn one.  Regen clears the damage.  Nobody will come into range of an ambush charge, let alone an ambush walk, charge, on a stat 6 2" reach model with 3/4/6 focus and fast. If you get someone in that Bad Juju can murder them or hold them down because 2" reach is fantastic in this game. 

Focused attention and Quicksand are insanely good triggers and with stones you can ensure you get them in the right circumstances and pressure your opponent or punish them for bunching up. 

When you live the dream with Juju it starts at the beginning of turn 2 or 3 when you have juju within 12 of zoraida and able to get in or be in combat. At that point you are looking for Hexing the enemy with either trigger depending on what Juju's status is. Two Hexes with possible coordinated attacks and one obey into Juju means an enemy model is in big trouble and thats without Juju even activating. That gives your opponent one activation to finish Juju off before he just goes again with his own activation, in addition they cant just lure him away or place him away, he has planted roots. Dude is a monster and even with Df3 he can be a real PIA for his threat range and action sink to take him down. 

I think he's good as a body guard for Z in games with Assassinate or catch and release in the pool. He is good for holding the lodestone in corrupted leylines. Being 9ss he can punch up 10ss models with vendetta pretty easily, especially with an obey master. 

Montressor is good dont get me wrong. His damage track pales in comparison. He is slow, he doesnt have models giving him extra actions. Doesnt ignore severe terrain, can be moved by enemy models.  He's a pure tarpit with ping damage which works in his KW which is oppressive for sure.  

 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I found Juju very annoying to deal with. It gets to take up to four actions + ambush if ensorcelled. So you can keep it somewhere safe, then towards the end of the turn move it 23" inches. Even my Archie had trouble pinning it down.

If you provide support fire with Angel Eyes or similar, them people can get punished hard for sitting there attacking it.

[santaclaws01]

Montressor is a tarpit that can deal a respectable amount of damage. Juju is a beater that has a respectable amount of survivability(in that he heals a lot), and also has easy access to extra actions in keyword. You can't just compare two different models in different keywords 1 to 1.

[Scoffer]

I think Juju needs too much babysitting to be a good option. It needs stones, it needs attention of your healers (bokors/serena) to stay alive, it needs at least one action of Zoraida most of time. And with all that resources spent it scores very little VP (

[Maniacal_cackle]

I wonder if people are pouring too many resources into keeping Juju alive.

Assuming no healing/regen, it will take 4-5 hits from min 3 beaters just to kill it (thanks to Hard to Wound). That's already an enormous drain on your opponent's resources.

Rather than pouring resources into Juju to delay its inevitable demise, try spending that time securing victory on the rest of the board.

Juju is destined for death. Serena is the one to take if you want an immortal claim jumper.

[ezramantis]

I'll tell ya guys, it was the Demise (eternal) that tipped me over the edge. I'd come to grips with my giant swamp monster not having terrifying anymore (was that M2E? M1E? Oh man I'm finally forgetting old stats), cause it had Demise (eternal). I accepted the abysmal defense that lets most attacks hit, often at higher than min damage, because of Demise (eternal). I'd adjusted to keeping focus on Jujy to shore up it's defense and recognized I may have to activate it before I want to to proc the regen.  Then in strolls Lurch with a huge defense, being terrifying all over the place, and makes my special little (ht 4) guy feel not so special. *pout*

Didn't help that it was out there playing in the swamp without mama (yup I took Juju into a henchman hardcore game. Go ahead, tell me I'm a fool. I'll do it again, by gum, cause I'm stubborn ). Made it really apparent how much Juju relies on mama to really shine.

So, @Fixxer what models you bringing that let Juju start in severe? I've got waldgeist (cause, ya know, tree monster) but since they create markers i have to walk models into them before they can ambush. It's doable, just not convenient. I often feel like I'm eating up AP and telegraphing my moves.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@ezramantis, it is concealing, not severe. So Grootslang, McTavish, etc.

 

[MrPieChee]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@ezramantis, it is concealing, not severe. So Grootslang, McTavish, etc.

 

Underbrush markers are both concealing and severe

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

Underbrush markers are both concealing and severe

For sure! But don't limit yourself to just those. Zoraida has access to a host of concealing markers.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, ezramantis said:

I'll tell ya guys, it was the Demise (eternal) that tipped me over the edge. I'd come to grips with my giant swamp monster not having terrifying anymore (was that M2E? M1E? Oh man I'm finally forgetting old stats), cause it had Demise (eternal). I accepted the abysmal defense that lets most attacks hit, often at higher than min damage, because of Demise (eternal). I'd adjusted to keeping focus on Jujy to shore up it's defense and recognized I may have to activate it before I want to to proc the regen.  Then in strolls Lurch with a huge defense, being terrifying all over the place, and makes my special little (ht 4) guy feel not so special. *pout*

Didn't help that it was out there playing in the swamp without mama (yup I took Juju into a henchman hardcore game. Go ahead, tell me I'm a fool. I'll do it again, by gum, cause I'm stubborn ). Made it really apparent how much Juju relies on mama to really shine.

So, @Fixxer what models you bringing that let Juju start in severe? I've got waldgeist (cause, ya know, tree monster) but since they create markers i have to walk models into them before they can ambush. It's doable, just not convenient. I often feel like I'm eating up AP and telegraphing my moves.

I think that df 3 hard to wound shouldn't suffer more straight damage flips than df 6 does  . I might be wrong, especially because it is largely based on player agency, so will vary from place to place. It will certainly suffer more damage flips, but if you flip a 5 on your df a stat 6 model needs a 13 to have a straight flip, where as they only need a 10 for the straight flip against a Df 6 model (I know Montressor has hard to wound as well, so you're very unlikely to get straight flips against him, but by  default a low Df and hard to wound shouldn't have more straight flips than a good Df)

Yes, having to preselect spots for the severe concealing terrain does sort of signpost your ideal turn if you only have 1. You need to be prepared for a plan B, and in fact can use the markers to bluff one plan when you really expect to do another. If the board you play with has no concealing or severe terrain on it naturally, then you might find it hard to get the free move, but a lot of the time you will get "spare" cards that you don't mind discarding, as long as you don't have too many discard effects in your crew. I think I'm more focussed on trying to end in severe for the heal next activation than I am on being in Concealing at the right time, but a well placed Lair or undergrowth marker can allow both if you're just doing movement, stick it so it is just going to be reached by Juju after 10" movement, then when he pushes he will push across it, but still leave the back of him in the terrain.

The two models serve very different roles, so if you're using Juju for what he is good at, then Montressor would not work as a replacement. (although since you can't pick between the two, sometimes even making bad juju act as a bad montressor if good for you if that's what you need at the time).  To me Bad Juju's job is to go and give the opponent  a problem. I don't expect him to last the whole game, but the amount of resources needed to kill him should be high. There are very few models out there that are going to kill him one on one consistently. They need some help from outside sources, or some luck. (That Luck/outside influence might be as simple as being able to sort initiative so you get back to back activations of your model across turns, or getting lucky hits at the right time. )

Part of the power of Juju is that he has a lot of his power tied up into his attack, so models such as Zoraida, that allow him extra actions get more use out of Juju, than they might a slightly more "balanced" model set up. So use of him without Zoraida is not going to be his best, but conversely, in hardcore he can probably shrug off the attacks of 2 or 3 of the opponents models for a few turns if you get it right.

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, ezramantis said:

So, @Fixxer what models you bringing that let Juju start in severe? I've got waldgeist (cause, ya know, tree monster) but since they create markers i have to walk models into them before they can ambush. It's doable, just not convenient. I often feel like I'm eating up AP and telegraphing my moves.

An OOK option to consider is WW; she is already good with Zoraida by letting her summon Stitcheds/Wicked dolls from the totem (even tho the stitcheds had lost some punch since GG1, they are still good imo) and both spiders are the only ones in the faction able to drop severe markers (without counting the emisary's  tho). Web markers aren't concealing, but the severe let him heal 1 extra and could make harder to reach him.

For any other kind of Severe or Concealing marker, the only way to do it efficiently is planning beforehand where you want to move it and putting that marker in the path of the model / use any kind of push.

Also if you enjoy hitting your own models, there is a little trick you may try the first turn if you get the right cards. Waldgeists have a Heave trigger, you may charge forward, attack him (relenting) and cheat a low ram; that will let you place Juju in an underbrush (and also move him a bit more of 7''), it'll also damage him 2 (3 is rare having also H2W, but even in that case the extra healing from the underbrush will heal it to full). If you don't expect agression the first turn and plan to use the burnt out trigger with other model, it's something to consider.

[Ceodoc]

Like a lot of arguments for our 'same' cost models not performing like for like. The theory is that you can combine with X model or X trick to make them shine, invariably this means SS spent in selection or rss used in play.

"Bad JuJu is brilliant, just bring Grootslang to give him that severe terrain"!

NB does have great combos, not going to deny, but it feels like we have to search for the rainbow when other factions just insert X model and it does what it says on the the tin.

One great new Versatile model is what we NB need. Outside Serena/Dopple meh!

I am confused by the noise that many feel GG1 has brought a new era of dominance for NB, podcasts allude to it, but never explain what they are seeing.

 

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Ceodoc said:

Like a lot of arguments for our 'same' cost models not performing like for like. The theory is that you can combine with X model or X trick to make them shine, invariably this means SS spent in selection or rss used in play.

"Bad JuJu is brilliant, just bring Grootslang to give him that severe terrain"!

NB does have great combos, not going to deny, but it feels like we have to search for the rainbow when other factions just insert X model and it does what it says on the the tin.

I think this is probably more how this faction works than that other faction relying less on their synergies... NVB has (imho) a higer skill floor than other factions (but not necesarilly higher skill ceiling). Our models are in general squishier, this is a mostly mele/short range faction, we don't have that many ways to generate resources, our best defense is a good ofense and our best schemers are locked behind some masters. All of this put extra pressure on the player because we rely more on how we use the advantages of the faction than on more pasive things that give an extra safety net like defensive tech or extra resources, which make mistakes costly; crews played willy-nilly doesn't work as well as some crews in other factions.

However every faction need to look for their best combos and not make mistakes to compete when things get serious; changing a random model in a competitive crew in other faction will ruin that list the same there than here.

In this case, a concealing/severe marker doesn't turn Juju from bad to awesome; that extra point of healing and those 3'' without having to discard a card are nice and may make models able to bring those markers more appealing, but the model is viable without it if those points are better expend in a Silurid or Bokor for example. Counting the Demise and the Regen bad Juju may heal 6 in a turn without help, that extra point is useful but it's not a huge enabler.

1 hour ago, Ceodoc said:

One great new Versatile model is what we NB need. Outside Serena/Dopple meh!

New options are always welcome, but I'd rather see some models and masters under the curve getting some love first.

[ezramantis]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@ezramantis, it is concealing, not severe. So Grootslang, McTavish, etc.

 

Well there's another thing to nudge me into finally buying those 2. Though those still create markers rather than drop them so i'll still have to move (or be moved) into them. The in base contact restriction will require more attention but still, more markers for the team. I do notice that the wording on grootslang says "after THIS model is deployed" rather than "after deployment". So if i end up as attacker, put Groot and Juju in different groups, AND get lucky enough to have  my opponent pick Groots group for first deployment i could then put Juju starting in a marker.

I can't disagree with @Ceodoc. It does feel like the answer for this keyword is often to pay X more ss for a babysitter (or 2) in order to get a model working rather than just to optimize it. Not that those models don't also come with other uses, but still. I guess to be fair the synergies and combos are what has always made malifaux fun for me so i'm getting what I want in a "wyrd" way. Nyuk nyuk.

And as to the def discrepensy, maybe I've just had some bad luck in a small sample size, but still i feel like I'm not getting those 4-5 hits worth of hp. Compared to Monty, sure it's only 3 pts difference, but it's also a Terrifying check beforehand. That'll ruin your attack before you even try to break his def. I'm willing to put in more games and see what a larger sample size looks like. Glad to hear others aren't having the same problems with it.

Thanks gang, I'm a little less bummed. And glad to hear that Bad Juju has more supporters in this edition than the last. Got another HH game on vassal today. Vs Lurch again. Gonna get that sucka.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

@ezramantis, a weakness of tormented is mobility. With Bad Juju vs Tormented, you're probably favoured for getting explosives down, he is favoured for the combat slog.

If you can lay down a few bombs and then get combat started, you may find that is enough of a lead that his combat advantage is countered by your VP lead.

[clockworkspide]

16 hours ago, Ceodoc said:

One great new Versatile model is what we NB need. Outside Serena/Dopple meh!

Versatile models should be great only under certain circumstances.  They should be tech picks into specific factions/keywords/board setups,  not generalist auto-includes.

The days of Faction All-Stars ft. [Master Name] should be over.  Let the past die.  Kill it, if you have to.

[ezramantis]

Well "that sucka" straight murdered my Juju.  I charged right in, focused up and ready to smash with my 3/4/6...and the cards weren't with me.  That Terrifying ate a face card every time to leave me with a 8 or 9 at best on the attack flip.  Hoping for a Focused Attention trigger, my hand and deck both left me hanging.  I was quickly back on my heels with his Execute trigger eating a card or a SS along with my Demise ability eating a card.  Half my hand just to stay alive.  The guy brought no stones.  None.  And he rocked me.  Went toe to toe and looked like a punk.  Didn't even scratch him.  It was pathetic.  Saved my cards each round JUST for that match up.  By the end I was using face cards to prevent Execute and proc Demise (eternal).  Ended up Tossing him in the Mud just to get a moment to drop a strategy marker and stay in the strat game.  Then I Ambushed back in just to tie Montressor up for the one more activation it was gonna take to snap what twigs and dust remained of my mighty swamp monster so the rest of my crew could do what little they could.  Disappointing.

I hope I get another chance or two at that match up just to see, but man oh man was that brutal.

[Maniacal_cackle]

51 minutes ago, ezramantis said:

Well "that sucka" straight murdered my Juju.  I charged right in, focused up and ready to smash with my 3/4/6...and the cards weren't with me.  That Terrifying ate a face card every time to leave me with a 8 or 9 at best on the attack flip.  Hoping for a Focused Attention trigger, my hand and deck both left me hanging.  I was quickly back on my heels with his Execute trigger eating a card or a SS along with my Demise ability eating a card.  Half my hand just to stay alive.  The guy brought no stones.  None.  And he rocked me.  Went toe to toe and looked like a punk.  Didn't even scratch him.  It was pathetic.  Saved my cards each round JUST for that match up.  By the end I was using face cards to prevent Execute and proc Demise (eternal).  Ended up Tossing him in the Mud just to get a moment to drop a strategy marker and stay in the strat game.  Then I Ambushed back in just to tie Montressor up for the one more activation it was gonna take to snap what twigs and dust remained of my mighty swamp monster so the rest of my crew could do what little they could.  Disappointing.

I hope I get another chance or two at that match up just to see, but man oh man was that brutal.

Ouch!

Tormented are one of the best crews in the game for all-out brawls, so just charging into them will generally result in a loss for most crews. Here's how I'd look to play that game (though I'm not too familiar with Swampfiend).

Bad Juju, Hooded Rider, Silurid, Bayou Gator. 

This gives you two sources of ruthless to ignore terrifying, and tremendous mobility. I'd put a bomb on each minion and two on hooded rider.

Turns one and two, have the team run either left or right - not straight down the middle. Hooded rider could help gator move. Gator, silurid, and Rider would have the mission of getting four bombs down by turn 2. Juju would have the mission of not getting hit turns one or two, or possibly engaging models at 2" to prevent interacts. Activate Juju last and deploy it somewhere safe to maximise your information before committing to something.

Don't deploy as far up as you can. Focus on positioning that gets you your turn 1/2 goals.

Then turn 3 when his crew is still struggling to get bombs down, your whole crew spends the rest of the game brawling. You should have a 2-3 bomb lead, so the key is to do decently in the brawl that ensues. Then ride the bomb advantage to victory.

EDIT: menacing croak could win you the game here.

My two cents, anyway!

 

[Ogid]

I was also going to point out that diving a scary bubble crew to punch their more sturdy guy is... bold.

Also mind that Focused without any other  to damage isn't that good versus H2W, specially if the stat is the same than the Df of the guy, on top of all the other defensive tech... the odds were heavily stacked against you there.

I've not played that match up in particular, but as @Maniacal_cackle suggest you really need to use the mobility of the crew to get some advantage before going full brawl. Also with the ability of Zoraida's crew to funnel actions, including both The Carver and the rider (the 2 ruthless options in the faction open for her) could be a good idea depending on the pool. The carver really benefices from extra actions and has a swift action trigger that may be useful to attack Jaw itself.

[santaclaws01]

7 hours ago, ezramantis said:

That Terrifying ate a face card every time to leave me with a 8 or 9 at best on the attack flip.

Just to be sure, you mean you flipped the face cards on terrifying and then got moderate flips on the attack? 

 

Also you mentioned using face cards on execute and demise procs, why didn't you use those to cheat the attack? 

[Adran]

18 hours ago, ezramantis said:

Well "that sucka" straight murdered my Juju.  I charged right in, focused up and ready to smash with my 3/4/6...and the cards weren't with me.  That Terrifying ate a face card every time to leave me with a 8 or 9 at best on the attack flip.  Hoping for a Focused Attention trigger, my hand and deck both left me hanging.  I was quickly back on my heels with his Execute trigger eating a card or a SS along with my Demise ability eating a card.  Half my hand just to stay alive.  The guy brought no stones.  None.  And he rocked me.  Went toe to toe and looked like a punk.  Didn't even scratch him.  It was pathetic.  Saved my cards each round JUST for that match up.  By the end I was using face cards to prevent Execute and proc Demise (eternal).  Ended up Tossing him in the Mud just to get a moment to drop a strategy marker and stay in the strat game.  Then I Ambushed back in just to tie Montressor up for the one more activation it was gonna take to snap what twigs and dust remained of my mighty swamp monster so the rest of my crew could do what little they could.  Disappointing.

I hope I get another chance or two at that match up just to see, but man oh man was that brutal.

Focusing doesn't seem like a good idea here, you're not likely to get a straight damage flip. (Although if they are using lots of cards from hand elsewhere, and so unlikely to be able to cheat it might help). From what you are saying you had very bad luck in that your opponent managed to often get the execute trigger even without stones, and also managed to regularly do more than 2 lots of weak damage to you.

Toss in the mud is a good action in this matchup. You are able to deny the opponent 1 action every turn if you get it off. You want Montressor between 1 and 2" because there he loses an action every time to engage you. Unless your aim is to kill him, in which case, Juju is not a great choice to kill Montressor, but he is a good choice to survive him. You should pass 70% of the terror checks without having to use a card from your hand (so only needing to cheat 2 cards every 3 turns). So you should be hoping for a toss and 1 attack. You probably only hit 3 out of 4 of those attacks, (Assuming living is your main aim, you probably only damage 2 times in 4 turns because Toss is the priority), but in return he is having to discard a card every turn to be able to declare execute triggers and bonus actions, spending 1 action to walk and 1 to attack you, likely only doing 4 damage in total (2 for the weak damage, and 1 because you have staggered and 1 from the bonus action). With you healing at least 2 and hopefully 3 damage each turn it will take a while to get you down to half wounds. This has both of you reaching half wound by about turn 4.

The trigger you want to hit is the quicksand trigger. If you can get a turn where you move montressor and slow him, he is not in a good place (in that he does nothing really this turn). Outside of that, it depends on what the table is like and what other models you both have in the crews.

 

TLDR: Decide what you are trying to achieve from the fight. Juju is not a great choice to kill Montressor, but he is a good choice to prevent Montressor doing anything. On a good day, he can deny Montressor doing anything whilst he still does a little himself (Push him away, interact, ambush back into engagement).  For something other than this stalemate you probably need other models to do stuff in the fight.

 

[ezramantis]

18 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Just to be sure, you mean you flipped the face cards on terrifying and then got moderate flips on the attack? 

 

Also you mentioned using face cards on execute and demise procs, why didn't you use those to cheat the attack? 

Yes, as you say. Moderate at best, haha. Bad Juju had somd bad luck that day I'll tell ya

I didn't use the face cards to cheat cause they wouldn't have bridged the gap. It only happened once or twice but his stat 6 attack vs my 3 mv (I was staggered at the time) meant the 11 in my hand wasn't gonna cut it.