Harness Chi

[korgal]

Hello, I'm testing the Shenlong team and I have a question about Harness Chi.

Can you use Harness Chi after cheating with a card in your hand ?

Thank you in advance !

[Adran]

It says you use it after flipping 1 or more cards, so you need to spend it before you cheat, but it will count towards the final total even if you cheat. 

[Cursed25]

what @Adran said! But also remember that the +2 is only added on the final duel total! It won't change who gets to cheat first! 😉 

[Adran]

17 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

what @Adran said! But also remember that the +2 is only added on the final duel total! It won't change who gets to cheat first! 😉 

It adds to the duel total not just the final duel total, so it can change who cheats first.  

EDIT

Actually reading the rules show that I was wrong, and the modifier isn't added until after cards are cheated.

[Cursed25]

17 hours ago, Adran said:

It adds to the duel total not just the final duel total, so it can change who cheats first.  

If you go look at the duel steps in the rules (p.10) you'll see that the only place they add modifiers to the total is at the end at step D. In step B, they say to add the stat of the model, the value of the card and the suit. This will give you the current duel total who decides who cheats first in step C. They never talk about any modifier in step B. While in step D they say to add the stat, value of the card, suit and any additional suits or modifiers together.

 

So sadly the +2 for harness chi is only used in the final duel total!

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, Cursed25 said:

If you go look at the duel steps in the rules (p.10) you'll see that the only place they add modifiers to the total is at the end at step D. In step B, they say to add the stat of the model, the value of the card and the suit. This will give you the current duel total who decides who cheats first in step C. They never talk about any modifier in step B. While in step D they say to add the stat, value of the card, suit and any additional suits or modifiers together.

 

So sadly the +2 for harness chi is only used in the final duel total!

Good point, I'd forgotten that

[Raimu]

20 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

If you go look at the duel steps in the rules (p.10) you'll see that the only place they add modifiers to the total is at the end at step D. In step B, they say to add the stat of the model, the value of the card and the suit. This will give you the current duel total who decides who cheats first in step C. They never talk about any modifier in step B. While in step D they say to add the stat, value of the card, suit and any additional suits or modifiers together.

 

So sadly the +2 for harness chi is only used in the final duel total!

We also know that the rules on cards can override rules in rulebook. If you compare similar ability "Magical influence" in Bayou it says that after flipping card in the duel you discard token (Glowy) to add suit to final duel total. But "Harness Chi" mentions just duel total, which is mentioned in step C to determine who cheats first. I see reasoning behind both points of view, I hope we will get this clarified in FAQ in the future.

[solkan]

9 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

If you go look at the duel steps in the rules (p.10) you'll see that the only place they add modifiers to the total is at the end at step D. In step B, they say to add the stat of the model, the value of the card and the suit. This will give you the current duel total who decides who cheats first in step C. They never talk about any modifier in step B. While in step D they say to add the stat, value of the card, suit and any additional suits or modifiers together.

The only place in the starting game sequence that discusses deploying models is Step I (Deployment).  Yet the From The Shadows ability specifies a different timing for those models.  You’re presenting the argument that says From The Shadows can’t work.

 The duel rules don’t contain any text preventing the duel total changing before Step D.

 

[Adran]

11 hours ago, solkan said:

The only place in the starting game sequence that discusses deploying models is Step I (Deployment).  Yet the From The Shadows ability specifies a different timing for those models.  You’re presenting the argument that says From The Shadows can’t work.

 The duel rules don’t contain any text preventing the duel total changing before Step D.

 

I don't agree with this as an example to support your argument. From the shadows expressly tells us that you don't deploy the model in the deployment phase but instead in the start phase, so its a very different case.

The core rules can be overridden by Cards, but they normally tell us. I can see the argument that you calculate the duel total and the Ability tells us it modifies the duel total. Its not clear if it is supposed to modify the initial duel total, as well as both final duel totals. we probably either want to add the word final to it, or ideally mention modifiers in Step B where you first calculate a duel total. (I don't know which is right, there are good arguments for both)

(And in hindsight, we probably want to change the wording somehow for 4th edition because calculating a final duel total and then having to calculate a new final duel total after that is a little confusing when you look in detail of how abilities interact. I don't mind calculating multiple current duel totals, but multiple Final duel totals  breaks the meaning of the word final. )

 

 

 

[Cursed25]

as @Adran has said, when an ability on a card contradicts the core rules, it's pretty explicit on the card, like your From the Shadow example. But Harness Chi is far from explicit and it also uses the singular for duel total which if you go by RAW means that for every duel you make with this model only 1 of the 2 duel totals in the duel steps should be enhanced with a +2 and since in the core rules they say modifiers are applied to the final duel total, I'll play harness chi like I said until a FAQ clarifies everything!