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Models and keywords that need a boost/redesign


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5 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

I also disagree in your thought that Pandora is a counter crew.  You can't counter pick entire masters since crew selection is blind, but she doesn't have the ability to counter build to at least one matchup in each faction.  A counter crew is a crew that can get an even game in any matchup, i.e. Dreamer.

You can absolutely get a good idea of what master is going to be picked by your opponent, especially if you know them and what they like.  The order is faction, strat/scheme, then master.  If you know your opponent is Arcanists, and plays Hoffman, Colette, Kaerys, and Sandeep, and you know that it's Symbols - Breakthrough/Assassinate/Sabotage/Spread them Out/Runic Binding you'd probably be able to guess what they'd bring.  This isn't a wild idea, people do it all the time.  
 

Dreamer's just OP, that's different.

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Well reading through some of this thread I am seriously going, what? Wow? Some of the stuff you want buffed is crazy. Von schill needs something for Lazarus but otherwise is one of my top picks i

So, these are my toughs collected over the past 4 months, during which I've been playing a lot in Vassal (up to 4 games/week once 😅). With the (hopefully soon) release or Explorer's Society, I would l

I'll limit myself to NVB, since that's what I know.  I'm sure most of this will be dismissed with "wah Dreamer OP wah": Nekima - A bad model as a master.  Sure she has a stat 7 attack, but it's 3

8 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

 

You can absolutely get a good idea of what master is going to be picked by your opponent, especially if you know them and what they like.  The order is faction, strat/scheme, then master.  If you know your opponent is Arcanists, and plays Hoffman, Colette, Kaerys, and Sandeep, and you know that it's Symbols - Breakthrough/Assassinate/Sabotage/Spread them Out/Runic Binding you'd probably be able to guess what they'd bring.  This isn't a wild idea, people do it all the time.  
 

Dreamer's just OP, that's different.

Sandeep and Kaeris are both good in that pool, and Hoffman/collette are not lacking either.  So please enlighten me on how much fun Kaeris v. Pandora would be.  I'll wait.

Dreamer is strong because he doesn't have any bad matchups.  He's only busted when he brings along Zoraida.

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One major issue is that if you buff a model because it is weak against some things and strong against other things... Then you end up in a situation where that model is good against lots of things and auto-win against some things. So that's something to be avoided.

Personally I'd much rather buffs focus on models that are almost universally bad, rarely or never taken (or with a low win rate when they are taken).

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31 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Personally I'd much rather buffs focus on models that are almost universally bad, rarely or never taken (or with a low win rate when they are taken).

The problem is that there are very rarely models that are unarguably bad.  Hell I just had someone tell me the other day bloodwretches were fine 5ss models.  

I think the issue is that the balancing is all over the place.  For example have models in Rezzers which are insanely overtuned, but nothing is done about them, going up against models in other factions which are technically balanced, but aren't overturned, making the model look fine in a vacuum, but have real issues on the actual table vs a lot of things.  Follow that with "but it's really good against some things", and you get nothing happening.  Just because a model is really good against something, doesn't justify it being really bad against a lot of other things.

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On 6/14/2020 at 5:11 AM, Nagi21 said:

The problem is that there are very rarely models that are unarguably bad.  Hell I just had someone tell me the other day bloodwretches were fine 5ss models.  

I think the issue is that the balancing is all over the place.  For example have models in Rezzers which are insanely overtuned, but nothing is done about them, going up against models in other factions which are technically balanced, but aren't overturned, making the model look fine in a vacuum, but have real issues on the actual table vs a lot of things.  Follow that with "but it's really good against some things", and you get nothing happening.  Just because a model is really good against something, doesn't justify it being really bad against a lot of other things.

I highly disagree with that. Niche models are justified because you can bring your whole faction to a tournament and pick the crew that is best suited for a given task.

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5 hours ago, Ignithas said:

I highly disagree with that. Niche models are justified because you can bring your whole faction to a tournament and pick the crew that is best suited for a given task.

I agree totally for niche models, although I think it doesn't apply as well for crews. You can hardly pull a woe crew in after declaring Nekima leader for example (though may be able to OOK an Iggy, etc).

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1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I agree totally for niche models, although I think it doesn't apply as well for crews. You can hardly pull a woe crew in after declaring Nekima leader for example (though may be able to OOK an Iggy, etc).

It depends on what your niche is. A keyword that is good at killing but bad at dropping scheme markers could find play in several games. You might not want to only own that keyword if you want to be competitive in multi round events, but owning it could put your chances of winning up.

That of course leads to the debate over how much you should be expected to own to play.

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2 hours ago, Adran said:

That of course leads to the debate over how much you should be expected to own to play.

I would very much like the answer to this to be: one keyword plus a few versatiles OR ook.

That makes it easier to get more players interested, and means more players can practice with a single crew to get that all important game time down for those sub 2hr game tournaments.

But I feel the current answer is probably 3 crews plus most the versatiles per faction.

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6 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

I would very much like the answer to this to be: one keyword plus a few versatiles OR ook.

That makes it easier to get more players interested, and means more players can practice with a single crew to get that all important game time down for those sub 2hr game tournaments.

But I feel the current answer is probably 3 crews plus most the versatiles per faction.

I guess it depends on what you mean "to play". You can play with just a starter box in a few cases. You will struggle in some games, so if you want to be competitive in tournements its probably a bit more, but exactly how much does depend on the models you pick (there is at least 1 event in the UK won by Explorers McCabe, so pretty much just the smallest possible keyword and since it was the UK it probably didn't allow second master hiring so no possible non keyword hires).

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42 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

I would very much like the answer to this to be: one keyword plus a few versatiles OR ook.

That makes it easier to get more players interested, and means more players can practice with a single crew to get that all important game time down for those sub 2hr game tournaments.

But I feel the current answer is probably 3 crews plus most the versatiles per faction.

If you want to be competitive, I think the answer is 2 masters, the majority of their keyword models, and a handful of versatile or ook, For casual play, you can absolutely do one keyword and a few extra models.

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One of the problems of miniatures games compared to board games or CCGs is that miniatures games have models, and people love the models.  They buy them, assemble them, paint them, and then are emotionally attached to them, all before they hit the table.  So they mentally want the models to perform well.  If the game is reasonably balanced, a lot of the time it's possible to argue that even a shoddy model "did okay".  After all, a 5 stone model that's a competent scheme runner and dies to a stiff breeze might do the same job as a 4 stone model.  But it did a job.  

In a CCG or board game, if something sucks people just don't build it.  So with Twilight Imperium you don't get someone telling you that Diplomacy is a great pick or Arborec is top tier because no one has a that emotional attachment.  And it's always made conversations around miniatures games hard.

 

I like the focus on keywords that need boosts over models, because it's easier to admit that Sandeep or Dreamer might be a little much, while Euripides and Mei Fang need some serious help.

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3 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

One of the problems of miniatures games compared to board games or CCGs is that miniatures games have models, and people love the models.  They buy them, assemble them, paint them, and then are emotionally attached to them, all before they hit the table.  So they mentally want the models to perform well.  If the game is reasonably balanced, a lot of the time it's possible to argue that even a shoddy model "did okay".  After all, a 5 stone model that's a competent scheme runner and dies to a stiff breeze might do the same job as a 4 stone model.  But it did a job.  

In a CCG or board game, if something sucks people just don't build it.  So with Twilight Imperium you don't get someone telling you that Diplomacy is a great pick or Arborec is top tier because no one has a that emotional attachment.  And it's always made conversations around miniatures games hard.

 

I like the focus on keywords that need boosts over models, because it's easier to admit that Sandeep or Dreamer might be a little much, while Euripides and Mei Fang need some serious help.

Out of curiosity, whats wrong with Mei Feng

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31 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Out of curiosity, whats wrong with Mei Feng

Mediocrity.  Schemes and Stones does a good breakdown.  One of those crews that doesn't do anything particularly amazingly, has glaring weaknesses and bad matchups that can cripple the crew, and the good doesn't really outweigh that.

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5 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I like the focus on keywords that need boosts over models, because it's easier to admit that Sandeep or Dreamer might be a little much, while Euripides and Mei Fang need some serious help.

since I complained about Taelor, Bishop and the Desperate Mercs, I'll say Mercenary overall seems fine to me. It's mostly annoying that their 2 9 stone models just underperform so badly

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6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Forgotten overall is pretty alright, but few people play Philip and the Nanny. And Rabble risers can be a bit rare as well.

Rabble risers would be pretty neat with juggernaut.

P&N could use a direct buff, but every buff to the minions also buffs them, so have to be careful there.

Yeah, Forgotten was basically Tier 1 and the Archie Nerf is least bad in their Crew. So I actually think they are still in a fine place. While I dont dig the Tara argument (she is is still great, she just isnt for GG1) I actually do feel this a little with Molly. Mostly due to the schemes, but also because Corrupted Ley Lines is the only really great Strategy she has. I do think she will get stronger in more mobility based seasons. 

That being said, I still think you head the nail on the head. Some Forgotten Models need help, and I dont think it would make the crew too strong, because molly can easily fill her crew with 50SS of great models. But P&N is super cool and iconic and should see the table. Also Rabble Raisers. What I think it would actually do is give the whole crew more versatility, because better P&N and Rabble Risers would give them a new playstyle with bubbling around the centre I feel. 

I also think the Forgotten Marshal needs help, personally the "fix" I would most like to see for him and Ressers as a whole is actually give him the tormented Key Word as well and let him summon Tormented Models. Then see if points need to be adjusted, I actually dont think so. The Forgotten Marshal as he stands just has a too one dimensional summoning pool. Being able to summon tormented would give a lot of cool versatility and not have the same problems as introducing better Forgotten Minions, because even if he managed to summon a hanged (without stoning!) Molly cant give him a second activaten. Also in Jack Daw he might be too card hungry. 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Shakyor said:

The Forgotten Marshal as he stands just has a too one dimensional summoning pool. Being able to summon tormented would give a lot of cool versatility and not have the same problems as introducing better Forgotten Minions, because even if he managed to summon a hanged (without stoning!) Molly cant give him a second activaten. Also in Jack Daw he might be too card hungry. 

Thankfully the Forgotten Marshal can only summon things that are a lower cost than him. A tanky 7 cost (with a decent ranged attack) being able to just summon a strong 8SS model every turn you happen to have a 12+:crowwith a :ToS-Fast: is way too swingy.

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2 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Thankfully the Forgotten Marshal can only summon things that are a lower cost than him. A tanky 7 cost (with a decent ranged attack) being able to just summon a strong 8SS model every turn you happen to have a 12+:crowwith a :ToS-Fast: is way too swingy.

You are right, even better than!

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Well reading through some of this thread I am seriously going, what? Wow?

Some of the stuff you want buffed is crazy. Von schill needs something for Lazarus but otherwise is one of my top picks in outcasts for almost any pool. Grenade belts by the way are great for mass scheme marker removal,especially vs crews that can place alot close together.

Bishop, great model, great beater. Wish he still had his defensive trigger built in, but with 2" move at start of the turn, chain gang and 3 actions he is fine where he is, especially as he can get to min 4 or easily put out stunned. 

Pandora and titania are great. Would I want more on bultungin? Yes as they are squishy but the keywords are fine. Pandora certainly doesn't need another range attack, between all her options it's often a struggle to decide what to use. Just wish her simple duels didnt require 7s to go off.

Not going through everything but have posted on defense of 4 of my top keywords

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9 hours ago, katadder said:

Bishop, great model, great beater. Wish he still had his defensive trigger built in, but with 2" move at start of the turn, chain gang and 3 actions he is fine where he is, especially as he can get to min 4 or easily put out stunned.

my problem with him is not his absolute power level (although I don't see anyone willing to pay the tax to take him ook, unlike Alyce and Mad Dog), but another glass cannon in a crew that's mostly glass cannons is kind of pointless. Sue or Marlena Webster seem like they do more for Mercenary at the same price

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1 minute ago, touchdown said:

my problem with him is not his absolute power level (although I don't see anyone willing to pay the tax to take him ook, unlike Alyce and Mad Dog), but another glass cannon in a crew that's mostly glass cannons is kind of pointless. Sue or Marlena Webster seem like they do more for Mercenary at the same price

I can see your point but hes another avenue of attack. he also brings extra movement to a pretty much full melee crew.

As said I run him with taelor so they both move 2" forward, then get another 3" of movement and then get to do all the stuff they would normally do, whilst the viks go off and do their thing.
Yes his 0" melee isnt great, but he has an effective 20" threat range even with that, how many other models get that? also with auto staggered, maybe auto stun if you choose that, its no easier to disengage from him than many 1" melee models (he effectively already starts at a moderate off their move if he had hit them with staggered).
I do wish he had built in defensive trigger like he used to as you have to win and have the crow to do anything back, mancha has it I believe. 

in theory Marlena might be good but she cant keep up with a mercenary crew, which if it wasnt for zipp would probably be our fastest crew. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

What would you do to become Frontiers more competitive?

I would redesign the Frontiers Home on the Range skill. 

Maybe something like: Once per Activation, after this model end its activation choose a friendly Frontier in LoS and push up to his Mv in any direction.

Or: Once per Activation, after this model end its activation choose a friendly model in LoS and take an interact action or draw a card.

Any other idea?

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I like Home On The Range.... it's a BIG ability in the beginning of the game, rather than a bunch of little effects throughout the game, which makes it different from everyone else.

Honestly I would remove From The Shadows on the Traps & just give them Home On The Range too.  Actually, give it to Raptors also.  It would have no effect in the Traps, they'd end up being able to get the same location with that many models, and it would give Raptors a reason to be bought rather just killed off screen.

This would give Frontier a HUGE 1st turn position advantage, which is how I figured they would be skulking around beforehand, but they have to fight like normal after that. 

You have the high ground.... whatcha gonna do with it?

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