Models and keywords that need a boost/redesign

[Jesy Blue]

47 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

We do have Blow it to Hell! with Mad Dog Bracket, but that's 11 OOK and we don't have Demolitionist.

We also have Rocket Launchers... but that's 16 ook.

There's 8 models that are "incoporeal-like" to ignore terrain in the faction... but only 1 flying model (we can import flying with Infamous and Nephilim).

But yeah.... really low on ways to deal with non-destructible terrain.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

You're now supposed to use Molly to get him in position, focus him, and find him the mask for leap (because she draws like 12 cards a turn).

I mostly agree Archie is okay-ish, but important to note he can't actually focus. Like 75% of the complaints about the nerf being too much are partially based on the fact that he already had a built-in weakness - no focus in a faction that hands out focus like candy.

EDIT: the card draw is an important point. If you're willing to use the red joker and draw 12 cards in a turn, you're over 95% to get a mask in hand.

Edit2: also Molly is a 2" push, so not clear on how she helps get him into position.

[RisingPhoenix]

 

14 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I mostly agree Archie is okay-ish, but important to note he can't actually focus. Like 75% of the complaints about the nerf being too much are partially based on the fact that he already had a built-in weakness - no focus in a faction that hands out focus like candy.

EDIT: the card draw is an important point. If you're willing to use the red joker and draw 12 cards in a turn, you're over 95% to get a mask in hand.

That's fair, I forgot that numbskull does cancel focus.  You never remember an action your opponent doesn't take.   Eh, she still almost certainly gets the mask if she really really needs it.

Anyway, having Stunned, access to Lantern of Souls, Exorcism, and better selection of Ruthless is all more important to Outcasts (and far more pressing) than getting a trigger to remove terrain which punishes... what, Titania?  The new explorer's society faction, in theory?  

We have much more glaring holes in our model lineup than some missing terrain marker removal.  Which, mind you, we actually do have, because we have Zipp (we just can't OOK it).  We could really use our entire upgrade mess looked at, for instance.  

[RisingPhoenix]

Anyway, on the Ice Golem - has anyone noticed how bizarre this model's bonus is?  Its ram is +1 damage, 2 if they have slow.  Okay, it's a 4/5/7 damage track (WTF) if it's near an ice pillar marker, but... how does anyone have slow?  Ice Pillars give out slow at start of activation, and then Slow goes away at end of activation.   The Ice Golem can't activate during an opposing model's turn, obviously.  You can use Rasputina to pulse it out off Ice Pillars - but that's what they do anyway!  

The only reliable way to hand it out without wasting master AP is December Acolytes.  Now mind you, being 4/5/7 is good, the Ice Golem's problems all revolve around it being slow and fragile if you bypass armor.   But that trigger is an odd duck.  

I think Rasputina needs "If this model is the crew's leader, all models with Demise (Frozen Heart) that take the Focus action may trigger their demise ability, and draw a card." You may say it's broken.  You may say that Focus is still terrible, and it needs Shielded +1 on top of that.  Who knows?  

[Zebo]

7 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Bokors don't go on every list

Maybe, until now I've faced Mah, Brewmaster, Wong, Ulix and Zoraida, and in every crew there was at least 2 Bokor.

 

About Outcast, I can't but agree in some things said. 

Yes, Freikorps drain lots of cards from your hand with and card draw (out of one trigger in Librarian's attack). I wouldn't add more source triggers, but would look for other ways. Still not sure how. Maybe something in the Steam Trunk (although Source in Librarian's healing should be a thing). 

The problem with Lazarus is that... It's amazing when the opponent is a newbie or doesn't know how to avoid it. If the opponent knows how to nullify it (basically keeping distance until you can engage it) Lazarus becomes 9ss of trash. 

I think Grenades from Grenade Belt need buff. Between other Equipment Upgrades and models own bonus actions, you are never gonna use them. Add Stunned to Distracting grenades and Injured to the other ones (and maybe increase the damage). 

Land mines being worse than a hole with sticks still makes me sad. 

My problem with Taelor is the fact that she makes the same than the Viks. I wouldn't improve her killiness, but maybe some kind of buff to push friendly models, or give out focus or shieldes. Make her to improve her crew.

Crazy Idea about Welcome to Malifaux: When an enemy model with an attached Summon Upgrade and no Welcome Tokens is moved within 6" Of this model, this model may discard a card to place itself into base contact with that model and take a  action targeting it. After resolving the generated attack, the target model gains a Welcomed Token. 

Not sure about Bishop don't have the model, so but played him since beta), but I'd like to see his defensive trigger in built. 

Can't give a genuine opinion about Obliteration, sadly. 

[Zebo]

16 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I think Rasputina needs "If this model is the crew's leader, all models with Demise (Frozen Heart) that take the Focus action may trigger their demise ability, and draw a card." You may say it's broken.  You may say that Focus is still terrible, and it needs Shielded +1 on top of that.  Who knows?  

Oh my gosh. One action across the faction that gives out focus, one card and a piece of blocking terrain that allows your Master to take actions through it? That's what Freikorps needs

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, Zebo said:

Maybe, until now I've faced Mah, Brewmaster, Wong, Ulix and Zoraida, and in every crew there was at least 2 Bokor.

One thing to differentiate between is when a model appears in every crew because it is powerful (pre-nerf Archie) and a model apperas in every crew you face because it is the model someone owns.

Every single game basically I field models from Eternal Servitude... But I bought that box to act as a budget option to give me some solid models in lots of situations, rather than the best model for any particular situation.

I don't know which category Bokor fall in, as I've only played against them 1-2 times when Zoraida fielded them, and they definitely didn't seem like the most powerful thing the crew was doing.

[Zebo]

Maybe I should clarify. 

I've faced in live Ophelia, Wong, Brew and Mah, and in my last 5-6 games versus them (before Pandemic) there was at least1 Bokor in each list.

I've faced in Vassal Mah, Ulix and Zoraida, and there was at least 2 Bokor in each list. 

I've seen also as many vassal games as possible, and in every game where it was possible (Bayou lists or NB Zoraida lists) there was Bokors.

[Nagi21]

I'll limit myself to NVB, since that's what I know.  I'm sure most of this will be dismissed with "wah Dreamer OP wah":

Nekima - A bad model as a master.  Sure she has a stat 7 attack, but it's 3/5/6, which makes it bad vs armor or HTW (or god forbid both... filthy Rezzers).  She has no defenses aside from her mobility, and her kit is all over the place.  She's basically the opposite of Seamus (bad master, great crew).  Why one of her 10ss minions couldn't teach her combat finesse I'll never know.  Not to mention the IR nerfs (which I won't mention beyond here since it affected everything in the faction badly).

Lelu/Lilitu - Cost the same as a young nephilim, but need both to even consider working, and Lilitu is not good at Df4 and mid-range.  The healing doesn't work due to healing rules, and it's expensive compared to the alternatives.

Terror Tots - Yes I get they're 4ss, but what role do they have?  They're bad as schemers since they have no mobility abilities, and their offensive prowess doesn't exist in the change from 2e to 3e.  Dolls are better schemers, and I'd rather have 4ss than a tot with a crew that eats soulstones by the pound.  Ironically the 4ss model is outclassed by both 3ss options (hounds and dolls).

Blood Wretches - Just... what are these things?  I know you're not selling the 2e starter set anymore but come on...

Angel - Angel isn't a bad model per se, but clockwork rifles are the new fad, and she's outperformed by a bushwacker (stealth vs soulstone use... hmm...).  She's just too expensive for what she brings to the table.

Woes - Grouping them all into one here since it's an overall issue.  Misery isn't really very good.  The reason people think pandora is really good, is that she still devours low WP models due to opportunist and stunned, so her counter matchups look good.  It's rare to see someone play bubble Dora like back in 2e.  The fact that you can't proc multiple miseries at once, combined with the once per activation restriction make it just an incidental ability.  

Sorrows/Lyssa/Iggy/Aversions - The low cost Woes lack... something.  They die to a stiff breeze or any kind of focused attack from a model, but don't really provide anything other than Misery auras (see above).  Unless Misery gets buffed, the low cost woes need something to make them a good alternative to Elite Dora crews.

Waldgeists - These really need a cost reduction I think.  Mv 4 is painful and they don't do anything but sit around and tank, which is fine, but at 6 I could get just as much tankiness with offensive power included in an Autumn Knight for 1ss extra.

Bultungin - I've used these once, for condition removal, vs Collette.  It was CLL so some condition removal plus lodestone movement was helpful, but these things are just... not that good, and everyone knows it so I won't get into it much.

Rougarou - Expensive and squishy.  Yes they're fast but they're built like anti-schemers, which is fine, and priced like frontline beaters.  Either a cost reduction (which wouldn't work since then they'd be the same as knights), or some kind of defensive buff to make them more able in a scrum (I mean is asking for Df5 such heresy?).

Killjoy - I've seen moments where Killjoy does work, but it's few and far between.  He just lacks AP efficiency.  Without something to pull him up the board, you'll be lucky to get 2 attacks out of him by the end of turn 2.  He also struggles vs HTW/Armor targets, which makes him a deceptively inefficient beater.  Sure he can keep coming back but at the cost of another model, which isn't fantastic.

Bandersnatch -  I keep trying to make this model work in my head, but it's just so, so squishy.  It can't pick a fight with something in it's own weight class since they can target it even while buried, and it has no good way to stay alive.  

Euripides - What is it with NVB and bad defensive triggers?  The on success means his defensive trigger will rarely go off, and even if it does it's not the most useful thing in the world (Luci has a better thing in a bonus action).  Also... why doesn't he have his faction ability (frozen vigor)?  He chucks pillars, or hilariously tries to go hit things with his fist (which usually ends well... for your opponent).  Underwhelming to say the least, but not useless like some on this list.

Savage - In general, the entire keyword suffers from the same squishiness that the Nephilim do, only instead of regeneration and flight, they get Hard to Kill and Old ways.  I feel something was lost in translation with the crew.  In theory, the large models can be targeted, but should be able to get cover from their massive ice pillars and be hard to take down between shielded and healing keeping them over 1hp,  In practice, they have issues moving around, and a very significant amount of ranged abilities ignore cover entirely, leaving them with no defense other than HtK.  Old ways also takes 1 dmg to proc, so it doesn't become useable at 2hp or lower (since if you use old ways at 2 you go to 1, and at Df5... you can be hit for -- pretty easily).  IR also hit this crew hard (I know I said I wouldn't...), since it makes Geryon's extended reach a much worse proposition, and the repositioning was important to this crew.  They really need something keyword wise to not make themselves giant, clumsy, targets.  You gave me Cyclops with min 3 damage... now let me be able to walk out of my deployment zone with them and use it!

[ShinChan]

11 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Maybe I should clarify. 

I've faced in live Ophelia, Wong, Brew and Mah, and in my last 5-6 games versus them (before Pandemic) there was at least1 Bokor in each list.

I've faced in Vassal Mah, Ulix and Zoraida, and there was at least 2 Bokor in each list. 

I've seen also as many vassal games as possible, and in every game where it was possible (Bayou lists or NB Zoraida lists) there was Bokors.

Not in this one:  

I've been playing a bunch of Bayou also, I only used Bokors in keyword (Wong) and with Ophelia, due to this nasty trick with Sammy:

I only brought one with Mah, when I was learning the crew, since Tricksy only has healing in a trigger of BBB, I was playing Reckoning and I didn't want my models to die too fast. then I learnt that most of the time is better to have a crazy chicken for the same points, that it's going to do more. Maybe Tricksy doesn't have healing, but usually has enough card draw (and deck manipulation by BB).

With Ulix, is the other way around, there are lots of healing, but no card draw and many TNs to hit. They also have a lot of ping damage from the Piglets so it's easy to give fast and Glowy to the Bokors, allowing them to heal from a safe distance while drawing cards.

Ophelia doesn't have card draw or healing, so they're the best possible choice for her when looking OOK.

Brewie is going to benefit more from other model that can spread poison than paying 7ss for a Bokor, since almost all the models have Trusty Flask, and there are already better support models in Tri-Chi and some pseudobeys.

Som'er already has some card draw and more healing than he needs and better obeys than the one from the Bokors.

With this I'm not saying that they're bad! They're actually really good, but in the Vassal league organized by @dannydb there was another 2 players playing Bayou in my group and I didn't see a single Bokor in their lists (and I lost one of the games without any option to win vs Mah and the other one was quite tight).

 

[MuMantai]

7 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Anyway, on the Ice Golem - has anyone noticed how bizarre this model's bonus is?  Its ram is +1 damage, 2 if they have slow.  Okay, it's a 4/5/7 damage track (WTF) if it's near an ice pillar marker, but... how does anyone have slow?  Ice Pillars give out slow at start of activation, and then Slow goes away at end of activation.   The Ice Golem can't activate during an opposing model's turn, obviously.  You can use Rasputina to pulse it out off Ice Pillars - but that's what they do anyway!  

The only reliable way to hand it out without wasting master AP is December Acolytes.  Now mind you, being 4/5/7 is good, the Ice Golem's problems all revolve around it being slow and fragile if you bypass armor.   But that trigger is an odd duck.  

I think Rasputina needs "If this model is the crew's leader, all models with Demise (Frozen Heart) that take the Focus action may trigger their demise ability, and draw a card." You may say it's broken.  You may say that Focus is still terrible, and it needs Shielded +1 on top of that.  Who knows?  

I am with you that Rasputina needs a buff. But to say that she has no way of getting Slow on a model is... odd.

First, the Ice Golem has another trigger on his Fist that gives out Slow. So he can make a model slow, and then attack again (and then again) to get the Frozen Smash trigger. Ice Gamin have the same trigger, but that is not very likely.

Then you have three ranged models: Acolytes, Silent Ones (trigger built in) and Rasputina give Slow on a trigger on their ranged attacks. Rasputina also can give Slow to anyone under the blast. And Snow Storm has a shockwave that can give Slow on a trigger.

Again, not saying the crew is good. I like your suggestion, even if it is a bit close to what Sandeep does. But if this crew can give out one thing, it is Slow.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

Bandersnatch -  I keep trying to make this model work in my head, but it's just so, so squishy.  It can't pick a fight with something in it's own weight class since they can target it even while buried, and it has no good way to stay alive.  

I agree with a lot of the Neverborn things, but this one I'm quite dubious of. Bandersnatch/Widow Weaver combo has been insanely strong every time I've run it. It is super hard to kill a Bandersnatch considering it only costs 7 stones (don't forget you have to account for chasing it across the board). Turf war corner deployment with bandy + widow was pretty insane in GG0 for example. Then once it has served its purpose of drawing enemy models to somewhere awkward on the board, you can let it die (it is only seven stones).

It is weak to alpha strikers, but other than that I can't think of any matchup where I'm sad to have it (as long as the schemes/strats call for that type of model).

EDIT: should clarify most of the card I consider irrelevant. I basically use its teleport to web markers, its two bonus actions, and interact. It might as well not have the melee attack and it'd basically be the same model to me.

[RisingPhoenix]

@MuMantai - that was the joke.  It's just actually what Sandeep does.  He uses Ice Golems better than the Ice master (and Fire Golems better than the fire master).

The thing about Ice Golems is that their melee is actually all that.  They're one of the hardest hitters in the game.  But in the OP you can see Shin complaining that Archie is too slow with Mv 4, a Leap, and Rush.  Ice Golems are like that, but with no Leap, and no Rush.  

I'm just scared to buff them because Sandeep can already move elementals around like mad with all his obeys.  I think it has to be tied to Rasputina somehow (and maybe Kaerys, although she's in a better spot - and Fire Golems are better anyway).  Hmmm, her bonus?

Shatter - Add  To Action, add Trigger: Before removing the ice pillar, friendly December units within 12 may push up to their Mv towards it.  Then remove the pillar.

That gives the crew more mobility, but not excessively so.  

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

My proposals regarding Rasputina:

* Change or expand her leader Ability with one of the following: if an Ice Pillar is removed by an enemy action, the enemy suffers 2 irreducible damage; or enemy models need to disard a card as an additional cost of removing Ice Pillar with their actions; or after deployment, create 2 ice pillars anywhere on your half of the table.

* Change her bonus action. Currently it's one of the worst bonus actions printed on a master. Why it removes Ice Pillar is beyond my comprehension. I propose one of the following changes: make it resisted by Mv, so it can be used as a follow up after shockwaves; or remove the "remove Ice Pillar" clause.

As for the others, I think that Snow Storm should be able to command himself. December Acolytes needs some defensive tech. In beta they had an ability which granted them cover if they were near terrain - it would be a small buff, but it will be probably enough to let them see the start of turn 2 if deployed from the shadows.

[eddy]

Also ice dancers should get some buff. Maybe allow icepath target scheme markers

[RisingPhoenix]

Actually, I feel like each faction (except Ten Blunders) has crews that need some substantial tweaks.  

Arcanists:

Mei Fang - Kind of bad.  I've played against her twice, and she's not that impression.  Schemes and Stones has a breakdown where they more-or-less say the same thing.

Rasputina - Needs a lot, as we're discussing

Marcus - Time will tell if the buff to his minions helped him out.  Freely admit I haven't had much experience here, but discussions with Neverborn/Arcanist players is that he's a bit weak.

Rezzers:
Seamus - Great model, mediocre crew.  I think I've seen him more as a second master, or in a crew that's 30 soulstones of versatile models.  His keyword needs help.  

Reva - Okay, the master is now good, and... see Seamus.  Most of her keyword minions need to be tweaked like hell.

Dr. McMorning - I wasn't impressed.  Perverse metabolism barely played a role in games.  Flesh Constructs are amazing, but the rest of the keyword didn't sell me.  Might be a bad experience, but I feel like they don't actually score that easily, it was very easy to use ticky-tacky condition removal and timing poison deaths to deny them points, and they don't seem to have any passible scheme runners.

Neverborn:

Nekima - It'd be cool if she could be the one to take the charge action generated by Enraged by Insolence.  I feel like it'd be a good change that'd make the crew totally viable.

Euripides - The return of the "surprisingly squishy models".  Maybe he just needs some model releases.  1 Henchmen, 0 Enforcers?  He needs a box.  Okay, I'm just chucking him in "Needs a Box".  Also, Minions are like 1 Soulstone too expensive this edition, across the board.  It's something they should look at some day.

Marcus (See above etc. etc. although I think he's better in Neverborn post Spider Swarm nerf)

Outcasts:

Von Schill/Viks/Tara - Went into more above.  They all need some flavor of help.  

Gremlins:

Wong - So close to being good.  Just need to tweak and playtest.  Crew-wide fast is scary, there's a right balance there.

Ulix - Not actually a bad crew, but why is Grow Up Strong so bad?  You need an 8 to upgrade a model two soulstones.  A 12 to grow it 4.  It does have an obey, but that costs a tome or soulstone (for a 2 soulstone upgrade and a master action...).   And he's honestly psychotically card hungry.  I know I complained about summoners getting card draw, but he has 2 actions on the front of his card that take cards, and no good draw way.  Add  to Slop 'em Up 

Ten Thunders:

Fuck Ten Thunders, thank you for listening to my TED talk

Guild:

Daschel is missing a crew box, is probably OP once it comes out because got zounds of card draw. Hoffman is still Hoffman, therefore he's Hoffmanny

Please fix the rest of your crews, kthxbai. Perdita, Lady J, Sonnia, it's a sea of dreck.  They feel like they have no intention of working together as a crew (Lady J's crew has damn anti-synergy with its own models, that's not fucking okay) or bad mechanics.  Nellie has a crew full of the most suicidal models I've ever seen, and Lucius is probably better in Neverborn because Neverborn models are better (Also I hate playing against him but whatever, people like doing that shit).  

Actually, hold on, let me pause.  Lucius.  Why do Guild Lawyers get +2 to cost when Obeying to set off abilities?  There is one 7 cost and one 6 cost model in the crew.  The 6 cost is the Guild Lawyer.  Are you actually trying to encourage them to obey each other to obey other models?  Why not just say "They can be treated as having higher cost", period?  They need a 9 to obey even if they Tools the mask, this isn't a free action by any means.  Also, why does the crew literally fall apart if Agent 46 dies?  

Just.  Fix.  It.

[esqulax]

On 6/5/2020 at 2:26 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, Neverborn! Neverborn needs buffs far more than Ressers. It's been a while since I've played them, but...

Marcus
Myranda should be able to change into Sabretooh cerebus at the very least. I'm sure others have better ideas though.

Titania
Bultungin, Aeslin, Waldgeist, and Autumn Knights always seemed a bit weak to me, but I don't know the crew that well.

Pandora
The crew always feels a bit underwhelming to me, but others quite like it. Probably buff sorrows, and maybe Lyssa. Would have to be careful to not make the crew too mobile, though. That key weakness is what prevents it from being OP.

Other crews probably deserve buffs too, but I don't know them very well!

I definitely agree with these. 

Marcus
I have played this keyword several times and the one thing that always bothers me a ton in practice is how card hungry it is. You have so many abilities requiring you to discard cards while also having a ton of target numbers requiring  6-7s. Every time I play this keyword I run out of cards blazingly fast and if my opponent has anything with terrifying or abilities requiring me to discard cards I just start weeping. Marcus himself also has the problem that after you give out your important upgrades, he doesn't really do that much. Usually I just put wings on him and fly around and scheme, but that is a pretty boring use of a master. One of my opponents once made the point that "you can play Marcus and make your models good by giving them upgrades, or you can just play a keyword with good models from the get go" 

A lot of the models in the keyword are also very squishy and some are just plain bad like Cojo and Molemen 

I would really like a redesign that gave Marcus something to do other than handing our upgrades, made his crew less card hungry and made pretty much all of his models (With the exception of Paul, Vogel and Scorpius) more viable without upgrades. Mostly by giving them a small defensive buff.

Titania
I really want this keyword to be good, because Titania herself is so amazing. Every ability on her card is so much better on the table than you imagine it to be when you first read it. Sadly all models in her keyword are either "meh" or "decent". She doesn't have anything that is better than that, which is a problem when you look at the models some other keywords have access to. 

Bultunguin and Waldgeists are both pretty bad for their cost. 

Autumn Knights and Rougarou are both ok, but they are "just" beater models. I feel for a model that doesn't do much other than close combat, it needs to either have some strong movement tricks or be a lot better at combat than either of these models are. 

Aeslin is also fine, although slow and squishy which is usually a poor pairing. If left unanswered she can get stuff done though. 

Killjoy is way too slow and squishy at df 4 and terrifying 11. Sure he can come back with his Blood Sacrifice, but Fae have no good targets for the upgrade, so if you want him back at 4hp you will end up sacrificing a 7ss autumn knight or 8ss rougarou usually. 

I would really like a redesign that gave Fae back the scheme marker theme they had in m2. Not only could this help all the models in the keyword that are sorta plain, but it would also give them a specific role in Neverborn which I feel the faction is sorely lacking. 

Pandora
Of the keywords here she is definitely the one I have played the least. I know other players like her a lot, but I just don't see it. Pandora herself is pretty good, but just like Titania I feel her keyword is lacking (Other than Candy. Candy is crazy). I won't go into much detail here though, because I feel like I am in the minority on this. 

I would like a redesign of the whole Misery ability. Especially since I find it to be a very inelegant design as it is now. Preferably I would like something where it could stack like in the old days, so Pandora could once again be Neverborns bubble punisher. 

Nekima

Lelu/Lilitu. These have all the squishy downsides of the rest of the nephilim without any kind of speed to make up for it. As I mentioned earlier slow + squishy is a bad combo. 

Terror Tots/Corrupted Hounds. I just struggle to see a purpose for these whatsoever. As a whole I feel like Wyrd failed to account for the huge indirect nerf that cheap models got when pass tokens were introduced, which has lead to a lot of cheap models in m3 being terrible. 

I would like to see a redesign where the keyword wasn't so dependent on spamming out focus with Black Blood Shamans. It would also be very nice if Tots and Hounds could be made into cheap and effective scheme runners as this is definitely something Neverborn lacks.  


Asylum/Half Bloods 
Someone at Wyrd must really hate these models. They were terrible in m2 and in m3 Orderlies/Blood Wretches are both in the run for the title of worst model in the game. A case can be made for Angel Eyes and Dr. Grimwell, but other than those, there really isn't anything worthwhile here.  

I would like to see a redesign where Wyrd does anything. Literally anything. They can't get any worse. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

One idea for the card hungry crews like Marcus is to give them the same treatment as Reva.

Reva and co. Get a ton of positive flips (focus, plus from burning, etc). This helps cancel out how card hungry they are, as they flip good cards off the top of the deck more often.

I like this more than just giving every crew card draw.

[RisingPhoenix]

21 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One idea for the card hungry crews like Marcus is to give them the same treatment as Reva.

Reva and co. Get a ton of positive flips (focus, plus from burning, etc). This helps cancel out how card hungry they are, as they flip good cards off the top of the deck more often.

I like this more than just giving every crew card draw.

Agreed.  Card draw makes any crew better, as long as you want to make flips, discard cards, or hit TNs.  It's a very lazy way to buff a crew, because hand management is also one of the biggest skills in Malifaux.  It's also time intensive, and adds extra decision making every time you draw a good card (checking for relevant triggers, etc).   It's not a surprise many of the best crews have great card draw.  

If we're talking sweeping changes, I wouldn't mind an across the board re-evaluation of card draw in crews where it's not a theme (So'mer, Sandeep, Von Schtook, Hamlin, Etc.).   And maybe switch some costs from "discard a card" to "take damage".  Not all of them, but for instance Friekorps can take 1 damage to hold onto one of Von Schill's upgrades.  That's a cool design that more models could use rather than having 18 discard a card effects.  

Other costs could involve gaining a condition like Staggered, Injured, or Stunned - another good design that's used in only a few places.

[Jesy Blue]

3 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Not all of them, but for instance Friekorps can take 1 damage to hold onto one of Von Schill's upgrades.  That's a cool design that more models could use rather than having 18 discard a card effects. 

You don't want to have that be too prevalent, as Shielded is a thing... even in Freikorps.

[Da Git]

On 6/9/2020 at 12:15 AM, RisingPhoenix said:

Tara - General

Tara's crew got nerfed heavily in GG1.  Combined with a model that already didn't work, she lost a lot.  She needs some help to get back to playable.

 

Aionus - Aionus used to be the heart and soul of the Tara crew.  Bad attack (for a 10 stone unit), pretty squishy, but he enabled summons, and gave you pass tokens to control activation.  Protecting him was paramount.  Now?  He doesn't do any of that.  He has to get back his role as a denial piece.

Buffering - change so that it works without pass tokens - he can just make people not activate fast units until non-fast units have activated.  

Sever Timeline - Remove pass token trigger.  Add trigger to apply injured 2.

 

Talos - In some iteration of the playtest game, maybe Tara could keep half the enemy crew buried.  If so, then Talos might have been decent.  As it is, he's terrible.  Just terrible.  

Flames of the Void - Whenever an enemy model becomes buried, it gains burning +1.  At the start of this model's activation, all buried models take burning damage.

Into the Furnace - Stat 6 vs Wp.  

Stats: Bump to Df 5.  

I like all of these ideas. Especially the Aionus ones to make him useful again. Agree that the crew was guttered by the nerf to him.

The only thing I'd change to these ideas is to change Into the Furnce to be stat 3, but attack Size. I mean he's picking them up and throwing them into a furnace... how does willpower stop that??

[Regelridderen]

On 6/9/2020 at 7:54 AM, Nagi21 said:

Woes - Grouping them all into one here since it's an overall issue.  Misery isn't really very good.  The reason people think pandora is really good, is that she still devours low WP models due to opportunist and stunned, so her counter matchups look good.  It's rare to see someone play bubble Dora like back in 2e.  The fact that you can't proc multiple miseries at once, combined with the once per activation restriction make it just an incidental ability.  

Sorrows/Lyssa/Iggy/Aversions - The low cost Woes lack... something.  They die to a stiff breeze or any kind of focused attack from a model, but don't really provide anything other than Misery auras (see above).  Unless Misery gets buffed, the low cost woes need something to make them a good alternative to Elite Dora crews.

Bandersnatch -  I keep trying to make this model work in my head, but it's just so, so squishy.  It can't pick a fight with something in it's own weight class since they can target it even while buried, and it has no good way to stay alive.  

I agree on the general Notion that Misery doesn’t need the restriction - it was a last minute panic nerf, they didn’t think properly through. (They realized Iggy would be abusive in Kaeris).
 

This of course had a huge and negative impact on the minions, part of why I only use Sorrows is because, they at least have the ability to trigger Misery themselves, so I agree that Aversions and Lyssa are pretty meh - but Iggy is sworn by by many, he packs a big punch for a small model, he works great in countering schemers, and he’s got three actions.

Bandersnatch could use a little bump defensively, when buried. But the key is to isolate your target, I’ve had the Bandersnatch as key in taking out models like GG0 Yasunori, he didn’t like those negative flips, the distracted the poison the injured and the constant damage, but Bandy needs support. He softens the target up for someone else to make the blow - even if that someone is just a new summon.

[FrostHunter]

On 6/9/2020 at 7:54 AM, Nagi21 said:

Waldgeists - These really need a cost reduction I think.  Mv 4 is painful and they don't do anything but sit around and tank, which is fine, but at 6 I could get just as much tankiness with offensive power included in an Autumn Knight for 1ss extra.

I always dreamed about germinate getting trigger that would allow Walgeist to take attack action against model b2b (ot within 2"?) with underbrush marker. Or give them ability (or trigger) to turn all underbrushes markers into hazardous (that could be op). I would be glad for something like this eEven if germinate would be once per turn without cost reduction for them. Maybe with changing that Waldgeist would have stat 6 (now it's 5) in germinate and autumn knight stat 5 (now it's 6).

[Nagi21]

5 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

I agree on the general Notion that Misery doesn’t need the restriction - it was a last minute panic nerf, they didn’t think properly through. (They realized Iggy would be abusive in Kaeris).
 

This of course had a huge and negative impact on the minions, part of why I only use Sorrows is because, they at least have the ability to trigger Misery themselves, so I agree that Aversions and Lyssa are pretty meh - but Iggy is sworn by by many, he packs a big punch for a small model, he works great in countering schemers, and he’s got three actions.

Bandersnatch could use a little bump defensively, when buried. But the key is to isolate your target, I’ve had the Bandersnatch as key in taking out models like GG0 Yasunori, he didn’t like those negative flips, the distracted the poison the injured and the constant damage, but Bandy needs support. He softens the target up for someone else to make the blow - even if that someone is just a new summon.

God forbid you can't bring a specific keyword into a faction.  Wonder what that must feel like... 🙄 Nerf an entire keyword for a 6ss model.

Anyway enough half-sarcasm.  Iggy's OK but again, stiff breeze = dead, and his defensive trigger is easily ignored by your opponent (you don't have to do anything with said trigger, just declare it).

To be honest I just put Bandersnatch on that list because I've never seen anybody use it.  It seems like to get the most out of him  you need Widow, but since Widow's good on her own and dreamer has better options at that price point, he seems risky as is.  It might be a case of he's good, but the alternatives are great.

[Regelridderen]

@Nagi21 Iggy and ‘dora would have auto-killed anything in Burning hazardous terrain without the nerf - So it’s probably for the best if not perfect. 😜