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Models and keywords that need a boost/redesign


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So, these are my toughs collected over the past 4 months, during which I've been playing a lot in Vassal (up to 4 games/week once¬†ūüėÖ). With the (hopefully soon)¬†release or Explorer's Society, I would like to mention some keyword and models that are quite "on the bottom of the table" regarding their performance. I will only talk about those models and keywords that I played and played against multiple times, after sharing some toughs with my opponents after the games and after watching several games in Vassal.

Feel free to comment and add any other model that you believe are not good enough, reason it, and I'll edit this post and I'll add them. I don't have experience with all the keywords and factions (specially Ten Thunders and half of the Arcanist models).

Also, I would like to add that the game designers did an outstanding job creating unique mechanics in M3E and balancing things out. In general I believe this is a great edition, better than M2E (even if I loved all the pop-cult references in 2 edition and the funny and fluff-wise amazing names for weapons, attacks, conditions, etc.). I just think it could use some polish, making those keywords that are in disadvantage in most of their matches become better, improving models that never or almost never see the table or who's synergies doesn't work.

Wizz-Bang
I needs some small keyword redesign. The Injured in Wong doesn't make much sense and it comes from a time in the beta where that injured would have affected the simple duels of the shockwaves. The keyword needs to hurt themselves (while being quite squishy) in order to get full potential, to the point that requires specific set up in deployment and a turn 1 that is almost always the same. The issue is that this big amount of set up only allows the crew to keep working properly until turn 3-4 tops, when almost everyone would be dead, too far from Wong or too injured to take damage. This "fuel" on the form on glowy tokens runs out pretty quickly and then the whole crew starts underperforming. Also, Wong being the only model that can use glowy on enemy models feels quite bad.

  • Wong:
    The Injured in Wong doesn't make much sense and it comes from a time in the beta where that injured would have affected the simple duels of the shockwaves. Right now, Wong is more a support master than an offensive master, so having Injured as a trigger is not good if it's going to affect friendly models.
  • Taxidermist:
    You're paying at least 1 extra SS for the Stuffed Piglet. It's a 6-7ss models with an extra wound. Offensively he's decent, but he's very squishy for the price. He would need to squeal around with the defensive trigger, most of the time by using a Glowy token, for which he would have needed to suffer damage. This would reduce considerably his offensive efficiency, so they will be a minion that cost 8ss and has a damage track of 2/3/4. Some people would say that with the upgrade "Inferiority Complex" they become really good, and I completely disagree. They become really good for an 8ss model, but not for a 10ss model (upgrade is still 2ss), just compare them to the Emissary or any other 10ss model in the game.
  • Burt Jebsen:
    I wanna love him, after all, Big Trouble in Little China is one of my favorite movies, but again, another Wizz-Bang model that is not durable. There isn't any scenario where I would prefer to bring Gracie for the same cost or get two extra soulstones from somewhere and bring Alphonse.
    More interesting triggers in his gun or in his shockwave attack would make him work. I would like him to be more resilient (after all Jack Burton proved himself as quite Hard to Kill ūüėú ), but maybe that would make him a bit over the top, so at least improve his offensive toolkit a bit. I think Burt Jebsen is one of the best candidates to get use of Glowy in enemy models.
  • Lightning Bugs:
    From everything I've said so far, they're probably the ones in the better spot, but there is no reason to bring one when for 1ss more we have the Bokors, that they do everything better. These guys should have +2 stat in the heal, so at least they could fight for a spot vs a Bokor.
  • Olivia
    She's not that bad by herself, but for Wong's utility and damage output, she's very lackluster. The Spit Hogs are better at getting people together (it's a place, not a push, which it's already way better) and it's not only once per turn (which I understand is to prevent being obeyed by the Bokors). At least this lady should have Manipulative (or any sort of protective ability) to prevent her from dying to a light breeze before being able to take advantage of the front of her card or even Set Charge.
  • Pigapult:


Big Hat

  • Banjonistas & Old Cranky:
    The design on the action's face of the card is that poor that it could be empty and nothing would change in the 90% of the games.
    Rebel Yell requires a :tome and the range is not that great, so it never happened in any of my games. Maybe because I would always bring BBB, since when I play Big Hat I really feel like needing that extra card from Arcane Reservoir and BBB is great at removing conditions.
    Pluck the Strings is very situational, the range is low and the impact is quite low too. 
    Old Cranky's Obey gets outshined by the Gremlin Criers and if you have the high :mask in hand, probably you'll want to be using it for a Ricochet in somebody else or for a Squeal in Som'er.
    Frantic Search is terrible ability. First of all, in a best case scenario you'll be using it 4 times/game. There are no corpses withing 2" of Old Cranky in turn 1, and probably neither in turn 2. There are also way less corpse markers in the game that in M2E, so less chances to use the ability.
    If you get lucky, that would mean 2ss/game for overexposing a support model that cost 5ss and has 4Wd (yes, HtK, but it's not going to change much), since he would be where somebody else died.

Tricksy

  • Sparks:¬†I heard he's not bad in Foundry, but in Bayou his only purpose is to put explosives in somebody else, since he's too squishy after being demoted to Enforcer to survive enough to take advantage of Hostile Work Environment or Scrapyard Mines. Maybe he could gain Full Pack as a small buff to his survivality.


Tri-Chi
Most of the the Tri-Chi models can't make use of Poison and the keyword lacks card draw to hit all the different TNs that they have. What about fixing bot issues making "A Toast" work like Wong's The Glow? Maybe on a trigger that it's only once per turn, to prevent becoming abusive. For simplicity, adding the list of models that are going to get poison and can't do anything with it (5/11 models):

  • Apprentice Wesley
  • Popcorn Turner
  • Whiskey Golem
  • Tanuki
  • Moon Shinobi¬†


Forgotten

  • Archie:¬†A nerf was necessary, this nerf was disproportionate:
    • Lost the :mask on the leap: Totally deserved
    • Lost ruthless: Well, he has Wp 4, how is he going to hit people if he can't gain focus.
    • -1Mv but Rush: This is actually manageable
    • Lost the :ram¬†in the Hurl Corpse: Was it that necessary?
    • Mournful memories: This ability shouldn't require more than a 3. Seriously, a TN that requires a 7 just to get a :+flip¬†to the attack or a suit, only to the next action, not even during his whole activation? If at least it were a :+flip and the suit, I can see how it could require a 5-6, but not a 7.
  • Phillip and the Nanny:¬†A model that has Manipulative and Boring Conversation, while having Df4 is a bit anti-synergistic¬†

Revenant
The keyword in general lacks any sort of card draw, while being resource hungry. They need corpses, they need pyres, they need to discard cards for Take the Hit and keep Reva and any other important pieces alive, and they're not good at doing it. Cremation is worse than any other terrain marker generation ability, since it requires a medium card and a corpse marker, while more than bein a benefit to have the Pyre marker, feels like a requirement to make the crew works. Also, only the Draugr and Vincent have the ability, two models that (for their cost) they should be keeping their actions on hitting the enemy.

  • Lampads:¬†It has been discussed a lot, they have the worst offensive stats of the 8ss minions in the whole game. Their Demise ability removes the most important resource on Reva's crews, the pyre markers.
  • Mourners:¬†They had a very small niche in GG0, but they're definitely not worth their cost, neither in Revenant or in Redchapel. They're quite tanky for their cost, I'll give them that, but it also makes me wonder how these models cost the same as a Shieldbearer and have +2Wd and +1Df (Disguised instead of Armor and HtW instead of HtK)
  • Vincent:¬†He's too resource hungry for a model that has a quite low damage track (2/3/4), he's tanky but he doesn't like to be engage due to his range 0" in mele. If he can shoot someone, that model is within charge range to go engage Vincent and make him almost useless a single turn. It would be better if he had gunfighter and lost completely the melee attack, adding a trigger in mask to his shooting action to give Staggered.


December
The worst keyword in Arcanist and easily one of the top5 worst. First of all, it's nice that they have a thematic, fluff/lore-wise ability like Grim Feast, but again, this is not M2E, there are way less corpses and having a very situational free action that occupies 1 line of text, leaves you some space to put something else in the cards.

  • Rasputina: She is one of the most resource hungry masters I've ever seen, specially taking into account that the resource generation in keyword is almost non-existent. She really likes to have focus in order to get at least a blast, and she has to discard a card to attack through ice pillars if you want to declare triggers. The Damage track is also quite unimpressive (2/3:blast/4:blast:blast). Harsh Winter is an "ok" ability if she's the leader, but the opponent will discard low cards to prevent his big beaters and key models to gain slow, just remove the Ice Pillars that are causing trouble with low cost models that have nothing better to do or even bringing someone with Demolitionist (which will completely avoid the Slow) or Blow it to Hell.
  • Wendigo: Comes for free, can create Ice Pillars, can be used as an Ice Pillar for a couple of models and when it dies, creates another Ice Pillar. Also it's not insignificant, which can help sometimes.
  • Snow Storm: A really decent model all rounded. Good damage output, with the ideal conditions can get a soulstone back and keeps everybody kind-of-safe from ranged attacks while helping to move the rest of the crew.
  • Blessed of December: A fast and expensive scheme runner that can get some serious damage. I see why it makes the cut for so many Marcus lists. I can see her(?) running with a Soulstone Cache to ensure those Pounces for extra mobility and get a :+flip to the attack. Probably the best model in keyword, and it performs better with another master, so nothing else to add.
  • Ice Golem: Is this the worst of the Golems? I'm not saying he's bad, but he needs some set up to make him shine, and it's quite easy to see it coming and prevent it. I don't know much about the Metal Golem, but the Fire one is definitely better.
  • Ice Gamin: I don't see me hiring one of this in any situation. I would prefer to have 4 extra SS, put and upgrade on someone or bring a Soulstone Miner, which in turn 2 it would already be at the same cost. They should be summonable somehow.
  • Hoarcat: Another scheme runner, in theory quite resilient, with almost no damage (Tundra Hunter is wasted ink on this card) and that doesn't bring any utility at all. I could consider it as a pick
  • Ice Dancer: Scheme runner with a good movement trick, but that feels is going to die to light shooting. Ice Path is good, but requires careful planning. Two :ToS-Fast:¬† that require corpses.
  • Silent One: The're a reliable source of Ice Pillars outside of Rasputina, so there are a must. I don't thing they're good, it's more that the Keyword lacks of better options. Healing is nice, and also the ability to use SS, although I don't see it using a soulstone on them for almost any reason.
  • December Acolyte: They look decent on paper, but complicate to fit into a list, unless you're facing a crew with lots of armor/shielded. Having Tools for the Job is nice, but I wish they had more interesting triggers. They could get Concealment of Stealth while being close to an Ice Pillar, which would help with their Df/Wp5

Part of the problem is maybe that some of the models (Ice Dancers, Hoarcat and Ice Gamin) are bad due to try to make them more balance for the other masters that can field them (Colette, Marcus, Sandeep).


Marshall
A keyword that gets multiple benefits from having corpses in play, but that for what its two main beaters (Lady Justice and The Judge) don't have the chance to drop corpse markers.

Family
Pistolero de Latigo: They're too squishy, only 4 Wds with Reckless and bad defensive stats (Df/Wp 4). Also I imagine that "Biting Insult" was there from the old times when the crew had some synergies with pass tokens.

Fae/Savage
Bultulgin: They're too squishy to be decent scheme runners, even at the cost of 5ss. Df 5 and Wp 4 with no defensive ability to protect them but an ability to that makes him damage in order to try to stay alive

Freikorps
Lazarus: His ability of rapid reconfiguration has a TN too high for not having the trigger printed. For his cost, his damage output is quite limited.

 

To this list, I would like to mention some models that come from this other thread and I think that they're quite bad: 

  • Molemen
  • Desperate Mercenary
  • Dogs (Canine Remains Guild Hounds) I actually think that for the cost and being summonable, nothing else can be asked from them.
  • Talos: His attack action against Wp should be stat 6. Maybe the lack of interactions within keyword is due to the keyword having a very small pool of models and it will be fixed in the future.


 

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Well reading through some of this thread I am seriously going, what? Wow? Some of the stuff you want buffed is crazy. Von schill needs something for Lazarus but otherwise is one of my top picks i

So, these are my toughs collected over the past 4 months, during which I've been playing a lot in Vassal (up to 4 games/week once¬†ūüėÖ). With the (hopefully soon)¬†release or Explorer's Society, I would l

I'll limit myself to NVB, since that's what I know.  I'm sure most of this will be dismissed with "wah Dreamer OP wah": Nekima - A bad model as a master.  Sure she has a stat 7 attack, but it's 3

Forgotten/Archie
Haven't fully tested it, but have gone 8-0 twice in a tournament since the changes.

I think Forgotten are probably still middle tier and not top priority for a buff.

That said the removal of mask is a pretty terrible change as I've said before. Basically either remove leap entirely and redesign the model, or leave leap alone. This weird limbo of an unreliable leap seems bad. But don't want to restart that whole debate. Other models are higher priority.

EDIT: Maybe buff Philip and the Nanny.

EDIT2: My favourite 'fix' for Forgotten is still to change the Crooligan Fading to hand out a suit. Then Archie doesn't need mask-leap built in (so other crews don't want him), but Forgotten can give him a leap via crooligan fading. Maybe something like "when a crooligan discards a card, a friendly non-master may add the suits to its duel totals for the rest of the turn." Would also be a big buff to rabble risers, although perhaps too big a buff... They might go from 0 play to heaps of play.

Redchapel:
Nerf Seamus secret passage to once a turn, boost everything else.

Revenant:
Yes Lampads and maybe Mourners should be buffed, and I think Draugr and Shieldbearers could use a tinker (not a buff or nerf).

Cremate needs to be reworked (probably made into a bonus and move it from Draugr to Lampad).

Vincent is already quite strong. I'd be wary of buffing him, but maybe tinkering to make him a bit smoother to play would be okay. I'd rather no changes than bad changes for Vincent.

Revenant could easily go from "kinda wonky, doesn't quite work" to "wtf overpowered." They have already done well in some tournaments.

In general it would be nice if Revenant's synergies worked as smoothly as Tormented, but doesn't seem likely this edition. I still think the best thing for the crew thematically would be to drop pyre markers and make all corpse markers count as hazardous burning when Reva is leader.

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I've been playing a but of December on Vassal and I'll echo most of your points and add some more. 

1. December's drains more of their own resources than their opponents. 

2. They have a lot of 50mm models, and often mess up their own charge lanes. 

3. In addition to 2, December oftens gives their opponents cover. In order to benefit from Harsh Winter or Sacrifice to December, the model needs to be near a Pillar, which often gives it cover since all your ranged attacks are projectiles. 

4. They have almost 0 useful bonus actions. Most turns I dont use any bonus actions on any models, because they are all extrememly situational and only moderately useful. 

5. Snow Storm sucks. He's very squishy and doesnt being much for 9 stones except anti-shooting. Mostly you hire him to shockwave your crew twice turn 1 and thats it. 

My potential solutions:

1. Allow Ice Mirror models to create a Pillar for free at the start of deployment

2. Allow the Ice Gamin and Golem to move through Ice Pillars. Alternatively, make it a leader ability for Raspy

3. Allow them to ignore Ice Pillars for determining cover

4. They need new bonus actions. Horcats should have Ambush definitely, and shouldnt need to discard a card for it when near an Ice Pillar. Tbh, what I would do is change Ice Pillars to a bonus action. This relieves some pressure and limits the number of Ice Pillars you can put out, so they can be better.

5. Snow Storm should get Hard to Wound if Wyrd wants him to be mele focused, or his bonus actiom should be able to target any minion or non-master December model (including himself) if they want him to fill a supportive role.

Thoughts?

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Oh, Neverborn! Neverborn needs buffs far more than Ressers. It's been a while since I've played them, but...

Marcus
Myranda should be able to change into Sabretooh cerebus at the very least. I'm sure others have better ideas though.

Titania
Bultungin, Aeslin, Waldgeist, and Autumn Knights always seemed a bit weak to me, but I don't know the crew that well.

Pandora
The crew always feels a bit underwhelming to me, but others quite like it. Probably buff sorrows, and maybe Lyssa. Would have to be careful to not make the crew too mobile, though. That key weakness is what prevents it from being OP.

Other crews probably deserve buffs too, but I don't know them very well!

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6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, Neverborn! Neverborn needs buffs far more than Ressers. It's been a while since I've played them, but...

Marcus
Myranda should be able to change into Sabretooh cerebus at the very least. I'm sure others have better ideas though.

Titania
Bultungin, Aeslin, Waldgeist, and Autumn Knights always seemed a bit weak to me, but I don't know the crew that well.

Pandora
The crew always feels a bit underwhelming to me, but others quite like it. Probably buff sorrows, and maybe Lyssa. Would have to be careful to not make the crew too mobile, though. That key weakness is what prevents it from being OP.

Other crews probably deserve buffs too, but I don't know them very well!

I appreciate the feedback, but let's keep it to the models/keywords that you know well, that are underperforming and you feel like need a buff because you've played them many times (or agaisnt them).

Bultulgin definitely field in that category, how could I have forgotten them? Maybe because it's been a loooong time since I've put them on a table (or a Vassal map).

Aeslin is mediocre in the current GG1. She was amazing for some schemes in GG0. Autumn Knights are okay, you're not going to field 3 (neither 2) but they aren't bad. Same for Waldgeist, they're not bad. But in general, most of the Fae models could use some sort of trigger in their Germinate ability.

Myranda can become a Cerberus when Marcus plays as arcanist :P

I played against Pandora at least 3 times in 2020 and it never felt she was underperforming. She put me into a lot of troubles I always won by a small margin (last 2 times that I remember, once vs Reva and another one vs Wong), purely out of luck or misplay of my opponent.

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FAMILY:

They really need some additions to the crew. Maybe new Minion who can be Scheme Runners and have enought surviving. Anyway:

Pistolero de Látigo: Poor stats for a poor Minion. He has only 4 wounds so if you do :ToS-Fast:Reckles he can die with a minimun damage. A Fistfull of Scrip is an abilitie that never happens, his attack action has a 4 stat and deal 1/2/4 that could become 2/3/5 with critical strike (the 25% of the times).

I would rise his wounds to a minimun of 5 and give it to them a way to heal. And i'd change A Fistfull os Scrip for another abilitie to drop schemes without killing.

Ni√Īo Ortega: i would become Minion (1)

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1 hour ago, belorey said:

FAMILY:

They really need some additions to the crew. Maybe new Minion who can be Scheme Runners and have enought surviving. Anyway:

Pistolero de Látigo: Poor stats for a poor Minion. He has only 4 wounds so if you do :ToS-Fast:Reckles he can die with a minimun damage. A Fistfull of Scrip is an abilitie that never happens, his attack action has a 4 stat and deal 1/2/4 that could become 2/3/5 with critical strike (the 25% of the times).

I would rise his wounds to a minimun of 5 and give it to them a way to heal. And i'd change A Fistfull os Scrip for another abilitie to drop schemes without killing.

Ni√Īo Ortega: i would become Minion (1)

Nino is fine, but Pistolers should probably have 5 Wds and/or HtK at the bare minimum.

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I agree with mostly all the said, but there's some points I'm not sure about. 

 

On 6/4/2020 at 11:12 PM, ShinChan said:

Lightning Bugs:
From everything I've said so far, they're probably the ones in the better spot, but there is no reason to bring one when for 1ss more we have the Bokors, that they do everything better. These guys should have +2 stat in the heal, so at least they could fight for a spot vs a Bokor.

I've seen at least 1 Bokor in every Gremlin list I've faced until now. This point maybe more a problem of the Bokor being too good than Lightning Bug being too bad. 

I would be not surprised if Bokors are hit by the nerf bat. 

 

On 6/4/2020 at 11:12 PM, ShinChan said:

I think Burt Jebsen is one of the best candidates to get use of Glowy in enemy models.

Agree with Burt Jebsen needing some buff, but I would prefer to see something playable also with Infamous. 

I would add Freikorps as a crew that drains lots of cards and needs some improvement in card generation. 

 

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On 6/5/2020 at 2:40 AM, ShinChan said:

Bultulgin definitely field in that category, how could I have forgotten them? Maybe because it's been a loooong time since I've put them on a table (or a Vassal map).

Aeslin is mediocre in the current GG1. She was amazing for some schemes in GG0. Autumn Knights are okay, you're not going to field 3 (neither 2) but they aren't bad. Same for Waldgeist, they're not bad. But in general, most of the Fae models could use some sort of trigger in their Germinate ability.

Butulgin needs some form of group movement then their pack mentality would work better so it would be able to protect them little more (always thinking how would they work with chaingang) or something else, but definetly they need some love. I almost see no reason for hiring Walgeist (which is sad, beacause i love those models) when i have Autumn Knights (and don't even ask about their role in Swampfiends - i see none for them) even if they are capable of dropping 2 schemes markers in one turn. Love the idea for giving them some triggers for their Germinate Action.

I didn't played in gg1 with Aeslin, but i always enjoyed her Decay spam and Autumn Knight was quite solid minion.

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6 minutes ago, FrostHunter said:

Butulgin needs some form of group movement then their pack mentality would work better so it would be able to protect them little more (always thinking how would they work with chaingang) or something else, but definetly they need some love. I almost see no reason for hiring Walgeist (which is sad, beacause i love those models) when i have Autumn Knights (and don't even ask about their role in Swampfiends - i see none for them) even if they are capable of dropping 2 schemes markers in one turn. Love the idea for giving them some triggers for their Germinate Action.

I didn't played in gg1 with Aeslin, but i alwayes enjoyed her Decay spam and Autumn Knight was quite solid minion.

Bultungin's Pack Mentality is only during their activation, so it doesn't protect them anyway, it needs HtK at the bare minimum and even that won't do much to make it compete with a real scheme runner.

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2 hours ago, LexLock said:

Bultungin's Pack Mentality is only during their activation, so it doesn't protect them anyway, it needs HtK at the bare minimum and even that won't do much to make it compete with a real scheme runner.

Holy Molly Mama Maglione! I feel like I always covered this section of Pact Mentality with finger or so while reading this ability, so i didn't see this.

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You could buff a lot of Guild's keywords. In general, the faction is way to squishy and doesn't do anything better than any other faction. Minions across the board could use a bump up. Versatiles aren't great and their 2 best models got hit in the most recent changes. In particular, I would say that the Frontier crew needs some pretty big changes. I know that all of the models for the crew aren't out yet, but that isn't an excuse for the existing models to be in the state they are in. 

Cornelius Bass- His design is weird to me. It seems like we were promised a terrain manipulation master and instead got a mid-range shooting master. His shotgun is good, but his other attack, caught in quicksand, just doesn't do enough. A master ap for a 1/2/3 damage track and injured +1 is pretty poor. Yes, it can move the enemy model, but they have to already be in severe terrain which means you probably need to be close enough to drop a dust marker. At which point, shooting them with the shotgun is really just better. You can try to stack injured with just Basse, but you're giving up shotgun attacks for it. The sandworm trigger is pretty sad with it's lackluster damage, once per turn usage, and the fact that it gets rid of the best part of the attack (the injured). The among the willows trigger on his attack assists the enemy by moving them to safety before making the terrain that they were in hazardous. I don't really get why that is a trigger on a master's attack action. Stoic nod is an action that really doesn't belong on a master's card. 1 ap for a 1/2/3 heal with no triggers?!?! There are minions out there with better heals than this (even some with triggers!). I think my biggest complaint is that the things that seem interesting about Basse's kit are pretty under powered and his other actions are pretty unexciting. 

Bernadette Basse- I've heard of some people getting use out of this model by tying up other small models and staying above hard to kill with the healing trigger on the knife attack. The best use I can see for this model is adding another way to displace enemies in corrupted leylines. She will generally die quickly though and really isn't comparable to a lot of other totems. 

Austringer- they are expensive for what they do. Their upgrade helps with survivability, but they are by no means tanky. 7 ss for a model that attempts to whittle away at opponents isn't great and that is all they have for actions...

Malifaux Raptor- This model has essentially been written out of the game. I can't every see myself hiring one and I'd rather use the austringer upgrade to save them from damage than to summon this. If you're not hiring it or summoning it in this crew, where does it see play? 

Frontiersman- They are a pretty poor minion that is still bad even after receiving a "buff." Sure, if you complete the proper set up you can pitch a card in a crew that doesn't have much access to card draw to attempt an attack with this model, but why would you? They essentially die in 1 hit but have an ability that improves healing done to them. I don't think you'll ever get a chance to heal them with 5 def, 5 wp, 5 wds, and only favorable terrain as defensive tech. They could at least be given hard to kill. 

Clockwork trap- A good way to hand over activation control to the opponent. They can help block in enemies on the right board but are really just speed bumpa. At 2ss it is hard to ask for much else though. 

Reichart- He seems good if a bit expensive. He also has stoic nod and it is not good on the card of a 10 ss henchman either. 

Pathfinder- Reasonable. I have a soft spot for this model since I liked playing it so much in 2e. A variety of bonus actions is good but you can only use 1 a turn. Hard to complain about options though. Relatively squishy. 

On 6/4/2020 at 6:49 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Forgotten/Archie

I don't know. I might be biased (I find that while some people think Arcanists get everything, I think that ressers are spoiled with everything they get) but I really don't think this crew needs anything. It has unique board control, card draw, tanky models, heavy hitters, irreducible damage, summoning, marker manipulation, and one of the few reactivates left in the game. Crooligans in particular are already amazing for 4ss and the "fix" would just add even more utility to them. 

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WOE - AVERSIONS really should have a way of stunning opponents, it's really what defines the 'dora crew, and why they never end up in my crew.

WOE¬†In the same way, I'd love to see the 'Once per Activation'-part of Misery go. It's fairly hard to abuse ‚Äď other than perhaps with Iggy in a Kaeris crew ‚Äď while it creates plenty of complication, where you need to define, who does what in what order, rather than just check whether the target is within an applicable Misery aura. Maybe a 'Once per Action' would be a better way.

-

MIMIC - DOPPLEGANGER is such an overlooked model. Allowing it to be 'Obey'-ed by Lawyers, would give it some attraction.

MIMIC - AGENT 46 The poor guy was too offensive and got hit nicely with the nerf bat, but as a guy whose defence was a strong offence, he lacks something to make up for it. Simply raising his Df to 6 could go a long way in justifying his presence on the board, making him a melee threat.

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Outcasts

In your vein, I'm only looking at things that need a redesign, not a numbers tweak in some way.  For instance, maybe a unit needs to be 8 stones instead of 9.  But these are things that are more major changes.

 

Tara - General

Tara's crew got nerfed heavily in GG1.  Combined with a model that already didn't work, she lost a lot.  She needs some help to get back to playable.

 

Aionus - Aionus used to be the heart and soul of the Tara crew.  Bad attack (for a 10 stone unit), pretty squishy, but he enabled summons, and gave you pass tokens to control activation.  Protecting him was paramount.  Now?  He doesn't do any of that.  He has to get back his role as a denial piece.

Buffering - change so that it works without pass tokens - he can just make people not activate fast units until non-fast units have activated.  

Sever Timeline - Remove pass token trigger.  Add trigger to apply injured 2.

 

Talos - In some iteration of the playtest game, maybe Tara could keep half the enemy crew buried.  If so, then Talos might have been decent.  As it is, he's terrible.  Just terrible.  

Flames of the Void - Whenever an enemy model becomes buried, it gains burning +1.  At the start of this model's activation, all buried models take burning damage.

Into the Furnace - Stat 6 vs Wp.  

Stats: Bump to Df 5.  

 

Von Schill - General

VS is a generalist master, who answers enemy models by... killing them.  In general, he needs something to really punish enemies.  He should get stunned OR injured on his grenades and land mines.  Right now those upgrades are almost never used.  I think Stunned is probably the way to go.  

Lazarus: Lazarus suffers from doing what the faction already does well (Shockwaves) decently.  Not even great.  He doesn't do anything else.  

Add: 40mm Cannon: Once per Activation.  6 vs. Df.  Range 12.  3/4/5 ignores armor.

 

Viktorias - General

A melee master, the Viks are okay, if fragile.  Their crew is a different story.  

Taelor: She does not do anything.  Welcome to Malifaux needs to be redesigned.  Perhaps triggering once per round, on any place.  Replace Bloody Fate trigger with Exorcism trigger (to preserve anti-summon flavor).  She's one of the worst 9 stone models in the game even after that.  Just... for the love of god give her something.  

Bishop: The 0" Melee on a melee beater was a funny experiment.  Haha.  Very funny.  Now give him 1" range like he's a real model, okay?  My elite 9-stone melee fighter should not be outranged by a goddamn TERROR TOT.  This is not okay.   He could probably also use something like Combat Finesse, since flavor wise he's the deadliest hand-to-hand fighter in the pits and all, but just giving him a range that's longer than Nekima's 4 stone Minion is fine.

Desperate Mercenaries - Please for the love of god make them Mv 5 so they're okay scheme runners.  Or make their gun 2/3/4.  Rapid fire on a stat 5 gun with 1 min damage is a sad joke.  In fact, take off the rapid fire, make them min 2.  They're so sickeningly bad.  No one takes these.  

Student of Conflict: She's as student?  Give her Analyze Weakness.  Also give her Stealth, or at least Disguised.  She dies to a stiff breeze.  I get that she's cheap, but "she's cheap" isn't a good response to "she does nothing and dies in one shot."  Because doing nothing means no one takes you.  

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On 6/6/2020 at 12:48 PM, belorey said:

FAMILY:

They really need some additions to the crew. Maybe new Minion who can be Scheme Runners and have enought surviving. Anyway:

Pistolero de Látigo: Poor stats for a poor Minion. He has only 4 wounds so if you do :ToS-Fast:Reckles he can die with a minimun damage. A Fistfull of Scrip is an abilitie that never happens, his attack action has a 4 stat and deal 1/2/4 that could become 2/3/5 with critical strike (the 25% of the times).

I would rise his wounds to a minimun of 5 and give it to them a way to heal. And i'd change A Fistfull os Scrip for another abilitie to drop schemes without killing.

Ni√Īo Ortega: i would become Minion (1)

 

On 6/6/2020 at 2:04 PM, trikk said:

Nino is fine, but Pistolers should probably have 5 Wds and/or HtK at the bare minimum.

I think HTK maybe it's a bit too much, but 5Wds and Grit(Hardened) or a Grit (For the Family): This models doesn't suffer Damage from his Reckless ability. 
What do you guys think?

On 6/7/2020 at 3:08 AM, Zebo said:

I agree with mostly all the said, but there's some points I'm not sure about. 

 

I've seen at least 1 Bokor in every Gremlin list I've faced until now. This point maybe more a problem of the Bokor being too good than Lightning Bug being too bad. 

I would be not surprised if Bokors are hit by the nerf bat. 

 

Agree with Burt Jebsen needing some buff, but I would prefer to see something playable also with Infamous. 

I would add Freikorps as a crew that drains lots of cards and needs some improvement in card generation. 

 

Freikorps with more Surge triggers, maybe? Bokors don't go on every list, Mah, Brewie and Som'er don't need them, I haven't seem them on a Zipp crew either. Ophelia likes them because they bring the healing that the keyword can't get and it enables a lot of card draw with Sammy. Ulix likes them for easy card draw, but paying 7ss for them OOK seems fine to me.

On 6/7/2020 at 5:12 AM, LexLock said:

Bultungin's Pack Mentality is only during their activation, so it doesn't protect them anyway, it needs HtK at the bare minimum and even that won't do much to make it compete with a real scheme runner.

What about just give them Stealth when they're in Concealing terrain and give them Chain Gang? That would increase their survivality and help the slower models of Fae and Savage crews? Also make easier to bring two and get the benefit from Pack Mentality. 

8 hours ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

You could buff a lot of Guild's keywords. In general, the faction is way to squishy and doesn't do anything better than any other faction. Minions across the board could use a bump up. Versatiles aren't great and their 2 best models got hit in the most recent changes. In particular, I would say that the Frontier crew needs some pretty big changes. I know that all of the models for the crew aren't out yet, but that isn't an excuse for the existing models to be in the state they are in. 

Cornelius Bass- His design is weird to me. It seems like we were promised a terrain manipulation master and instead got a mid-range shooting master. His shotgun is good, but his other attack, caught in quicksand, just doesn't do enough. A master ap for a 1/2/3 damage track and injured +1 is pretty poor. Yes, it can move the enemy model, but they have to already be in severe terrain which means you probably need to be close enough to drop a dust marker. At which point, shooting them with the shotgun is really just better. You can try to stack injured with just Basse, but you're giving up shotgun attacks for it. The sandworm trigger is pretty sad with it's lackluster damage, once per turn usage, and the fact that it gets rid of the best part of the attack (the injured). The among the willows trigger on his attack assists the enemy by moving them to safety before making the terrain that they were in hazardous. I don't really get why that is a trigger on a master's attack action. Stoic nod is an action that really doesn't belong on a master's card. 1 ap for a 1/2/3 heal with no triggers?!?! There are minions out there with better heals than this (even some with triggers!). I think my biggest complaint is that the things that seem interesting about Basse's kit are pretty under powered and his other actions are pretty unexciting. 

Bernadette Basse- I've heard of some people getting use out of this model by tying up other small models and staying above hard to kill with the healing trigger on the knife attack. The best use I can see for this model is adding another way to displace enemies in corrupted leylines. She will generally die quickly though and really isn't comparable to a lot of other totems. 

Austringer- they are expensive for what they do. Their upgrade helps with survivability, but they are by no means tanky. 7 ss for a model that attempts to whittle away at opponents isn't great and that is all they have for actions...

Malifaux Raptor- This model has essentially been written out of the game. I can't every see myself hiring one and I'd rather use the austringer upgrade to save them from damage than to summon this. If you're not hiring it or summoning it in this crew, where does it see play? 

Frontiersman- They are a pretty poor minion that is still bad even after receiving a "buff." Sure, if you complete the proper set up you can pitch a card in a crew that doesn't have much access to card draw to attempt an attack with this model, but why would you? They essentially die in 1 hit but have an ability that improves healing done to them. I don't think you'll ever get a chance to heal them with 5 def, 5 wp, 5 wds, and only favorable terrain as defensive tech. They could at least be given hard to kill. 

Clockwork trap- A good way to hand over activation control to the opponent. They can help block in enemies on the right board but are really just speed bumpa. At 2ss it is hard to ask for much else though. 

Reichart- He seems good if a bit expensive. He also has stoic nod and it is not good on the card of a 10 ss henchman either. 

Pathfinder- Reasonable. I have a soft spot for this model since I liked playing it so much in 2e. A variety of bonus actions is good but you can only use 1 a turn. Hard to complain about options though. Relatively squishy. 

I don't know. I might be biased (I find that while some people think Arcanists get everything, I think that ressers are spoiled with everything they get) but I really don't think this crew needs anything. It has unique board control, card draw, tanky models, heavy hitters, irreducible damage, summoning, marker manipulation, and one of the few reactivates left in the game. Crooligans in particular are already amazing for 4ss and the "fix" would just add even more utility to them. 

Guild squishy? We haven't been playing the same game. I've never played with or against Nellie or Basse, but for me the main issue for Guild is the lack of movement tricks, not being squishy. Reichart is a model with engagement of 2", enemy models can't declare defensive triggers, can't be moved, Grit(Hardened), HtK and Disguised.

With the Austringer, I do agree that if feels lackluster. Many 7ss minions are in a weird spot, specially when they're not support pieces. I don't know how to fix it, since I don't have any experience with the crew.

Basse: I agree with Stoic Nod without any interesting triggers feels terrible. Caught in Quicksand, with the last part looks plain bad, but the Sandworm trigger is really good (remember it goes against movement, so perfect to use it with Traps or the Rider). You're also understimating the possibilities of that place, imagine a river that cross the whole map, or a medium-big forest... 

Regarding the Forgotten part: Where are the tanky models? The henchman is papermade and everybody has Df4. Forgotten Marshal, Archie and the Rogue Necromancy are all Enforcers, so it's fairly easy to take them down putting a normal amount of effort into that (all are Df4 and Wp4/5 and Mv4/5). A big bunch of the crew also likes to stay together for the first 2-3 turns of the game, so Blasts and Shockwaves become quite dangerous. Yes, the crew has a significant amount of card draw, but because their abilities work by discarding cards and Molly's card draw at the begining of her activation is, most of the time, easy to avoid or limit. The reactivate is for Forgotten minion only, while Arcanists have it in a versatile model that can do at least it 3 times each game (you have an upgrade to do it more) and can reactivate any non-master model (while dropping a scheme marker).

Ressers are not in the same spot as Archanists. And IMHO Ten Thunders is the faction that (in general) has the most utility due to the amount of decent Versatile models, not Arcanists.

4 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

WOE - AVERSIONS really should have a way of stunning opponents, it's really what defines the 'dora crew, and why they never end up in my crew.

WOE¬†In the same way, I'd love to see the 'Once per Activation'-part of Misery go. It's fairly hard to abuse ‚Äď other than perhaps with Iggy in a Kaeris crew ‚Äď while it creates plenty of complication, where you need to define, who does what in what order, rather than just check whether the target is within an applicable Misery aura. Maybe a 'Once per Action' would be a better way.

-

MIMIC - DOPPLEGANGER is such an overlooked model. Allowing it to be 'Obey'-ed by Lawyers, would give it some attraction.

MIMIC - AGENT 46 The poor guy was too offensive and got hit nicely with the nerf bat, but as a guy whose defence was a strong offence, he lacks something to make up for it. Simply raising his Df to 6 could go a long way in justifying his presence on the board, making him a melee threat.

Aversions look really good to me with the current GG1, a must in Corrupted Ley Lines and Symbols of Authority, but I see your point. I don't have enough experience to have an informed opinion on how the change that you're proposing for WOE would affect their balance. 

What's exactly the problem with the Dopplganger? That Lawyers are not a higher cost to draw a card after obeying her? I could see how she could drop to 7ss, loosing 1Wd and keeping everything else to make her more interested. However I already saw her in a couple of games (I just ignored her due how complicate was to kill, so she freely scored 1 point from Symbols and a couple of Scheme markers for Spread them Out).

Agent 46, I totally agree, his Df should be 6.

 

@RisingPhoenix I think that Obliteration is suffering a lot from the lack of a hiring pool, in a crew that likes to play in-theme. I agree with you that Talos definitely needs that Stat 6 in "Into the Furnace" but disagree in his bump to Df. With Terrifying and Armor +2, he's already a good tarpit.

I don't want the old mechanic of burying from M2E back, since it was too oppressive, but the crew could use some sort of Pine Box "lasting" burying mechanic. We have to take into account that Obliteration has one of the smallest (if not just directly the smallest) hiring pool at the moment, so maybe there will be interactions in keyword in the future to open new possibilities or improve some models.

I also agree that Aionus needs some love, either to his damage output, resilience or giving him some utility (some card draw in Eventuality, like: :maskTime is precious (or money, but feels weird): Draw a card for each damage done to the target). I also feel like the current pass token mechanic from Buffering is clunky, so I would remove it at just make the ability Once per turn.

IMHO Von Schill suffers the same issue as Brewie, many support models with high TNs and very little to no-card draw. It's also true I've never seen Lazarus in a VS crew, so something should be done to him. I would like to see some terrain marker removal in Outcast (they have 0), so Lazarus could be a great candidate for it and his Grenade Launcher. Does anyone ever tried to bring a Scavenger with Lazarus? Seems like an amazing target for his Rapid Reconfiguration (although needing an 8 :mask feels like a bit too much).

Student of Conflict! How could I have forgotten her! (well, I've never though about putting her on the table, so...) Totally, 100% agree. I would rather her to become a 5ss model and get some real utility.

For Bishop, that would mean changing the attack to something different (it couldn't be staggering punch, since in M3E same attacks have the same range, effects and damage track across all the models). What is the real problem with him having Rg 0"? People disengaging? Then let's give him Wicked. Himself getting engaged by a 1" range model? He already has Chain Gang, if that's not enough to save an action, he also gains Fast, so he's still going to be able to put 2 attacks on the other model. If that still doesn't feel enough (it's been a long time since I've faced a crew with him), let's give him an "On your Heels" triggers in Challenge. I don't think he needs the 1" range, since any issue with it can be fixed in a different way while keeping him with the Staggering Punch (which I believe is an amazing attack action).

I don't see a problem with Taelor, and I had to face her a couple of times. Thread range of 16" for 3/4/6 damage with Stat 7 and Ruthless. 9ss but 10Wds with HtK. She doesn't bring any real utility (Bring it with Wp 5 is lackluster), but she tanks and she kills (or at least puts some nice damage). She also has Shrug Off, which makes very difficult to stop her with conditions.

 

 

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@ShinChan You should think of Lazarus' rapid reconfiguration as more of an urban legend than an ability.  There are only seven cards in the entire deck that trigger it.  One of them is the red joker.  You probably have better uses for a 12/13.  That means there's what, maybe 4 cards you'd be willing to blow to make it happen?  4/54.  Hypothetically, it could happen.  Practically, Assimilate already isn't worth cheating a card for, meaning it'll go off less than half the time, and rapid reconfiguration might happen once every 2-3 games.  No one would bring things to synergize with it, because it's awful.  You flip, maybe it happens, mostly it doesn't.  

It'd be better to give him an attack that ignores armor, something the crew can already struggle with.  It'd be a unique reason to bring him, and the gun would Synergize with Von Schill's Pull! Trigger.  Right now the best model for the crew is Mad Dog Brackett because Mad Dog has better synergy with Von Schill than the entire rest of the crew.  That's sad.

 

We also need Stunned a LOT more than we need terrain marker removal.  We have one model that does stunned and it's on a  bad ability.  Screw terrain markers, I'd like to be able to shut off some really irritating triggers with SOME crew in faction.  We also have zero models that do exorcism, and I'd like it on some model.  Making Sandeep's golems go away is a game changer, and it's silly that some factions can do something that major and others can't.  Again, that matters a lot more to me than terrain marker removal.

 

Tara needs a new central mechanic in GG1.  They ripped out her old central mechanic, and just buffing a few things won't fix it.  You can't gut the heart of a crew and have it work anymore.  A little bit of card draw definitely isn't it - and frankly we could use "Card draw" to stop being the answer to "a summoner crew needs help".  A lack of cards should be a weakness for summoners, buff something else (Daschel's buff was lazy, and honestly bad design - I could go into it more, but that's for elsewhere).  The mechanic of "fast models activate after every non-fast model" is thematic, and would allow her to pull interesting unbury tricks.  And it'd be tied to what is a very fragile model, for 10 stones.  

 

Bishop... he's not very survivable.   It's really easy to just walk out of his engagement and shoot him to death.  If he had more ranged, it'd be easier for him to stay engaged.  Once he's not engaged, he'll get lit up like a christmas tree.  Especially since all his abilities encourage him to go early, that's what tends to happen to him.  

Taelor is just janky.  I can go over it, I have elsewhere, but nearly every 9 stone pure beater has some way to get pseudo-3 AP.  Taelor does not.  Archie, Francois, Hinamatsu, even War Pigs, all can get pseudo-3 AP.  Taelor is just dorky.  Her third AP is hiding in Welcome to Malifaux, which doesn't ever go off.  If her third AP was tied to places, it'd at least come up now and then.  This isn't a hypothetical problem, it's not too hard to just push her around and get it so she can only get one attack a round.  If you do that, she's garbage.  You try that with Francois or Hinamatsu, they'll toss a card and Flurry you - much harder to ignore.  You could give her flurry, that'd be the lazy (but effective) solution.

Can I mention I'd trade either of those 9 stone models for Francois LaCroix in a heartbeat?  Nevermind Archie or Hinamatsu.  If your crew is supposed to be "the expensive melee beater crew" then it shouldn't have worse melee beaters than "the long range firepower crew" or "the entire Neverborn faction."  Yet here we are.  Two 9 stone beaters, and I'd honestly trade 'em both just for Francois.  

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1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

I think HTK maybe it's a bit too much, but 5Wds and Grit(Hardened) or a Grit (For the Family): This models doesn't suffer Damage from his Reckless ability. 

What do you guys think?

If the Pistolero rise his wound to 5, you can use grit only when you already are 2 wounds to die and any model can kill him before he activate.

I don't really see Grit as a ability that would help Pistolero. 

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45 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

@ShinChan You should think of Lazarus' rapid reconfiguration as more of an urban legend than an ability.  There are only seven cards in the entire deck that trigger it.  One of them is the red joker.  You probably have better uses for a 12/13.  That means there's what, maybe 4 cards you'd be willing to blow to make it happen?  4/54.  Hypothetically, it could happen.  Practically, Assimilate already isn't worth cheating a card for, meaning it'll go off less than half the time, and rapid reconfiguration might happen once every 2-3 games.  No one would bring things to synergize with it, because it's awful.  You flip, maybe it happens, mostly it doesn't.  

It'd be better to give him an attack that ignores armor, something the crew can already struggle with.  It'd be a unique reason to bring him, and the gun would Synergize with Von Schill's Pull! Trigger.  Right now the best model for the crew is Mad Dog Brackett because Mad Dog has better synergy with Von Schill than the entire rest of the crew.  That's sad.

We also need Stunned a LOT more than we need terrain marker removal.  We have one model that does stunned and it's on a  bad ability.  Screw terrain markers, I'd like to be able to shut off some really irritating triggers with SOME crew in faction.  We also have zero models that do exorcism, and I'd like it on some model.  Making Sandeep's golems go away is a game changer, and it's silly that some factions can do something that major and others can't.  Again, that matters a lot more to me than terrain marker removal.

That could work, as I said, my experience is none with Lazarus, so I'm happy to add him to the list. Regarding rapid reconfiguration, it could just get its Stat bumpet by 3 (in addition to any other changes, just to make it more viable).

Regarding Stunned, I totally agree, it's something I already pointed out loooong time ago, but instead of giving it to Lazarus (or in addition to give it to Lazarus) I would like to see a buff in Hans.

Tara needs a new central mechanic in GG1.  They ripped out her old central mechanic, and just buffing a few things won't fix it.  You can't gut the heart of a crew and have it work anymore.  A little bit of card draw definitely isn't it - and frankly we could use "Card draw" to stop being the answer to "a summoner crew needs help".  A lack of cards should be a weakness for summoners, buff something else (Daschel's buff was lazy).  The mechanic of "fast models activate after every non-fast model" is thematic, and would allow her to pull interesting unbury tricks.  And it'd be tied to what is a very fragile model, for 10 stones.  

No, definitely no. There is going to be a new GG every year (more or less), some crews will become better and others will become worse, Tara wasn't the only one affected and it's not even to all the Schemes/Strategies, so doesn't make sense making a redesign of the  "most hurt crew" after every GG. I suggested some card draw in Eventuality, in order to get some extra utility from Aionus, in a crew that has 0 card draw. Linking it to Eventuallity makes it worse for summoning, and I'm going to explain why:

  1. Making it a trigger, it won't happen always unless you stone for it.
  2. It would be on an attack, so the enemy still has the chance of resisting it.
  3. It's going to give real card draw in turn 3 onward, and summons in the last 2 turns are way less powerful (specially if they come buried).

Bishop... he's not very survivable.   It's really easy to just walk out of his engagement and shoot him to death.  If he had more ranged, it'd be easier for him to stay engaged.  Once he's not engaged, he'll get lit up like a christmas tree.  Especially since all his abilities encourage him to go early, that's what tends to happen to him. 

Df6/Wp6 autoheal or shielded. That's not Squishy. Being vulnerable to shooting is something common for many enforcers (same way that others are good against shooting but crumble against melee attacks), you can't ask for everything on a model. With Wicked, it would be much harder do leave his engagement range (you're giving Staggered to the enemy, so you'll be reducing the distance that the moves by 4/6/8).

Taelor is just janky.  I can go over it, I have elsewhere, but nearly every 9 stone pure beater has some way to get pseudo-3 AP.  Taelor does not.  Archie, Francois, Hinamatsu, even War Pigs, all can get pseudo-3 AP.  Taelor is just dorky.  Her third AP is hiding in Welcome to Malifaux, which doesn't ever go off.  If her third AP was tied to places, it'd at least come up now and then.  This isn't a hypothetical problem, it's not too hard to just push her around and get it so she can only get one attack a round.  If you do that, she's garbage.  You try that with Francois or Hinamatsu, they'll toss a card and Flurry you - much harder to ignore.  You could give her flurry, that'd be the lazy (but effective) solution.

Can I mention I'd trade either of those 9 stone models for Francois LaCroix in a heartbeat?  Nevermind Archie or Hinamatsu.  If your crew is supposed to be "the expensive melee beater crew" then it shouldn't have worse melee beaters than "the long range firepower crew" or "the entire Neverborn faction."  Yet here we are.  Two 9 stone beaters, and I'd honestly trade 'em both just for Francois. 

Archie is no longer a beater, I would change Archie for Taelor any time. 9ss henchmen that don't have 3 APs (Fast/Flurry/Trigger to attack again) to hit the enemies:

  • Sensei Yu
  • Kang
  • Bill Algren
  • Toshiro
  • Manos
  • Datsue Ba
  • Montresor
  • Barbados
  • Thoon
  • Hayreddin
  • Bad Juju
  • Angel Eyes
  • Francisco Ortega
  • Dr. Grimwell
  • Lenny Jones
  • Snow Storm
  • Kudra

The thing with Taelor is that she ignores a lot of stuff, she has a great mobility and battle Tempo is amazing on her, being able to just move out of engagement with her range 2" against other models with engagement 1". You're asking for more damage output for Taelor and more surivality for Bishop, but there you have, 2 models that complement each other a lot, you can't expect both to be equally good at everything.

 

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50 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Ressers are not in the same spot as Archanists. And IMHO Ten Thunders is the faction that (in general) has the most utility due to the amount of decent Versatile models, not Arcanists.

I won't argue that 10 T is in a better spot. I think that is pretty well known at this point. I do think that Ressers often don't appreciate how much they have access to. This could be biased feelings on my end from when they were the premier summoning faction in 2e and the first masters I played against at the beginning of 2e were ressers. It just feels like everyone wants their crews to be amazing at everything which I don't believe is healthy. 

 

51 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Guild squishy? We haven't been playing the same game.

Depends on where you look. I'd argue that Guild's minions suffer from being able to generally be taken down in 1 shot. I'll agree that Guild isn't universally squishy but neither is Guild the tankiest. Many minions feel like they have fewer defensive tricks. Could also be that I've been playing Outcasts and the minions I get to use there feel great (i.e. necropunks with Leve) and I compare their movement tricks to the efficiency seen in other crews (i.e. crooligans). I'm sure I'd feel a bit better if I played some Hoffman and Lady J, but most other Guild masters and accompanying crews don't have a lot of staying power. 

 

53 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Reichart is a model with engagement of 2", enemy models can't declare defensive triggers, can't be moved, Grit(Hardened), HtK and Disguised.

Yeah, he is good. 

54 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Basse: I agree with Stoic Nod without any interesting triggers feels terrible. Caught in Quicksand, with the last part looks plain bad, but the Sandworm trigger is really good (remember it goes against movement, so perfect to use it with Traps or the Rider). You're also understimating the possibilities of that place, imagine a river that cross the whole map, or a medium-big forest... 

Sandworm trigger can be okay, but I doubt you'll be using this attack to take out a rider. Even if they can't use the defensive trigger, it's just not enough damage, sandworm is once an activation, and you are competing against 7 mv in that case. I could see using it to soften the target and put some injured on it to prepare to kill it but if you want to turn off defensive triggers than you are better off using Reichart.  I probably am underestimating the place. It seems innocuous when thinking about it with just dust markers but it could be gaming changing (board permitting).  I'll have to try to get more use from Basse's placement trick. 

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

Regarding the Forgotten part: Where are the tanky models?

Archie is 9ss for 11 wds, HtW, terrifying, and a ton of healing. In general, HtW gained a lot of value after the changes to focus. As a whole ressers have models with a decent combination of armor, HtW, terrifying, and higher wounds than ss cost. 

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

IMHO Von Schill suffers the same issue as Brewie, many support models with high TNs and very little to no-card draw.

Agreed. 

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

I also agree that Aionus needs some love, either to his damage output, resilience or giving him some utility (some card draw in Eventuality, like: :maskTime is precious (or money, but feels weird): Draw a card for each damage done to the target). I also feel like the current pass token mechanic from Buffering is clunky, so I would remove it at just make the ability Once per turn.

I think there has been a lot of trouble in his design just given that he is a 10 ss utility henchman (something you don't see much of) and on top of that they are trying to make him support a unique mechanic. 

Thanks for the extra perspective on some of the things I perceive as weak.

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4 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Viktorias - General

A melee master, the Viks are okay, if fragile.  Their crew is a different story.  

Taelor: She does not do anything.  Welcome to Malifaux needs to be redesigned.  Perhaps triggering once per round, on any place.  Replace Bloody Fate trigger with Exorcism trigger (to preserve anti-summon flavor).  She's one of the worst 9 stone models in the game even after that.  Just... for the love of god give her something.  

Bishop: The 0" Melee on a melee beater was a funny experiment.  Haha.  Very funny.  Now give him 1" range like he's a real model, okay?  My elite 9-stone melee fighter should not be outranged by a goddamn TERROR TOT.  This is not okay.   He could probably also use something like Combat Finesse, since flavor wise he's the deadliest hand-to-hand fighter in the pits and all, but just giving him a range that's longer than Nekima's 4 stone Minion is fine.

Desperate Mercenaries - Please for the love of god make them Mv 5 so they're okay scheme runners.  Or make their gun 2/3/4.  Rapid fire on a stat 5 gun with 1 min damage is a sad joke.  In fact, take off the rapid fire, make them min 2.  They're so sickeningly bad.  No one takes these.  

Student of Conflict: She's as student?  Give her Analyze Weakness.  Also give her Stealth, or at least Disguised.  She dies to a stiff breeze.  I get that she's cheap, but "she's cheap" isn't a good response to "she does nothing and dies in one shot."  Because doing nothing means no one takes you.  

Mostly agreed on Taelor. She's a stat 7 min 3 melee beater, which is fine (and gets 4" of extra movement per turn, so she can get around), but I'm playing Viks. I have 2 of those. Why would I pay 9 stones for another one. I'd like her to get something that buffs other mercenaries or be redesigned into more of a tar pit model. Things the keyword could use.

Bishop I've only tried once. How easily he dies seems more of a problem than his range imo. I realize the Mercenary "thing" is glass cannons but it's no fun to have a crew that's all that. I just end up going versatile or ook.

Desperate Mercs: model that just has no place in any crew as far as I can tell. Who would spend a card from hand on rapid fire for this model?

Student of Conflict: I think she's fine. Hide her in back and give out fast a few times, and she can drop a scheme market in a pinch (with 6" move).

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@ShinChan It's really hard to have a discussion when you're saying stuff like Toshiro is a beater.  Like... Toshiro.  A beater.  The fuck is that?

I can almost go down the list.  Actually, I think I will because that's how badly this pissed me off.  I will highlight in RED every time you manage to find a beater with 2 AP.  

  • Sensei Yu

Really?  Did you read his card.  He has a bonus action to give another model fast.  There's his third AP.  Right there on the card.

  • Kang

Literally pulses out focus (an action) to every friendly model within 4".  

  • Bill Algren

He has "GAINS FAST" on the front of his card!

  • Toshiro

... a beater.  Hey, what's the AP efficiency on summoning again?  

He summons, buffs nearby minions, and can make them Focus+attack.  It's like he's a General!  Also, he's a general.  An annoying thing in a VS crew, him buffing Undergraduates and Students and summoning things to protect VS.    All outside his activation, like he's not a beater or something!  

  • Manos

Has Leap on the back of his card. Always hits the suit.  Also has Assassin (Gain fast) making this potentially a 4 AP model

  • Datsue Ba

A beater.  She has obeys on her card.  We'll ignore that she's usually taken for Lantern, but... a beater?  Really?  SHE CAN SUMMON among other things.

  • Montresor

A beater.   Are you kidding?  Monty is the furthest thing from a beater.  He literally sits in the middle of their crew and has an aura to do damage and stop them from losing staggered.  Yes, he occasionally executes things, but he does tons of out-of-activation damage off the aura.  

I honestly don't know how you can look at a model who does 2-3 damage to everything Staggered in 6" (as well as making Staggered never end), look at his card, and go "yes, he's here to hit things".  He's about as obviously Aura-centric as Candy.  

  • Barbados

A truly bad model, but hell, you finally hit a relevant example.

  • Thoon

And a second example!  Euripides, how is he as a master?  Not the best?  Hmmm.  Although he does have a trigger to bury things that can cost a fair few AP.  But that's not a 3rd AP.  

  • Hayreddin

Can summon.  Did you just list every 9 soulstone model in the damn game? He has an aura that creates Terror Tots.  

  • Bad Juju

Oh my, Bad Juju.  How could he ever get extra actions in a Zorida crew?  Lemme check.  

I don't see him taken out of keyword very often, it's true.  It's almost like the keyword gets bad beaters because of Zorida's insane efficiency with obeys!

  • Angel Eyes

Another terrible model!  Although we note she's a sniper, not a beater so maybe you don't get credit.  She's still terrible though, so there's that.  

  • Francisco Ortega

He literally has Flurry on the front of his card.  Are you even trying?  

  • Dr. Grimwell

Has nimble on the front of the card.  3 AP.  FFS.  And there's all the rest of the ways he does so much more than hit things with a hammer - like literally denying points by making Hidden Martyrs not trigger when you kill a Martyr target, or preventing your opponent from scoring in Leylines because the model with the Lodestone doesn't exist for scoring purposes.  

He's a point denial machine. Killing things is almost besides the point.  His efficiency comes from making your opponent unable to score, something that's outside the realm of "AP" in many respects.  

  • Lenny Jones

Has an AOE aura that gives every gremlin in 8" +1 to duels outside their activation.  That means every defensive flip.  He's trading 1 AP for an aura that gives everything (including him) +1 Df/Wp.  Called "Gremlin General" for a reason y'know.  But hey, I'll take +1 Df/Wp on every model within 8" of Taelor (including her).  That's exactly the sort of buff I'd get behind.  

  • Snow Storm

Gives a friendly model a Move action.  Also brings a -2 ranged damage aura that renders shooting nearly pointless, but hey, lets just look at the lightning bolt that literally hands out a free action to another model (usually an Ice Golem). 

  • Kudra

Another AOE aura.  And a really obnoxious bonus action... lure-ish thing?  Mostly it moves things through Pyre markers and into engagement with Fire golems, and other things they don't want to do.  As a bonus.  

 

Honestly, they tried to give Taelor one too.  It's Welcome to Malifaux.  It only has the possibility of going off against a small number of crews, and even then it's easily dodgeable.  Dreamer even summons things that are totally immune to it.  I think it's pretty straightforward to say that crews that are supposed to be good at something should have models that are actually good at it.  If a crew that's all about melee beaters doesn't have great melee beaters... what the hell?  It's bad design.

Also how did you do all that and miss McTavish a 9 soulstone beater who is genuinely bad?  His third AP is tied to an incredibly inconsistent action that includes a mandatory 2" push (can easily make him leave engagement) and whose outcome is random as hell - meaning you have to cheat a suit to get it.  Hey!  It's like having your third AP tied to summoning, something only a handful of models in the entire game do!  And not even just summoning, summoning AND conditional, AND you discard a card!  Flurry just needs the card discard, not the incredibly restrictive condition.

Is it because McTavish is so bad he's actually worse than Taelor?  Dammit, it is.  You realized he made the point perfectly.

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I'm not going to bother in keep the discussion, we won't reach any point in common. I said "9ss henchmen that don't have 3 APs". Except for Francisco, that I missed Flurry, I keep everything I said. You started to point out different abilities or synergies that have nothing to do with it. I just went through the henchmen that cost 9 and are not pure support models.

Every model bring something, and I don't think that Taelor is a bad model or a bad beater, due to her mobility, thread range, damage and resilience. I can agree with @touchdown, that she just brings the same that you have with the Viktorias, so what's the point of having another SS user. Well, IMHO the Viks can struggle with Terrifying and Manipulative (Wp 5) or suffering against a heavy condition crew, while Taelor can be the answer to that. Is she a situational pick? Sure, I would say so, but (again IMHO) she's not a bad model.

 

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4 hours ago, ShinChan said:

I would like to see some terrain marker removal in Outcast (they have 0).

I assume you mean non-destructible terrain marker removal, right?

Cause Outcast is the codifier of the Blow It To Hell Marker!

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18 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

I assume you mean non-destructible terrain marker removal, right?

Cause Outcast is the codifier of the Blow It To Hell Marker!

Yep! Bayou has a bunch of models, Ressers have Molly, Ten Thunders have Lotus Eaters and probably there are some more. Also, Outcast doesn't shine for the amount of Unimpeded models either, although there are some incorporeal (Void-people) and the Ghosts of Malifaux.

We do have Blow it to Hell! with Mad Dog Bracket, but that's 11 OOK and we don't have Demolitionist.

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I said 9 soulstone beaters.  Beaters.  Models that are primarily designed to go in to melee and kill stuff.  In fact I know you know that, because you said this:

3 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Archie is no longer a beater, I would change Archie for Taelor any time. 9ss henchmen that don't have 3 APs (Fast/Flurry/Trigger to attack again) to hit the enemies:

Obviously non-beaters aren't going to conform to those rules, because they do other things.  Maybe they buff everything near them.  Maybe they attack at range.  Maybe they hand out slow like cotton candy.  Maybe they do a combination of little things that adds up to value (Hodgepodge Emissary).  They could summon, provide mass focus, or use obeys.  We'd have to classify those separately.    

However we can create a category of models.  "Beaters".  Models that are designed to go into melee and kill shit stone dead.  They tend to have 3/4/6 damage (or something to effectively get them there), 3 AP,  and some flavor of defensive tech.  And we can, roughly speaking, judge these beaters against each other.  Obviously keywords exist.  Zorida isn't going to get the same quality of model that Shenlong does (at least in theory).   Perdita should get worse beaters than Lady Justice.  It's in flavor, and what the crews are about.

By any standard, Viktorias are a beater crew.  They have beater masters, every keyword model except Vanessa and Desperate Mercenaries are beaters, they're all about diving in to melee and murdering stuff.  So, by any standard they should probably have good beaters, since if they have worse beaters than other crews then they certainly don't have better other things.

... and they have worse beaters. Francois is seriously better than Bishop or Taelor.  

 

Was this entire thread just for you to dismiss all the other things and complain about the Archie nerf?  Because boy.  Yasunori got overnerfed, Archie is friggin fine.  Who cares if his bonus action only has a 50% chance to go off, if he gets 3 attacks without it?  We have Lazarus, our boy whose bonus action has a 14% chance to do something relevant.   Archie is 3 attacks, stat 6, 3/4/6. 

You're now supposed to use Molly to get him in position, focus him, and find him the mask for leap (because she draws like 12 cards a turn).   So he's no longer a 10 stone versatile model.  He's actually slow if you can't reliably find the mask, or have a master who pushes him around!  Outcasts lost our 10 stone versatile Mad Dog and our 11 stone versatile Hannah.  Sucks, but we'll be okay.  

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