How to counter the dreamer

[Shakyor]

So recently I saw an argument that a perfectly played Dreamer is the strongest thing in the game and basically unbeatable. That he doesnt show up so much on tournaments because of time constraints and he still shows up. I have to say playing against him he does feel extremely strong. 

 

So I was wondering, lets say your opponent says Neverborn, you say Ressers. At that point you suspect Dreamer and what to guard against that, how would you do that? In other words, having the whole Resser Faction to prepare, what is the optimal way to counter him. 

[Trample]

Von Schtook has some good tools for this. 

Anna Lovelace is great against Dreamer since she shuts down places. You won't have any pesky summons or LCB popping up in your lap with her near. You'll be able to control where these things can't go, which means the places they are able to go are places you probably don't care as much about. Dreamer has a lot of strong elements to him, but his ability to apply force through placement is one of the best parts of his crew. Anna really hampers that strength. She can clearly be hired OOK too. 

The VS crew also has some scalpels that can get into the Dreamers backfield and take out key models right away. I would personally send a fast & focused Valedictorian followed by a by-your-side Undergraduate in hard turn one to attack the Daydreams (I think that's what they're called) to shut down the engine that gets rid of good cards and, for a lot of players, have the +1 initiative upgrade. Val can likely get to one with +1 or +2 movement, fast, and a few pushes. Assuming they're near one another and Undergraduate can get to another. If not these, this combo can still take out something significant, including Dreamer if he isn't careful by keeping friends around. This crew generates focus like crazy, so serene countenance isn't too much of an obstacle. 

You have access to ruthless through upgrades, so you'll want those on Valedictorian and someone else (Anna, Rider, Emissary, or Student of Viscera). 

Anti-healing auras from either Sloth or Emissary can help you make sure you take out some of the models like LCB who can heal themselves back up pretty quick. 

The crew also has the ability to put out stunned, which can really help shut down Dreamer himself. The Professor has a pretty solid crew otherwise, with good  card draw and resilience. 

 

[Shakyor]

These are some good point. The good professor is my most played master actually and he was my hunch to be the best choice as well. Also because he punishes all other NVB Master so unfairly (with the possible exception of zoraida). What I dont like about hunting daydreams with VAL is that you completly deprive yourself of any ability to summon. But might be a worthwhile price to pay. Do you think playing Vincent St. Clair OOK could be worth it, in theory his ability to kill summons is well supported by Transmortis card draw, and attacking incorporeal is pretty great too. 

I actually only have one experience in a local tourney against dreamer where I absolutely destroyed him playing Von Schtook with Kirai as Second Master. But I mean - I did not feel good about that one - Kirai as Second Master for Von Schtook is just totally unfair. (In my opinion the strongest thing in all of malifaux pretty much independent of scheme pool. They should free Ikiryo Summoning only of Kirai is Leader.) But this experience got me thinking if maybe Kirai is a really good answer to Dreamer as well. Especially if you want to fight him. 

Her crews ability to shut down healing is actually usefull and Ikiryos ability to deal irreducable damage is pretty lit. 

From our other - in my opinion strongest master I dont really like Molly into Dreamer, just feels like a really bad matchup. I also dont like Yan Lo, because it feels this is the one matchup where he gets outscaled and cant put up the early pressure. I havent played Seamus at all into Dreamer, but I do feel it could work actually with Seamus himself pressuring the Dreamer hard and taking stuff like Anna Lovelace OOK. But havent really found a List I am happy with yet. 

[Adran]

55 minutes ago, Shakyor said:

So recently I saw an argument that a perfectly played Dreamer is the strongest thing in the game and basically unbeatable. That he doesnt show up so much on tournaments because of time constraints and he still shows up. I have to say playing against him he does feel extremely strong. 

 

So I was wondering, lets say your opponent says Neverborn, you say Ressers. At that point you suspect Dreamer and what to guard against that, how would you do that? In other words, having the whole Resser Faction to prepare, what is the optimal way to counter him. 

I would take the argument with a pinch of salt. But the dreamer is certainly a strong master that you may need to adapt your plans when you find out that is who you are facing.

My view is that the best way to counter the Dreamer is to score more points than he does, and its a little hard to tell you how to do that when I have no idea what the game is.

In general, if you want to pressure the dreamer, then movement tricks, High willpower,  and the ability to pressure him and his crew early on are ways to disrupt the "perfect" dreamer plan. Trample certainly gives one way to disrupt a normal Dreamers plans. If the dreamer player has built a "lucid dreams " crew (one with many models that have lucid dreams with the intent to improve the deck) then you probably need to try and disrupt that (Or focus on your VPs and deniing Dreamers, so even when he has a better hand than you by the later turns, he can't easily overhaul the lead you have. Every turn you can deny a strategy point is a Point that they can not get back.

 

[Sagrit]

Kirai feel fine because her Summon is a bit stronger and faster and because Vengence is a thing in crew with low wounds.
Von Schtook feel fine because of his and Anna's Auras and also because of crazy fast crew.
I would say Jack should feel fine because of Staggered and hand pressure, but haven't try Jack-Dreamer matchup yet.

[dannydb]

The thing to watch out for vs dreamer is a lot of his attacks ignore armour and incoporial so don't rely on them to save damage, certainly going agreesive is good to reduce your opponents chance of doing a lot of lucid dreams before going with scary stuff while punishing his hand is also a good idea as he has little card draw generally (though you might have 2 days dreams with the draw a card upgrade that needed taking down ASAP) 

[CateranLlama]

I know this is going to sound crazy, but I've actually had reasonable luck with new Reva vs Dreamer, given the right scheme/strat pool.  Vincent can execute anything Dreamer summons on a crow.  Between positive flips to any duels (as long as you keep them on fire) and GST Draugr are a better front line than the 5 WP would suggest.  You can do a certain amount of controlling his summons placing with Pyre markers.   And Reva herself is 7" move with a 2" inch melee and positive flips as long as there's fire somewhere near her, so if Dreamer himself oversteps you can simply ride up and murder him. 

(I've actually hired in Anna ook once, but I honestly found her better at creating a "no web marker" zone than a "no summon" zone.  My bases are big enough that 30mms can los her around them, but she wound up getting me at least one point, possibly two by keeping scheme runners off two different web markers all game.  She might also be something I'd consider if I thought I might be seeing Zoraida as second master.  ) 

I don't know that she's the best possible choice.  Probably just I've lucked into a few Dreamers that are newish to the master.  And it does depend on getting a scheme pool that lets you park on the center point and just murder things.  I like Research Mission a lot with her, Vendetta with Draugr or Vincent and Claim Jump with a Lampad.  And she has a nice mass-scheme marker removal trigger for Leave Your Mark.  And you can get good use out of a Sieldbearer's 2-6 inch pushes for Take Prisoner (or Leylines, if you luck into that Strat).  But it may be something to keep an eye on, particularly if the rest of her crew gets some tweaks as people keep suggesting. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Jack Daw is another consideration.

Dreamer is very card hungry, with his summon and lots of TN stuff to do. Spamming discard + executes could be very effective, especially once he loses ancient pact.

In general I agree with the above point - outscore the crew early.

 

[Wyamphri]

Yeah, basically what everyone is saying. Kill daydreams, score early. Easier said than done but it's about the best you can do

[Maniacal_cackle]

Personally I don't agree with the advice to go after his daydreams, especially for Ressers. Any halfway decent Dreamer player is going to have the Daydreams in the middle of their crew, the most dangerous play to be for your crew.

Instead, I recommend focusing more on scoring (and killing their spiders).

I wrote a post about it here:

EDIT: Although alpha striking daydreams with Valedictorian specifically might do the trick. The armor should mean she survives long enough to be really annoying (as the models Dreamer would want to use to kill her do not deal with armor well). If you do alpha strike the daydreams, be prepared to lose the model you sent in.