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Half Crew or Less Keyword


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Off the top of my head, the following crews are typically half or less keyword.

REVENANT

MONK... Really any 10T crew can be as they have such strong versatiles, but this I think is the main one.

Agree with RED CHAPEL, I usually go mostly in key word for QI & GONG, but you definitely don't need to (see above)

 

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I hate it when Asylum and Half-Blood doesn't take a full crew in keyword.....

... ahem.

If you count Versatile, I see a good amount of Last Blossom picking general stuff.

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It won't be too uncommon for Forgotten to be 40% or more versatile and OOK (such as Manos + Dead Rider).

I think really any crew will be common to spend 20-30 stones on versatile +OOK, that is more common than a crew that is typically full keyword (Dreamer and Kirai are the only 'full keyword' crews I can think of off the top for my head for my factions).

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23 hours ago, GremlinDaycare said:

Hello Hivemind!! I've seen passes at some masters where their crews are commonly out of keyword like REDCHAPEL. I've found QI AND GONG is consistently 24 stones of QI AND GONG and then OOK for the rest. What other keywords are really just a master and then faction models or OOK models for you?

A large amount of this will depend on the type of player you are. There are plenty of players out there that will only field Keyword models in their crews. . I've played games where I had to pay 4 or 5 stones of out of keyword cost, and done ok with them.

TT has a strong range of Versatile models, which make it a lot easier to not use keyword. There are probably a few factions with a less strong set of Versatile models than TT, so they are more likely to stay in keyword.

I must admit I have always created my crew to complete the mission I have before me, and if I think Model X is critical for my plan, then I'll hire them, regardless of the increased cost of them being the wrong keyword.

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On 6/2/2020 at 4:30 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

It won't be too uncommon for Forgotten to be 40% or more versatile and OOK (such as Manos + Dead Rider).

I think really any crew will be common to spend 20-30 stones on versatile +OOK, that is more common than a crew that is typically full keyword (Dreamer and Kirai are the only 'full keyword' crews I can think of off the top for my head for my factions).

I thought that in a Kirai's crew is a good idea to add a Toshiro and maybe a Yin if you need her for schemes.

Therefore, both of them are oriental theme too. So, It doesn't look strange in my mind.

 

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In TT McCabe has great options to run with only few models from his keyword, becasue of his artifacts, but from the other hand Honeypot is almost go full in keyword with maybe one ook/versatile or take another master. Neverborn Zoraida could also go ook, but personally it's no fun for me.

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Outcast perspective

We don't have very many versatile models, and most of the ones we have are pretty flawed, or do one thing very well (Hans).  We're getting a box of them, so I'll partially do this with the mindset that we should have more soon.  

Viktorias: I've seen arguments for leaving behind Bishop, Taelor, and Vanessa.  Good ones.  3xRonin go in most lists, but that's 18 stones, and it's partially padding because you've got to bring SOMETHING in 50 soulstones.  If the new box has some good units, her crew is going to end up mostly Versatile/OOK very quickly.  

Von Schill: Pre-nerf, all crews began "Hannah, Mad Dog Brackett" with some people arguing it was "Brackett, Hannah" in terms of importance.  A few outliers went "Alyce", with some that went "Alyce, Brackett".  Now?  Mad dog is still the best model for the master's Pull! trigger.  There's something deeply wrong about that.  


Other than that, most of our factions are around 30-40 soulstones of keyword models, with 6-16 soulstones of OOK stuff.  We have some of the most isolationist crews in the entire game - Hamlin, Jack Daw, Zipp all just want to have their own models (okay, most of Zipp is that his own models are so fantastic).  Leveticus and Parker both are mostly their own stuff, and Tara... eh, lets not dwell on Tara right now.

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Me:  Over the Oblivion nerf?

RisingPheonix:  No, I don't think I'll ever be over the Oblivion nerf.  Those wounds run... pretty deep.

Me:  <hands over a Teddy reaction>

===============================

I may have been the only one not putting Hannah, Mad Dog, or Alyce into every crew; I did often tech in Arik for certain flying/leaping/summoning crews, but that was all.  I also don't really go outside keywords in Bayou or Ten Thunders....I only tech weird stuff into Zipp (both Outcast & Bayou).  And with the exception of Archie, I don't remember seeing much ook hires against man maybe a single model if that.  Am I the outlier?

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38 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

I may have been the only one not putting Hannah, Mad Dog, or Alyce into every crew; I did often tech in Arik for certain flying/leaping/summoning crews, but that was all.  I also don't really go outside keywords in Bayou or Ten Thunders....I only tech weird stuff into Zipp (both Outcast & Bayou).  And with the exception of Archie, I don't remember seeing much ook hires against man maybe a single model if that.  Am I the outlier?

I'd say that there's a difference between "what is optimal" and "what people tend to run."  A lot of people run "fluffy" lists.  Outside of tournaments, I'm not necessarily going to bring "all the OP stuff" either.  In 40K, a game that is wildly unbalanced, the community would regularly complain about that, and how in reality the Guard would never show up with 3 Valkyrie Vendettas and no Leman Russes.  And my response was if the guard in-universe had the resource costs we pay on the tabletop for the equipment they statted up, they'd bring 3 Vendettas and leave the tanks at home.  If we want the behavior of people in-game to mimic the universe, the rules should support that.  

Let's take Von Schill for a second.  Look at how good "Pull!" is when the shooter is Mad Dog. 3:blast/ 4:blast/ 5:blast  on a model that you just got to relocate 4" (so the blast will hit usually hit another enemy model).  In faction you can have Hannah shoot it, 2/4/5, or Arik/Lazarus throw a grenade.   The best choice to use with the master's best trigger on their best attack is an OOK model.  So in-universe, if Von Schill could pay 9 of his soulstones to have Lazarus along, or 11 to have Mad Dog come along, he'd pay Mad Dog.  He's a mercenary captain, he's going to take the best value ratio for his hard-earned stones.

So I'd say if you wanted to maximize your chances of winning with Von Schill into most scheme pools, especially in GG0, you'd bring Alyce or Mad Dog.   Do you have to?  No!  The game rules let you spend 36 soulstones for OOK Malifaux Rats, if you choose.  But you probably will win less if that's your crew.

Worst example is probably Lady Justice, who has the Death Marshal Recruiter - a minion that can make Death Marshals whenever a living minion dies.  Problem is that her only cheap minions are... Death Marshals.  Who are undead.  So the Death Marshal Recruiter is at his worst in the Death Marshals!  He's actually better off with Daschel where he can turn Daschel's shoddy expendable models into Death Marshels when they inevitably die.  I'd say he gets more use OOK than in-keyword.

Anyway, on other subjects, McCabe is weird.  He only has 4 whole models in his keyword.  So he tends to run mostly out of keyword, just because... 4 models.  Oh and one of them is horrible.  I think he's missing half his crew from Explorer's society.  It's really hard to judge masters like that, see Euripedes, just because we'll only really know how good they are when they get the rest of their crew.  That being said, McCabe with mostly versatile models is still damn scary.

 

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As a testimate, UK's own Jamie "Fucking" Varney won a tourney with Explorer's Society declared Wastral.  No upgrades, no versatile, no ook... just Wastral.

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On 6/1/2020 at 8:03 AM, Da Git said:

MONK... Really any 10T crew can be as they have such strong versatiles, but this I think is the main one.

 

 

Maybe I should ask in the 10T forums, but why is Monk so heavily weighted out of key word? I find Monk has the most keyword synergies within 10, and I take fewer Versatile models here than with anyone else.  

 

And I do love our Versatile models! It's my favorite keyword by far.

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19 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

As a testimate, UK's own Jamie "Fucking" Varney won a tourney with Explorer's Society declared Wastral.  No upgrades, no versatile, no ook... just Wastral.

*blink*

Okay, the app confirms this, if you take Desper, Sidir, and 3 Hucksters, you still have to take a Ruffian to have 40 stones worth of models - Explorer's society has no upgrades.  And, we can set aside how much scheming you'd need to justify hucksters, but Ruffians?  For 5 stones you get Df 5, 5 wounds, Swagger, and a 2/3/4 gun at 8".  Chain gang might make them passible schemers, if you weren't in a crew with, y'know... Hucksters.  Or you could drop a Huckster and bring Basse...

That's so much styling on your opponents it's frankly rude. 

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On 6/11/2020 at 9:12 AM, RisingPhoenix said:

That's so much styling on your opponents it's frankly rude. 

I think there is something to be said about how strong McCabe is as well. Honestly, once more games are getting played I think we will hear a lot more complaining about McCabe and Asami (she wasn't part of this talk directly but I figured I'd mention her). They are really good masters that were overshadowed by the whole Shenlong debacle. 

 

On 6/10/2020 at 12:46 PM, RisingPhoenix said:

So I'd say if you wanted to maximize your chances of winning with Von Schill into most scheme pools, especially in GG0, you'd bring Alyce or Mad Dog.   Do you have to?  No!  The game rules let you spend 36 soulstones for OOK Malifaux Rats, if you choose.  But you probably will win less if that's your crew.

I guess the argument here is whether or not we think this is a problem. Should models be at their best in crews that are not their keyword? Does that signal a lack of internal synergy, a poor quality keyword, or something else? That being said, I've had great success with Von Schill in tournament settings (before the pandemic) and casual play without taking Mad Dog or Rusty (and actually rarely taking Hannah. I never bought in to the whole "her bonus is another free AP" and I think she is expensive for just arcane reservoir). That is a whole other topic on style of play and different perception of where I see Von Schill in the Outcast lineup though. 

My contribution to the main topic is that the balance of these keywords is going to be extremely difficult. Some of the keywords mentioned already have masters that are quite strong (i.e. Redchapel) and buffs to their keyword models may but them "over the top." Others, I'm not really concerned about. 

 

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1 hour ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I guess the argument here is whether or not we think this is a problem. Should models be at their best in crews that are not their keyword? Does that signal a lack of internal synergy, a poor quality keyword, or something else? That being said, I've had great success with Von Schill in tournament settings (before the pandemic) and casual play without taking Mad Dog or Rusty (and actually rarely taking Hannah. I never bought in to the whole "her bonus is another free AP" and I think she is expensive for just arcane reservoir). That is a whole other topic on style of play and different perception of where I see Von Schill in the Outcast lineup though. 

My contribution to the main topic is that the balance of these keywords is going to be extremely difficult. Some of the keywords mentioned already have masters that are quite strong (i.e. Redchapel) and buffs to their keyword models may but them "over the top." Others, I'm not really concerned about. 

I'd say that it's a concern if regularly optimal play is to leave most of the master's crew in the box.  Shenlong may have this problem now, for instance, none of his monks are great (and Ten Thunders continues to have an amazing run of Versatile models, even with two nerfed).  I really do think it needs to be looked at.  First, it means that a faction has versatile models so strong that they're perfectly capable of making up a good crew on its own - the M2E "all stars" list problem.  Second, one of the core ideas of M3E was keywords.  So yes, a crew should normally find the best models for their keyword in their keyword.

Seamus is so strong he's often picked as a second master, even with an ability that only works if he's the leader.  That and the utter dreck that is Redchapel means that yeah, he probably needs to be nerfed a little at the same time his crew is massively buffed.  It might kill "second master" Seamus, but give us a lot more "Redchapel Seamus".  And that's good.  Playing against keyword crews is just more interesting than playing against Archie/Manos or "The Ten Thunders All Stars" or something like that.   

I don't think it will be "extremely difficult".  I do think it will take a few tries to get right.  We have the app, we don't have to touch a keyword once and then never look at it for three years.  

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  • 10 months later...
8 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

For the record I don't think that Redchapel is actually bad, it's just that their minions are all basically identical. If I were to change anything about the keyword it would be to give each minion a more defined role rather than being "the same thing with higher/lower numbers."

Are they? 
Those 4 minions already are totally different:

- Dead Doxies with Take by the Hand for extra Movement + the awesome Regret Trigger

- Rotten Belles with their Lure + :-flip on damage counting as :+flip

- Dead Dandies for eating Scheme Markers or Corpse Tokens to create Scheme Markers or Corpse Tokens

- Mourners with anti Ruthless Tech and On Your Heels Trigger plus a bit of healing

 

They all do different stuff with their Actions. But they still lack. Imho it's mainly the lack of movement to keep up with Seamus himself. They just don't synergies this well with their Master. 

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29 minutes ago, Harlekin said:

Are they? 
Those 4 minions already are totally different:

- Dead Doxies with Take by the Hand for extra Movement + the awesome Regret Trigger

- Rotten Belles with their Lure + :-flip on damage counting as :+flip

- Dead Dandies for eating Scheme Markers or Corpse Tokens to create Scheme Markers or Corpse Tokens

- Mourners with anti Ruthless Tech and On Your Heels Trigger plus a bit of healing

 

They all do different stuff with their Actions. But they still lack. Imho it's mainly the lack of movement to keep up with Seamus himself. They just don't synergies this well with their Master. 

What role does each one play? They all do a slightly different flavor of hang-out-midfield-being-kinda-tough-and-killy. 

Lure is the only stand out action.

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Belles melee attack is willpower based. So they are good when you want to swarm an enemy with 3 belles and scarlet temptation.

Doxies are more stand alone. The lead by the hand gives some movement shenanigans, and then they can just stay alive real hard.

EDIT: but what we really need is to just slap the Forgotten keyword on these models. They're way better in other keywords than in Redchapel. 

Even Reva synergises better than Seamus.

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On 4/21/2021 at 12:29 AM, admiralvorkraft said:

What role does each one play? They all do a slightly different flavor of hang-out-midfield-being-kinda-tough-and-killy. 

 

- Doxies are bonus movement and Anti-Focus + tank

- Belles are Lure (hooray) + WP attacks in close combat + tank

- Dandies are anti-scheme + tank

- Mourners are card hungry if they are meant to do something + tank 

 

The main issues is what @Maniacal_cackle mentioned: all those Redchapel Minions only in theory do anything within Keyword (Why, hello love + Redchapel Killer). They prevent some scoring for your opponent while in most games they have hard times to score you points and Seamus is somewhere else doing stuff (killing or scoring). anyways. 

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Right, I haven't been arguing that they are mechanically identical, just that their mechanics all end up amounting to the same thing. Some variety of, "mill about in the middle of the table not dying." 

They probably shouldn't physically keep up with Seamus, but there should be some synergy there that doesn't currently exist. And the minions could each have a more defined role - Belles lure you in, Doxies are efficient damage dealers, Dandies have more active scheming/anti-scheme tech, Mourners get to do something idk. 

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