Chronicle (geomancy) - When a model Heals 0 / Missery - Gains a Condition they already have

[diki]

With the new surveyor (https://www.wyrd-games.net/news/2020/5/20/waldos-weekly-like-a-rolling-stone) ability

Chronicle (Geomancy) - After a model with 4 Heals ....

Does this mean
1) it is targeted with a Heals effect (even if it had full health)
2) that it actually regains 1 or more health it had previously lost regardless of terminology used?
3) that it is targetted with an effect that actually says Heals and actually heals 1 or more health?
 

If you compare it to effects that use suffers damage and suffered damage those effects are very clear if they require the triggering effect or the outcome effect to happen. This effect and Misery of both equally vague to me and make quite a massive difference in play.

EG If you can proc Chronicle by applying healing to model that doesnt need to lost health it is massively more applicable than having to lost health to start with.
With Misery if you can trigger the Gains effect for applying stunned to an already stunned model (even though it wouldn't change anything) it makes it a lot easier to use.

[Adran]

Healing

When a model Heals, it gains an amount of Health equal  to the healing effect. A model’s Health cannot exceed its maximum Health; if a Heal effect would cause it to exceed this limit, any additional Healing is ignored (as though it did not occur).

Page 25

 

I read that as if you are on full health before hand then you haven't healed. I'm not sure there is a difference between 2 and 3 in your options (I don't know of a way of increasing wounds that doesn't call it healing). But those are the answers that I think are right

[diki]

Hi Adran,

Thanks for your answer. I can fully understand your logic but I still find it unclear if that is the intended interpretation.

With respect to 2/3 I believe there are effects which say Heal 1, or Heals X. Due to the mix of terminolgy used, even in the text you quoted, someone could argue that Heal 1 isn't a Heals effect (I appreciate this very pedantic differentiation, and almost certainly not the intended interpretation)

I think you can read that healing quote with a different interpretation. "an amount" technically includes 0. "As though it didn't occur" is targetted at the excess healing amount and doesn't explicitly call out cancelling the fact that the Heals effect overall happens (although I appreciate that could easily be the intended behaviour).

[Rufess]

47 minutes ago, diki said:

I think you can read that healing quote with a different interpretation. "an amount" technically includes 0. "As though it didn't occur" is targetted at the excess healing amount and doesn't explicitly call out cancelling the fact that the Heals effect overall happens (although I appreciate that could easily be the intended behaviour).

How do you think that if a model suffer 0 damage from an attack, would it suffer the "after damaged" effect?

[diki]

Hi Rufess,

The rules clearly define suffers (note present tense) damage effects (typically most attacks have this effect) and suffered (note past tense) damage and effects that are dependant upon one of these are usually very clear (and nice in my opinion )

Have you got an example of after damaged? (I think these are almost always suffered damage, past tense indicating it was actually the result and not the effect happening)

[Adran]

1 hour ago, diki said:

Hi Adran,

Thanks for your answer. I can fully understand your logic but I still find it unclear if that is the intended interpretation.

With respect to 2/3 I believe there are effects which say Heal 1, or Heals X. Due to the mix of terminolgy used, even in the text you quoted, someone could argue that Heal 1 isn't a Heals effect (I appreciate this very pedantic differentiation, and almost certainly not the intended interpretation)

I think you can read that healing quote with a different interpretation. "an amount" technically includes 0. "As though it didn't occur" is targetted at the excess healing amount and doesn't explicitly call out cancelling the fact that the Heals effect overall happens (although I appreciate that could easily be the intended behaviour).

I can't tell you the intended interpretation. I can just tell you what the rulebook says.

The difference between Heal 1 and Heals 1 is one of Grammar. Since all usages use the verb in its correct grammatical form in the relevant sentence (and do so for words such as suffer) I think you would find it hard to make an argument that a model that has healed 1 doesn't trigger an "After this model heals" that doesn't sound pedantic especially since the rule section on healing talks about heal effects and heals and healing effects.

If you are on full health and an ability tells you to heal 1, you ignore 1 point of that healing as though it didn't occur. To me that is the same as the heal effect not happening.  Its even less clear in the rules on Suffer, (which uses the same text in the rule book but without the telling us to ignore as though it didn't occur, and the FAQ on that one (section 1 q7) would agree with my answer on healing. (And a separate section tells us that if we suffer 0 damage we don't count as summering damage).

 

 

[solkan]

Concerning the surveyor's healing-related effect:

• Arguing over pre-release materials outside of an area where pre-release answers can be given.
• Arguing about a rule that may or may not ever see play in the wording presented in the preview.

Neither of that is productive.

Concerning Misery, please note the wording of the "This or That" choice rules:

Quote

Some effects within the game provide a model with a choice, such as “discard a card or gain Stunned.” In cases such as this, the model making the choice may choose either option, provided they have the capability to resolve that option. In the case above, if the model had no cards in its Control Hand, it could not choose to discard a card; if the model already had the Stunned Condition (or could not gain it for some reason), it could not choose to gain Stunned. If a model cannot resolve either option, the effect is ignored.

cross references with the statement in Conditions:

Quote

A model can only have one instance of each Condition at a time. 

In other words, while a model already has non-numeric Condition X, it cannot gain non-numeric Condition X.  The effect is not resolved if you try, so no effects trigger.

 

[diki]

Hi Solkan,

The pre-release surveyor card is in the public domain, the developers released that information for a reason, perhaps part of that reason to gain public feedback about it 🤷‍♂️.  TBH understanding misery is a bigger focus for me but it has the same characteristic's I'm interested in.

I don't know all their intentions in releasing it or for the rules I've raised and I WOULD LOVE TO, maybe the developers might read these posts and might decide to clarify the rules which I find difficult to determine the RAI or RAW for?

"This or That" is about stopping you making choices where you would ignore the consequence. It's not a general rule saying effects that don't produce a consequence are considered to have not happened.

Thanks for trying to clarify my question.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, diki said:

“This or That" is about stopping you making choices where you would ignore the consequence. It's not a general rule saying effects that don't produce a consequence are considered to have not happened.

Read the text in the rulebook again.  It doesn’t say what you claim it does.

It says that because the effect cannot be resolved, it cannot be chosen as an option.  Which means that when you get to “gain Condition X” when a model already has Condition X, the result is “nothing happens”.  Period.

The fact that it’s stated as an example in one section of the rules doesn’t stop that example’s other points being relevant in other sections.