Neverborn v. Rezzer

[Nagi21]

So I've been playing 3e since just after beta, and something that has become apparent to me, is that aside from Dreamer (possibly with zoraida), all of our crews are hard countered by at least one thing in Rezzers hard enough that the matchup is borderline unplayable.  Even if you take out the bad crews (Reva, Seamus), they seem to have an answer for everything we do, and do everything we do better.  Examples:

- Pandora loses terribly because the Daw bubble beats hers, and the other options in the faction outmanuver her easily (looking at you molly...), plus there's Archie.

- Titania can somewhat keep up, but the lack of mobility and lack of damage means that they continually heal and outlast you.

- Nekima doesn't hit hard enough to get through the main beaters of the faction, and is not tanky enough to last (Von Schtook is basically the Rezzer nephilim crew but better since they have actual defenses and card draw)

- Euri is a non-factor since the most popular crew right now (VS) eats his models easily for free summons.  Also Kirai and Molly give 0 shits about ice pillars.

- Lucius dies to Anna and company.

 

Call it ranting if you want, but while there are some matchups that aren't bad, the possibility of blind picking an unfavorable match-up makes anything other than Dreamer too risky to play into Rezzers.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I wonder how much of it is just that Ressers have 8 solidly playable masters, and Neverborn do not. We have two players who swap between resesrs/Neverborn here (myself included), and Ressers just seem a lot more powerful in general.

There's also the issue that the two 'themes' of the factions has ressers coming out on top. Fragile glass cannon is going to generally lose to melee tanky faction, even if both are equally good at what they do. In general Neverborn solve the main problem Ressers have for them (Ressers want to be in melee where they can actually hit you with their powerful attacks, and Neverborn typically have to do the courtesy of getting into melee range). Normally Neverborn manage the risk of getting into melee range by exploding whatever they're fighting, but Ressers are too tanky/grindy for that.

So agree that overall Neverborn feels perhaps a bit weak when facing Ressers.

[Nagi21]

8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I wonder how much of it is just that Ressers have 8 solidly playable masters, and Neverborn do not. We have two players who swap between resesrs/Neverborn here (myself included), and Ressers just seem a lot more powerful in general.

There's also the issue that the two 'themes' of the factions has ressers coming out on top. Fragile glass cannon is going to generally lose to melee tanky faction, even if both are equally good at what they do. In general Neverborn solve the main problem Ressers have for them (Ressers want to be in melee where they can actually hit you with their powerful attacks, and Neverborn typically have to do the courtesy of getting into melee range). Normally Neverborn manage the risk of getting into melee range by exploding whatever they're fighting, but Ressers are too tanky/grindy for that.

So agree that overall Neverborn feels perhaps a bit weak when facing Ressers.

I mean honestly I think one of the big issues is that people keep calling NVB a "glass cannon" faction, when in reality it's more like a glass handgun.  Yes it can still hit hard, but if you have even a little bit of protection, the NVB player has to outplay you to not get run over.  I mean I look at someone like Von Schtook and his crew looks almost pound for pound as murder-y as a Nekima crew, but he has absurd tankiness behind it and summoning.  If NVB are a glass cannon that's an M1A1...

Also I'm not saying that you shouldn't have to slightly outplay your opponent to win.  My issue is when you have to massively outplay your opponent to try and squeeze out a one point win if they make a mistake or two, or don't bring an ideal comp.

[Regelridderen]

Yes, ressers are overall a better faction. You’re right. 

Now that you’ve gotten that out of your system, you’ve got two choices, either :

Get on the gravy train, load up on zombies and win (although you might want to check out 10T or bayou instead).

Or

Buckle up and play some more Neverborn. 

Simply whinging won’t improve anything. That time is better spent painting, ‘cuz ultimately having the better looking crew is the sweetest victory. 

[Nagi21]

10 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Yes, ressers are overall a better faction. You’re right. 

Now that you’ve gotten that out of your system, you’ve got two choices, either :

Get on the gravy train, load up on zombies and win (although you might want to check out 10T or bayou instead).

Or

Buckle up and play some more Neverborn. 

Simply whinging won’t improve anything. That time is better spent painting, ‘cuz ultimately having the better looking crew is the sweetest victory. 

I will never play Rezzers.  I have standards.

Outcasts on the other hand...

Maybe I'll dust off my NVB again when Wyrd gets over their addiction to making sure they don't actually do anything useful compared to other factions.

[esqulax]

I have posted in another thread that I don't get why Neverborn who are supposed to be the fast and fragile faction (are we even supposed to be that anymore? We mostly just seem fragile) get outmaneuvered by Ressers who are the tanky faction. 

Your options start to seem really limited when you can't outmaneuver the other faction and also can't win in a straight up fistfight.   

And as others have stated here I definitely also feel that the internal balance in the faction is off. I really hope this will be fixed with a future errata. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Since speed is relative, question: if leap was nerfed to 'within 4 inches', would Neverborn have a large (relative) boost?

[Alcathous]

49 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Since speed is relative, question: if leap was nerfed to 'within 4 inches', would Neverborn have a large (relative) boost?

My gut reaction to this is yes.

On 5/28/2020 at 8:57 PM, Nagi21 said:

I mean honestly I think one of the big issues is that people keep calling NVB a "glass cannon" faction, when in reality it's more like a glass handgun.

I think we have the most min 3 models in the game, but they are still priced as min 3 models and so it's not often practical to load up on them.

On 5/29/2020 at 5:30 AM, Regelridderen said:

Buckle up and play some more Neverborn. 

Count me in 

[Nagi21]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Since speed is relative, question: if leap was nerfed to 'within 4 inches', would Neverborn have a large (relative) boost?

I would say it would help but the mobility alone isn't the issue.  It's the mobility, plus the tankiness, plus the damage.  I mean look at VS (I know but he's the best example right now).  You nerf leap and that still leaves fast val, teleporting undergrads, and unimpeded Viscera, along with all the tank and damage that comes with it.  I mean let's be honest, would anyone think Seamus is a balanced model in and of himself?  No, but since Redchapel is weak everywhere else, nobody bats an eye.

[74legion]

Since the 2nd edition, the average Damage in the game has become higher. They didn't add health to us - and where other factions have HTW and HTK, we have a void. The armor, with a few exceptions, is not about us. Manipulative mechanics have been changed and are now easily bypassed by focus. Shooting with 8 or abilities like Pandora with 6? Sonya creed(and not only her :)) with her 14th shooting and arson will ignite not only your models, but also your ass. Upgrades "great" - and so I recommend using 6T at once - to quickly congratulate the Opponent on the victory.  

[Ogid]

It's true competitive NVB is heavily dominated by Dreamer and Zoraida; I'd also like to see other masters getting a bit of attention (I've said it a lot lately but... give my boy Marcus some love! )

I've not played much vs RES, so take this with a pinch of salt; but it's a tricky match up for several reasons:

• Bad card draw across the faction and very few Ruthless in the faction; that is going to take a toll (also, so much terrifying makes one of our best Versatiles not so good in a lot of scenarios; Hinamatsu is feast or famine versus RES depending on the model she faces; also she may kill herself versus Kirai's crew)
• Aside for the Rider, it's not easy to get double  to damage in the faction and most models that can aren't the best picks/more reliable ones; so H2W isn't easy to bypass and it also make one of our best ofensive tricks, the focused pluse, way weaker versus them (and they got their own Focused pulse)
• Nekima get countered by H2W and Extended Reach/Take the hit, she really needs to get a few moderate 5 hits to offset how squishy she is. She can still obliterate models with min 3 + IR, but it's a risky pick.
• The damage tracks of our (almost) must pick Serena isn't good versus H2W.
• On top of H2W, they also get 1 extra Wd on top of that (also terrifying or Armor in the case of VS); it's not easy to go through all that defensive tech.
• They have a good ammount of healing, outlast NVB might work for them.
• RES is a very mobile faction with decent punch and NVB have little defensive tech and no good bodyguards; that make playing versus Seamus/mobile models hard.
• Res can hire Toshiro to summon very good bodyguards, alpha strike lists can backfire.
• RES has very cost effective and tanky schemers like Necropunks or Crooligans.
• Ruthless on demand is tought for Dreamer and Pandora.
• Good anti-terrain crews/masters and 2 NVB masters play with terrain; so there are bad match ups / good counter picks.
• VS is a tricky master to play against and condition the inclusion of a lot of models (unless you are willing to give up free summons)
• Also they have access to other very good countertech that a player good reading the match up may exploit like: anti-armor (including Analyze Weakness), irreducible damage, anti-healing, anti-demise, lot of nasty condition play, lure, precise (Mc Murder), Concealing/Hazardous auras, Exorcist trigger, Hostile work enviroment... they have a ton of good tools to work with.

Being said that, NVB still have a few tricks even if it's not an easy match up:

• Dreamer and Zoraida are strong masters that up to now seem to be fending off reasonably well in competitive.
• I suspect Dreamer heavy LD lists may outscale the typical Yan Lo turtle crew that doesn't agro until turn 3 (not 100% sure tho).
• Titania with Blood Pact, IR and a fat cache has a very high min damage counting all the pings, she is tanky and can also create her own terrain; even into counters she can dish out good pain (not so well versus incorporeal models tho). A full Fae crew might not work well, but a heavy Versatile/OOK one might.
• Lucius has good tools: An extra Ruthless model, good card draw, action funeling, Analyze Weakness; but it's hard to play and not sure how good it'd be versus VS.
• Nekima and Euripides might be terrible leaders as the faction counterpicks destroy them, but as a surprise second masters they might work.
• Pandora/Carver and other woes help to deal with some of the condition play shenanigans of Res. Also Pandora may be played with heavy OOK/Versatiles if she face a bad match up.
• Min 3 damage is good versus H2W and we have a few of those; including summonable stitcheds.
• BBS + Rider might be good damage.
• The Carver is very well suited versus Res, but he needs a lot of support.
• Shenanigans (WW misplacements, Arson...)
• Vasi doll BBS turn 1 into mature might be a very good opening that most crews can get for only +1SS tax, Focused even if not that useful for damage is still good for defense/accuracy; a mature is a versatile model model with min 3 that may also eat corpses, Vasi+Doll may both run schemes, go tie something and the doll might become an stitcheds later (another min 3). Might still work versus VS if the BBS isn't deployed in range of alpha strike.
• We still have the good old back to back activation with +2 to initiative with 2 AP; more risky but still there.

But I agree, as NVB doesn't have all that defensive tech, the pressure is on the plays (and outplays) the player may pull off... But that's NVB in a nutshell for y'all: know very well your crew and what to expect from your oponent's one or get reck!

Also as RES is both a very good faction AND has good tools versus NVB (and maybe NVB lacks good countertech), picking a random crew isn't going to work, knowing the faction and getting the best tools out of it for the game is going to be a must in this one. It's the same idea than in this post:

[Maniacal_cackle]

Great focus on what can be done, @Ogid!

One of the roughest games I've had was against a guy who's motto was 'min 3 beaters'. In general I find Mature Nephilim incredibly rough to deal with, since I can't cheat to guarantee my hits are landing. Another generically useful thing against Ressers is the injured condition - most of our stuff is a point lower of defense than you'd expect, and so injured quickly makes everything auto-hit.

Many of our crews have mobility linchpins, so if you can eliminate those we really struggle to score points (Reva, Seamus's copycat, Archie, crooligans, necropunks, etc).

But by and large, Ressers have an enormous amount of variety (like any faction I suppose), so it can be good to tackle them on a crew-by-crew basis:

• Molly: loves her card advantage and mobility, so hurts if you can shut that down/outmatch it. Also huge on activation control, which Hinamatsu could help with (just don't let Molly near Hina, or she'll met her in one activation).
• Reva: If you're able to alpha strike Reva away from her shieldbearers after they move around, it will remove a key piece from the crew. Also BBS to eat her corpse markers will be really annoying.
• Seamus: Remove copycat killer and key schemers, forcing Seamus into awkward situations.
• Kirai: She's a bit slow to get going, so go hard and early.
• Jack Daw: Neverborn mobility will be a massive pain for this crew.
• Dr McMourning: Condition removal is useful of course, but really just burst damaging stuff down with min 3 is probably going to be devastating.
• Von Schtook: bogging his models down can really help, and making use of 2" engagement range is a PITA.

Speaking of 2" engagement range, ressers have a massive lack of 2" engagement (outside of rIder). If you're not constantly abusing engagement range, Ressers will get a LOT more free hits against you.

[Ogid]

26 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Great focus on what can be done, @Ogid!

That's the best way to see how a faction works, also without challenging oponents, it'd be too boring 

Good points btw.

Exploiting the 2'' range is almost second nature for NVB... I forgot to mention it lol. Injured is mainly a Titania thing in the faction, but that may be another way to try to get straight damage flips, Injured + Focused... not a bad idea.

It'd great to see a more detailed master by master options. For example I've yet to face Seamus and that one seems very scary. Which are your suggestions to face that one?

 

Also, no wonder Dreamer is the go-to Master versus Res; he is well suited to face them on top of being a top tier master:

• LD removing weaks is another of the few ways to try to get moderate damage.
• Incorporeal is one of the few defensive techs that Resus has a hard time going around
• Good brawler. 
• Good amount of min 3 beaters and a few 2'' ranges.
• Good synergy with Puppets (good use for Vasi after the BBS opening if used)
• The Carver (min 4 expending a SS, ruthless and anti-Focused tech)

[Maniacal_cackle]

14 minutes ago, Ogid said:

It'd great to see a more detailed master by master options. For example I've yet to face Seamus and that one seems very scary. Which are your suggestions to face that one?

I've not specifically done Neverborn against Seamus, so take this with some grains of salt, but...

First thing to know about Seamus is he IS going to kill some stuff. So a few things to keep in mind:

• Losing models is fine if you're scoring points.
• Losing models is fine if you're trading (he kills one, you kill one).
• Killing his schemers can put him at a disadvantage, and force him to use elite models to scheme.

That really applies to any kill-oriented crew.

Basic Seamus struggles with cards, but between the Whisper and Nurses, Seamus is likely going to be fine on that front.

Mobility and massive shots are a foundation of Seamus' crew, so some things to keep in mind:

• He needs blocking terrain to teleport (or to use up his bonus and a corpse marker), so you may sometimes be able to strand him somewhere he can't teleport.
• If you take out his copycat killer, his teleportation options are much more limited - he will have to get out of danger on his turn instead of waiting on the copycat to save him.
• Distracted is another useful way to slow Seamus down without actually having to deal with him (as long as he can't get to a nurse to cleanse it).
• If he stacked focus, remove it.
• Concealment and other minuses can be a massive headache for Seamus.
• In general just bog him down and remove his insane efficiencies. 8 Damage from a master is not that big a deal if he is having to jump through a dozen hoops to get there. 16 damage from a master is game-breaking.

Smart Seamus players will keep Seamus safe, but sometimes you do see someone teleport him into danger without an escape plan. Punish it HARD (killing is great, stacking distracted, etc).

I think soulstones and other ways to reduce a big chunk of damage can be real annoying for him - he really wants to one-shot things.

But those are all side considerations. Again, the number one thing to dealing with an aggressive, hard-to-pin-down master like Seamus is to make sure that he is paying for it as badly as you are. If he kills your hooded rider, kill his dead rider/emissary/whatever.

And again grains of salt, I don't know the crew that well.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, actually, I have played the matchup once.

Using Dreamers protected to drop Seamus' shot onto Serena, then having her demise go off and her activate to heal back up is hilarious - as long as Seamus can't shoot her twice.

[Hawkoon]

I played against Seamus with Pandora once. While not really that great since Seamus has ruthless, my opponent was litterally terrified of self loathing and probably played too carefully. Just the threat of having Seamus putting that monstrousity to his own head influenced the game quite a lot i think. I lost, but it was a fun game (and I did get him to shoot himself once 😈 )

[Regelridderen]

Pandora is always worth a shot - especially since ressurs aren't big on the shooting game.

But a good amount of ping damage, handing out crows for executes and denying access to triggers, really throws a spanner in everyones game.

[Ogid]

20 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Pandora is always worth a shot

The problem is... Seamus agrees with you

 

Good points vs Seamus all around. The way I think I'll face his crew is as you say; he is too mobile to plan around him and NVB has little ways to defend his models anyway, so the best defense is a best offense and each model should be able to fend off by itself. I have a few ideas of what to include, but I'd appreciate players with experience in the match up comenting on them:

Things I'd include:

• Df 6 models that cannot be one shoted, specially those with some sustain: Serena and Vasilisa.
• H2K models: Effigy(+EoF?), Thoon (which also has Df6)...
• 3-4SS models not worth his time, bonus point for dolls as the scrap can be use to rise them again (or even get upgraded to Stitcheds with the right card) and to incorporeal models like Lysas or Daydreams that won't feed him corpses.
• Candy: Use the last activation and make her reach Seamus; that will deny the 4th action for him; also as comented above Self-loathing. Problem is... no engagement range means big gun to the face.
• Carver: Keep Focused in check and good all around versus Res.
• WW: Good all around, but able to missplace Seamus into a Severe web. However the bandersnatch seems a very risky pick, which would limit her mobility a lot.
• Henchmans and a big cache to buy to damage.
• Something to deny him the double shot combo thanks to the Emissary. Probably the Vasi+BBS opening listed above; the idea is using the Mature to kill the zombi and eat the corpse and as a full Mature; or some displacement (like a Lyssa bring it) to move the Zombi away from the tombstone/something to remove the corpse. Lyssas seem also great because they don't drop corpses when killed and can Freeze the Corpse to get rid of it.
• In general things that drop scrap or that doesn't drop any markers (or that drop corpses but are very hard to kill), seems the way to go. Seamus looks able to snowball hard into a killing spree if he can start using the corpses of killed enemies to feed double shots.

Models (and other things) that I don't know if they are worth a shot in the match up:

• Maurice: Df6 and Backup; however his cover aura requires activating it first, which make him ineficient and Seamus ignores his H2W, also bad damage.
• Serena: Good but not sure how easy would she be to keep alive with Manos Lantern of Souls jumpling around.
• Ancient Pact: Having good cards in the hand to at least Match Seamus' card may be the difference between getting 4 or 8 damage, but that upgrade in cheap minions could make those minions suddenly be worth a shot (yes, I'm still beating this joke XD)... maybe in dolls?
• Savage keyword in general (as OOK picks or with Euripides as leader, but ready to not play much in keyword). A lot of H2K there, which is very good versus him and Ice Pilars that can give cover. But on the other hand a missplaced Ice Pilar might be used for Seamus to sneak in and his mainly OOK crew has a lot of jumpers/flying models able to ignore them. Old Ways and a good card can really ruin his day. In particular:
  • Thoon: Df6 also with how mobile Seamus (plus his favourites OOK are), Frozen trophy can be a pain if some model isolated itself and get bricked); he also has freeze the corpse. However his damage versus H2W is terrible and I'm not sure how he could help to score.
  • Euripides: Min 3 damage, mobile, AoE tactical action damage able to bypass some tech, and Entomb on Ice (another way to deny corpses). Also incorporeal with totem.
  • Cyclops: Df4 make him vulnerable versus Seamus but he cannot be one shoted and as long as he is near of a pilar, he will get healing, shielded amd probably Cover. Cover on demand for other models with Pilars and some useful shenanigans (like dropping schemes at range) with his bonus action.
• Titania outside her own alpha strike set up: She and models around cannot get Severe damage and Life Leech may tip the atrittion game a bit into NVB, she is also mobile and in absence of Molly the concealing terrain may be useful... but min 2 damage.
• Zoraida as second master: Df 5 and no other defensive tech make her risky to get gunned down fast and it'll also reduce the number of models in the crew, wich is risky because as Seamus kill fast and obey doesn't work on masters, she can find herself with not good models to command; on the other hand she may funnel AP into models, which may make some of them suddenly able to keep up with Seamus and his crew. Seamus also rely a lot on his hand, Zoraida Threads of fate can make him discard his hand if he seems to be getting a good one (like recovering a 13 or RJ with a nurse) and can also reset the NVB player hand if it sucks (but this is a gamble as the RES player would also get a full new hand); also the totem's scrap may bring dolls/stitcheds into the game.
  • BTW, would you pick Bad Juju also as OOK to have a tanky node for Eyes in the night? Would you pick a Wisp OOK to attack the doll?
• Rougarou: Has both Puncture and Flay, those are able to bypass H2W (the former with Focused tho) and in a fast model with severe 6; intimidating Roar may move the zombi away from the tombstone or set up the crew's own alpha strike... but with Df4, H2W (ignored by Seamus) and cost 8, he seems like a prime target to get blown up by him quite fast. Drop corpses.
• Doppleganger: Very good model all around, Mimic can copy Seamus' gun or other good abilities in the crew like self loathing and Blend In could make her expensive to kill if Focused in Seamus is controlled... but with a bit of bad luck, she may get one-shoted, that seems like a risky gamble. Drop corpses.
• Wrath: Bring it (for both the Zombi and Semus himself), very good synergy with Lyssas, sin tokens and puncture (bypass H2W with Focused)... but no defensive tech versus seamus other than being a Henchman. Drop corpses.
• Rider: Good versus the faction, but seems not that hard to kill for Seamus.

 

So from your experience, which works and doesn't work well from the above list? Is there other good models in the match up I'm overlooking?

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Ogid, add hard to wound as another good way to (sometimes) prevent the 8 damage. 

Also I wouldn't count too much on denying corpses with your own models - most Seamus lists generate a continuous stream of corpses for him anyway (although it is still good to do).

Rather use the corpses and coffins as warning of where he is going to show up/what he is going to shoot. And of course if you can take the destruct action to take out coffins, it can potentially narrow his options.

Re: Candy, he can swap positioning with Copycat Killer if need be (and also I struggle to imagine being able to get Candy near him unless he wants her to be close).

The spiders are an interesting idea, but the concealing markers will generally be much stronger I imagine.

But overall I have no idea! Best to experiment if you can get some games in against him.

Personally I don't think his 8 damage is his biggest threat, its the mobility. His ability to swap between killing and scheming is pretty insane.

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Ogid, add hard to wound as another good way to (sometimes) prevent the 8 damage.

I wish... his gun ignores it 🙈

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Also I wouldn't count too much on denying corpses with your own models - most Seamus lists generate a continuous stream of corpses for him anyway (although it is still good to do).

Rather use the corpses and coffins as warning of where he is going to show up/what he is going to shoot. And of course if you can take the destruct action to take out coffins, it can potentially narrow his options.

This is interesting, I've seen the emissary as an staple in his list for the great synergy of creating a corpse and a teleport point at the same time; but not other corpse generators that often... Who also take this role in his lists? Gravediggers in my half of the table doesn't worry me that much, those are easy to dispatch; Mortimer/Asura are anoother story but at least they cannot create teleport points for him.

As it's not that easy for him to both create the corpse and use it without me responding (it requires either a back to back activation using end/start of a turn, another model killing an unactivated model and me not doing so or Asura close to him using Accomplice); my idea was including things to negate the second shot removing zombi/corpse as soon as it appears; as you said above, 6-8 damage from a master is rought but manageable, 14-16 isn't; so denying that would be an important part of my list building versus him.

Zombis are tricky because as both the model and the marker it drops counts as corpses, it needs particular models to fully remove it fast enough (either Savages turning the corpse into an ice-cream or Nephs eating the remains); also with how slow they are, bring it is better than Lure to make sure they move far enough to not be in range when Seamus Teleports.

Funnily enough I haven't considered removing the coffins lol. Ty, dolls may be good for that.

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Re: Candy, he can swap positioning with Copycat Killer if need be (and also I struggle to imagine being able to get Candy near him unless he wants her to be close).

The spiders are an interesting idea, but the concealing markers will generally be much stronger I imagine.

Candy using well the on your heels trigger plus 2 moves has a chance to reach him; specially if what I want to do is just put her into position. But the copycat complicates things... good point, ty. Not sure if she is that viable then (especially because Seamus ignores most of her defensive tech)

I'm not that keen on the idea of going heavy in Pilar/Underbrush markes in this match up because I think Molly has a fair chance to show up as second master for him; she may give him Focused, cards and is a good model all around (able also to melt puppets); the last thing I want is investing in markers to end giving him even more cards. Also with Seamus mobility and the Emisary creating more teleport points, I'd need an insane coverage for him to have trouble finding shooting lines without Concealing. It also doesn't help that the main defense of most models dropping those markers are HW2 and Waldgeist/Knights can get one shoted. Killjoy is also a risky pick aside to enable Titania's alpha strike, he relies on H2W + Terrifying for defense (both ignored by Seamus) and Manos is a popular pick for him... if both show up, he can have a very miserable game)

In theory playing the bandersnatch very well and keeping her buried from model to model, she might be out of danger; but Seamus could also just appear out of the blue in an small window of vulnerability and blow her up; I don't think I'd take that risk, that model is pure glass. But WW being a Henchman has a chance to survive (even if again Seamus ignore all her defensive tech) and is kind of a mini-Colette; Molly would limit a bit her options by easily removing webs, but even with her present she may create the web in her turn and displace a model into beater's range... or in case of Seamus into a position with Severe terrain, not Blocking terrain near (and in ideals conditions also engaged with something so he cannot shot); which would make him waste AP getting out of danger; anything that makes Seamus less eficient or slows his rampage is a win for me.

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But overall I have no idea! Best to experiment if you can get some games in against him.

Personally I don't think his 8 damage is his biggest threat, its the mobility. His ability to swap between killing and scheming is pretty insane.

I'll , but as I won't have the chance to play that many games; I rather learning well the match up now from other people's experiences to not having to experiment that much myself later.

His damage potential is something to really consider; if he decimates my crew too fast, I'll have trouble being able to score or dealing with his other models... but yeah, when he is not shooting, he has 4 AP plus Secret Passage, he is also an schemer runner on steroids. But one problem at a time XD; first is not getting slaughtered, then I'll figure out how to deal with him scheming in my backyard.

But it's true I focused a lot in how to keep my crew alive/threaten him, but how tricky he makes schemes didn't go unnoticed. About it:

• Anything that requires one of your models alive to score is probably a terrible idea (Vendetta, Catch and Release, Claim Jump...); if that model happens to get blown up too early, you may get -2 points and that's probably game versus any decent oponent. And even if you get the first point, Seamus will make sure you won't get the second one (it doesn't help that NVB is terrible defending his models, so there is not a lot the NVB player could do to stop him; make his killing spree slower is one thing, but a model not getting killed for 3-4 turns is another very different)
• Assasinate is heavily biased, he can be played very safe and he can also heal himself (so it's not a good Scheme to pick versus him) while at the same time he can threat enemy masters (so good for him); also both the Dreamer and Zoraida aren't that hard to kill by him... maybe the boy can survive a bit longer throwing other models in the way, but I'm not sure if he could survive the whole game and funnily enough, he can get one-shoted even being a master lol; so he better has his play on point.
• Hidden Martyrs is also not so good... the first point is easy to get taking in count he likes to go around blowing up models, the second one not that easy if he can guess who is the other model for exactly the same reason... IDK, maybe this may make viable a good but squishy model like a Rougarou plus several of smaller ones that could be the other one.
• I have doubts about Let them bleed... the first point might be viable depending on the other list, but the second point is very hard with Seamus teleporting all over the place, being able to heal and also a lot of Res summons not having an upgrade card.
• Plus his mobility and totem make him able to contest scheme runners for things like Breakthrough, Spread them out or Sabotage if needed, while being able to score them himself quite well.

The above may also be used to see pools where he might be a big problem and hence expect the pick, a pool with 3 or 4 of the following: Vendetta, Asassinate, Catch and Release, Claim Jump, Hidden Martyrs, Let them bleed, Runic binding and Sabotage may leave the NVB player with bad/risky options to score versus him. So yeah, any advice in this front is also appreciated XD.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Ogid note the zombie only counts as a corpse for him (not for you), so you have to kill it then eat it, which is often going to be very inefficient. Unless you have Anna to zombify it from across the table.

[LeperColony]

9 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Ogid note the zombie only counts as a corpse for him (not for you), so you have to kill it then eat it, which is often going to be very inefficient. Unless you have Anna to zombify it from across the table.

I wonder if Anna would be good then.  Or maybe it'd be too many stones spent on trying to get some value from it.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Ogid note the zombie only counts as a corpse for him (not for you), so you have to kill it then eat it, which is often going to be very inefficient. Unless you have Anna to zombify it from across the table.

Ty, I know, maybe I wasn't clear enough...

That was the idea, growing a Mature in turn 1 and using it to deny the zombie (kill+eat) at least for a few turns (with other possible ideas around Lyssas using bring it to reposition zombies out of range of the coffin, so he would have to take a walk to double shot, hence exposing himself; and being them also able to turn corpses into ice pilars)...

I agree it's not very efficient, but the alternative is Seamus being able to use the big gun 2 times uncontested... that level of firepower is scary.

How other players deal with him if they don't try to deny the second shot?

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Ogid said:

How other players deal with him if they don't try to deny the second shot?

I think it comes down to a combination probably - deny the stuff when you're able (sometimes you may be able to simply stand on the corpse marker), sometimes prevent the teleport by destroying coffins, sometimes just stay away from blocking terrain so he can't reach you safely, and sometimes just killing him as fast as he kills you.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Another thing to really abuse against Seamus is his teleport can really only be started if he is within 1" of blocking terrain (or if he cheats and uses a corpse marker) and must finish within 1" of blocking terrain.

If you can knock him out of position so that he is 1.1" away from the terrain, you've cost him a whole action (or forced him to use his bonus early). Slight exaggeration as his crew can move him around again, but you get the idea. Stranding him away from blocking terrain can really put him on the back foot, and that would be my plan A for dealing with him (although again, not too experienced with the crew in either direction).