Summoning in 3e

[Durza]

<Modhat> Lets all remember to keep the discussion on summoning and not each other. <Modhat>

[RisingPhoenix]

@Cleezy makes a very good point that all of the broken masters have phenomenal card draw or pseudo card draw in the case of dreamer (when your deck has more severes than weaks, flipping high removes the need to cheat).  I didn't think about it that way, but all of the crews come with disgusting levels of card advantage.  Maybe they should be reworked?  Lucid Dreaming doesn't need to be on Dreamer models, So'mer's wall of gremlins with Demise (Expendable) is a bit much, and Kandara is straight up stupid.  Von Schtook's draw mechanic was changed very, VERY late in beta, from an entirely mediocre mechanic (he got +1 in duel totals when the suits matched, I believe).  No question it was undertested.  

 

I also think Third Floor Wars point that things like Dreamer seem balanced around a 3 turn game is kinda valid.  A 5 turn Dreamer game with an experienced Dreamer player is not likely to go against Dreamer unless you dive him and kill him straight away.  While that's a form of counterplay, it does feel like that's the ONLY form of counterplay.

[touchdown]

I haven't played against Dreamer who a lot of people consider very powerful, but it doesn't seem like anyone touches pre-nerf 2E Nico. So as far as balance goes, it's at least an improvement

[ShinChan]

16 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

2/3/4 irreducible, Onslaught, and stoning for Coordinated Strike from Kirai... its a blender

Totally agree.

16 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I personally love Ikiryo's design.  Defense 3, 6 wounds.  Despite Terrifying 11 (low) and Incorporeal, she's going to be torn through like tissue paper.  She's also incredibly dangerous as long as she's up.  Kirai can resummon her easily.  Gives her an obvious role as a fast, fragile missile thrown in to do damage.  But the way to deal with her is to kill Kirai, then Ikiryo can't come back.  She feels like an accessory to Kirai, because she is an accessory to Kirai.

Chompy, in contrast, is a 5/7 8 wound model with Terrifying 12, regeneration 2, Feed on Fear, healing on melee.  In other words, Chompy is a perfectly reasonable 8 stone beater model you get as a bonus for picking Dreamer.  If you do kill Dreamer, Chompy stays a perfectly reasonable 8 stone beater.

I'm also curious if you have anything to contribute other than random nitpicking.  Do you have anything to say about why Dreamer, Sandeep, So'mer, and VS are so far above the curve?

Edit: It's also worth noting that no one is calling the other four full summoners weak.  But if it helps you to avoid triggering any ADD tendancies and wandering off topic, just pretend I said Asami's totem or something.  

Once you kill Chompy, it doesn't come back. Ikiryo will come back every turn, and a beater needs 3 minimum 3 damage to kill her, due to Incorporeal, and she'll put 2-3 damage on you before dying.

Also Ikiryo can easily gain Fast thanks to Lost Love, and those 2 damage don't matter much, since she's going to heal by killing or get summoned back. Also Terrifying 11 is not a small deal. Even with Wp 6, there are 21 cards in the deck that don't allow you to pass it, and everyone that played against Terrifying crews knows how many times you just pass the Terrifying with a high card by topdecking just to flip a low card for the attack that comes after. Is it a reliable defense mechanism? No, but it can drain cards from hand quite easily and force unwanted flips. For a model that is going to come back every turn (unless there are better options to summon due to cards/schemes) it's a really good defense.

Now, going back to the original topic:

I think that most summoners are decently balanced, because most of them have weaknesses.

• Sandeep: I haven't found any, but to kill Kudra to stop that insane card draw. Still, those fire Golems comming with 5-6 Burning and Focus are insane. Condition removal helps.
• Dreamer: You can alpha strike him, fry him with shockwaves, shoot him out of the table. The later in the game, the stronger he becomes. It's very important to know who can force those Wp duels and try to avoid them. Also bringing models that don't allow places are good.
• Kirai: She doesn't have card draw, and unless she's summoning Ikyrio every turn, she's going to be low in life.
• Daschel: Kill the totem, but it can be very complicate, because between Serene Countenance and Protected, you'll need to go for indirect damage.
• Asami: Another one that I have no idea, last time I've played against her there was no covid in the world yet
• Von Schtook: Watch out for the big beaters, mainly the Valedictorian. The upgrade needs to be in one Transmortis model, first turn will be Valedictorian and probably himself or Anna in turn 2. 
• So'mer: Bring anti-demise and blasts/pulses. Kill Lenny or Obey Lenny to kill other stuff. Bring Terrifying, since it's not an opposed duel, doesn't benefit from Bayou Bash. Bring people that benefits from having corpses in the table or for killing other models.
• Tara: Her summoning pool is very small (2 types of models) and without utility. She has to rely in Aionus to bring the summons on the table, so kill Aionus. She's more concerning as unstoppable scheme runner than as a summoner.

As I said before somewhere else, any master/miniature/keyword that is able to generate resources (new models, cards or soulstones) with little investment, are going to be better than the ones that don't or can't. Let's talk Dashel as an example:

• He summons.
• He draws a card from summoning. Also his keyword draws cards from a couple of abilities on his Guards (trail of Gore, Internalk Affairs, Sabotage their Plans, Protection Money). It's not a lot of card draw, it's actually a little amount, but more than many other crews.
• He gains soulstones from corpse markers.

So he generates the 3 different types of resources. So once things go back to normal, he's definitely going to be on the top 10 masters. He still has the weakness, the Dispatcher (and in a lower degree, Queeg) that can be exploited to defeat him, but it's not like you're going to get to the Dispatcher before turn 3, and even then he's quite tough to kill , so that's 2 turns of summoning. 

[Jesy Blue]

For the longest time I didn't think Kirai was that powerful...but this is when I was learning with a friend and we only had 2 crews; he had Kirai and had Viktoria... which means I had Taelor, which meant I was just beating his summons to death the moment they were summoned.

It was after we branched out and played different stuff then when he went back to Kirai and I wasn't playing Outcasts is when I learned the hard way how Urami beats you up and takes your lunch money!

[Cleezy]

15 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

For the longest time I didn't think Kirai was that powerful...but this is when I was learning with a friend and we only had 2 crews; he had Kirai and had Viktoria... which means I had Taelor, which meant I was just beating his summons to death the moment they were summoned.

It was after we branched out and played different stuff then when he went back to Kirai and I wasn't playing Outcasts is when I learned the hard way how Urami beats you up and takes your lunch money!

Urami is criminally underrated (which I don't mind) but I think of the summoners she is very balanced as she doesn't have an abundance of card draw and likes to stay within keyword, whisper negates it partially.

In regards to her health you should be balancing this well, there are plenty of ways to top her up and keep her going though she doesn't actually have to stay alive once you have gotten a few turns of summoning done, obviously it depends how the game is going and how you are using summons but a lot of her models are a real PIA to put down and are hit that tasty ping damage when hit.

@RisingPhoenix I wouldn't say the card draw in VS is hugely untested and the benefit out of it IMO comes massively down to the player and the hand they have (and what you need to achieve). It isn't massively reliable but can be factored in tactically to help. The card draw for VS could be a complete separate thread tbh as it can be very nuanced.

[esqulax]

On 5/18/2020 at 10:21 PM, RisingPhoenix said:

If we look at the more balanced summoners like Kirai or Daschel, we see that their totems are nothing of the sort.  Both are weak, and on top of the general weakness of the master, creates a guide for play - dive of the damn master, and force them to devote resources to protecting them (or in Daschel's case, kill the fragile totem). 

 

I just.... What??? Both masters are crazy strong. Daschel I think is the strongest master I have played in m3, he honestly feels like playing against Nicodem in m2 at his worst. Also Ikirio is really good while Daschels totem is completely broken. And it is definitely anything but fragile. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, esqulax said:

I just.... What??? Both masters are crazy strong. Daschel I think is the strongest master I have played in m3, he honestly feels like playing against Nicodem in m2 at his worst. Also Ikirio is really good while Daschels totem is completely broken. And it is definitely anything but fragile. 

When I first saw Dashel's buff, I went "ohhhh dear, I wonder if they broke the crew." Haven't got direct play experience, but interesting to hear!

I assume at this point that if Dashel could have any totem in the game, he would take the Dispatcher.

Slapping card draw on a summoning totem seems prettttttty good.

In fact, my one complaint about summoners in general is when they can access card draw without working for it (Von Schtooks - annoys me but is probably okay. Dreamers ancient pact and I assume Dashel's totem - seems OP).

Edit: oh, and Asami with that damn "draw six" model! And Dreamer with Zoraida. Edit: Sandeep goes without saying, but I've not actually looked at him enough to have my own opinion.

[Jesy Blue]

I have this dream of wanting to take Lust & Youko into a Sandeep crew and just feed into this cycle of card drawing... but I think I've only faced Rasputina in Arcanists in 3rd so far.

... and what Asami "draw six" model?  do you mean the Emissary?

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

I have this dream of wanting to take Lust & Youko into a Sandeep crew and just feed into this cycle of card drawing... but I think I've only faced Rasputina in Arcanists in 3rd so far.

... and what Asami "draw six" model?  do you mean the Emissary?

Yes, that's the one! It is even more of a cycle hand than Zoraida's ability, but still felt pretty strong when I faced it on corrupting idols!

[Jesy Blue]

It's not that strong...

... and it requires at least one player to still have a handful of cards, and a suit for an Enforcer if that player is not you.  *IF* the stars align, yes, it is a godsend.

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

It's not that strong...

... and it requires at least one player to still have a handful of cards, and a suit for an Enforcer if that player is not you.  *IF* the stars align, yes, it is a godsend.

It's not broken/needing a nerf necessarily, but definitely felt pretty crazy the one time I played against it. Asami's base hand size is seven, so can look at up to 14 cards a turn with just that model (can get it much higher with other models, I think 23 or something from memory). The combinaton of a strong summoning suite (including Jorogumo) plus that much card draw is pretty potent! So worth commenting on here.

[esqulax]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

When I first saw Dashel's buff, I went "ohhhh dear, I wonder if they broke the crew." Haven't got direct play experience, but interesting to hear!

I assume at this point that if Dashel could have any totem in the game, he would take the Dispatcher.

Slapping card draw on a summoning totem seems prettttttty good.

In fact, my one complaint about summoners in general is when they can access card draw without working for it (Von Schtooks - annoys me but is probably okay. Dreamers ancient pact and I assume Dashel's totem - seems OP).

Edit: oh, and Asami with that damn "draw six" model! And Dreamer with Zoraida. Edit: Sandeep goes without saying, but I've not actually looked at him enough to have my own opinion.

When I played him he was summoning in executioners with a free push when they activated and effectively 4 AP. Other than that he drew 6 cards the first round from the dispatcher where every card gave him some other form of bonus as well (for example an extra AP on the executioner) 

But it is true that all the really strong summoners have very solid card draw. I definitely wouldn't mind also seeing a Nerf to Sandeep, Dreamer, Som'er and Von Schtook (who I feel is underrated) 

[eddy]

Dashel is imo super balanced now. He has hand draw but its all dispatcher dependent and works mostly in t1 and 2 later and he is quite easy to kill. Dashel summons are really squishy with medicore stats and nearly no def tech.

Von Schtook minions are crazy op. Hard to wound and armor and +1 wound compared to cost, and easy card draw on everything...

[Shlowmoe]

I don't think von schtook is underrated, he's constantly said to be one of if not the top resser master, and in a faction with a lot of great masters says a lot.  Granted now that not many people are getting games IRL and using mostly vassal, I just don't think he was that prevalent due to the lack of availability of the much needed transmortis box. 

[esqulax]

1 hour ago, Shlowmoe said:

I don't think von schtook is underrated, he's constantly said to be one of if not the top resser master, and in a faction with a lot of great masters says a lot.  Granted now that not many people are getting games IRL and using mostly vassal, I just don't think he was that prevalent due to the lack of availability of the much needed transmortis box. 

I guess it is me being a bit behind  the times then. I just remember in the beginning I never heard people talk about him which always puzzled me. 

[ShinChan]

Von Schtook is really good, in the top 3 Resurrectionist masters with Molly and Kirai. But his summoning is not reliable . You're not going to summon in turn 1 unless your opponent doesn't have any idea of what you're doing. Best case scenario, you'll summon 3 models/game, against an opponent that doesn't bring special tech to stop you.

Regarding the card draw mechanic, it's good, but also not very reliable. I had games where I drew 3 cards/turn easily and others where I draw 1-2 max.

6 hours ago, eddy said:

Dashel is imo super balanced now. He has hand draw but its all dispatcher dependent and works mostly in t1 and 2 later and he is quite easy to kill. Dashel summons are really squishy with medicore stats and nearly no def tech.

Von Schtook minions are crazy op. Hard to wound and armor and +1 wound compared to cost, and easy card draw on everything...

How is a model with Serene countenance and Protected(Guard) easy to kill? Also, a model that likes to stay behind his beaters and surrounded by models like Dashel and Queeg?

[Cleezy]

15 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

How is a model with Serene countenance and Protected(Guard) easy to kill? Also, a model that likes to stay behind his beaters and surrounded by models like Dashel and Queeg?

Shockwaves/blasts are usually the easiest route. Also while protected is good it means there will be a model permanently with the dispatcher and not doing much else.

The dispatcher is good and adds a resource that is highly coveted and very scarce in the Dashel crew. IMO Dashel is very well balanced and also very thematic. Guard minions are mostly wafer thin and very much have the throw away soldier theme down to a tee.

VS is a strong master, in a strong faction but he definitely isn't underrated (and IMO not OP). His minions aren't broken, they are good for their cost. TBH I have never had any issue facing VS, he certainly isn't as difficult to deal with as other masters (in my experience).

[esqulax]

1 hour ago, Cleezy said:

Shockwaves/blasts are usually the easiest route. Also while protected is good it means there will be a model permanently with the dispatcher and not doing much else.

The dispatcher is good and adds a resource that is highly coveted and very scarce in the Dashel crew. IMO Dashel is very well balanced and also very thematic. Guard minions are mostly wafer thin and very much have the throw away soldier theme down to a tee.

VS is a strong master, in a strong faction but he definitely isn't underrated (and IMO not OP). His minions aren't broken, they are good for their cost. TBH I have never had any issue facing VS, he certainly isn't as difficult to deal with as other masters (in my experience).

When you draw that many extra cards a turn, it really isn't that difficult making the dispatcher pass a couple of shockwave tests. Also Executioners have 9 health with Hard to Kill and Mounted Guards effectively have 10 health. Sure it isn't a lot if you are paying 8/9ss for them, but when you are summoning them in I would definitely not describe it as wafer thin. 

[Cleezy]

7 minutes ago, esqulax said:

When you draw that many extra cards a turn, it really isn't that difficult making the dispatcher pass a couple of shockwave tests. Also Executioners have 9 health with Hard to Kill and Mounted Guards effectively have 10 health. Sure it isn't a lot if you are paying 8/9ss for them, but when you are summoning them in I would definitely not describe it as wafer thin. 

If they are using those cards drawn to pass tests for the dispatcher then they are not being used elsewhere, this in my eyes is a positive as it takes resources to generate the card draw in the first place. If they have a good amount of models bunched up it isn't just a few for the dispatcher, its a few for a bunch of models, its the allocation of resources.

It is by no means gospel because each game is different and has individual circumstances but it is an option, just like blasting is - why do I mention blasting? Because it is likely that there is a model to protect the dispatcher close by (for protected as you said) and it is likely that the model in question could well be a df 5 guard minion, easy for most decent models with blast access to have a straight flip and ensure the blast occurs.

Just by using protected is eating another resource, eating into the card draw that should be bolstering something else.

The two models you mention have average wounds for their cost along with the average df and wp, nothing else. They are reasonably squishy (for their cost).

[RisingPhoenix]

Yeah, having dealt with GG1 Tara, putting pressure on summoner's hand requirements really makes them much worse.  Even if they do summon successfully, the hand pressure means they'll subtly be losing duels elsewhere.  It's hard to quantify, because you can't really put a soulstone value on "lost a duel I could have cheated if I just had the damn cards needed" but it certainly exists.  I'd understand the direction of keeping summoning strong, but reducing the access to card draw that summoning crews have.  

Certainly summoning crews shouldn't ALSO have the best card draw in the faction (looking at you Sandeep)

[ShinChan]

23 minutes ago, Cleezy said:

Shockwaves/blasts are usually the easiest route. Also while protected is good it means there will be a model permanently with the dispatcher and not doing much else.

The dispatcher is good and adds a resource that is highly coveted and very scarce in the Dashel crew. IMO Dashel is very well balanced and also very thematic. Guard minions are mostly wafer thin and very much have the throw away soldier theme down to a tee.

VS is a strong master, in a strong faction but he definitely isn't underrated (and IMO not OP). His minions aren't broken, they are good for their cost. TBH I have never had any issue facing VS, he certainly isn't as difficult to deal with as other masters (in my experience).

I never said it was impossible, I said that it's not easy to kill, like it was claimed. Every guard that dies is a SS back too, so the patrol guards fulfill their role. Dashel is very strong right now, I'm not saying OP, but top for sure. Last (online) tournament in Spain, the winner won every game (4 games) using only Dashel.
 

Regarding the VS part, 100% agree.

[DuBlanck]

There's definitely a very high ceiling to being good with Dashel, but the floor is pretty high too - the Dispatcher is absolutely the lynchpin of the summoning mechanic, and the summons that come in are often pretty limp.

The significant problem with Guard is that it is easy to tech against them effectively with blasts/shockwaves, in my eyes. Much of the power-amplification comes from bubbling poor-Df models next to other poor-Df models. On top of that, either your opponent supplies you with Scheme Markers, or you summon off the Dispatcher that must sit in the backfield or die, meaning your Slow summons (usually) come in more than 1AP away from being relevant. To summon off friendly Scheme Markers is very expensive, and flipping friendly to enemy Scheme Markers is dependent on having and spending an adequate Mask - having to cheat a 10+ is unpleasant.

Hand attack, splash damage. and scalpelling out a couple of key models are all (as usually, against most crews) very effective.

[Jesy Blue]

I think it was the last Third Floor Wars that mentioned always bringing Guild Stewart to remove slow from Summons among other things.

[ShinChan]

45 minutes ago, DuBlanck said:

There's definitely a very high ceiling to being good with Dashel, but the floor is pretty high too - the Dispatcher is absolutely the lynchpin of the summoning mechanic, and the summons that come in are often pretty limp.

The significant problem with Guard is that it is easy to tech against them effectively with blasts/shockwaves, in my eyes. Much of the power-amplification comes from bubbling poor-Df models next to other poor-Df models. On top of that, either your opponent supplies you with Scheme Markers, or you summon off the Dispatcher that must sit in the backfield or die, meaning your Slow summons (usually) come in more than 1AP away from being relevant. To summon off friendly Scheme Markers is very expensive, and flipping friendly to enemy Scheme Markers is dependent on having and spending an adequate Mask - having to cheat a 10+ is unpleasant.

Hand attack, splash damage. and scalpelling out a couple of key models are all (as usually, against most crews) very effective.

You can remove the Slow by concentrating as a free action with Shouting Orders from Dashel and getting fast instead from Queeg for 1 damage, you can also remove the Slow with Dashel's Foul-Mouthged Motivation. For what I've seen, there is a bubble with Queeg, Dashel, The dispatcher and another low cost guard (+ Steward) and anything else that is hitting faces or scoring.

That bubble it's not like is doing anything else, since Dashel can shoot with Stat 7 and Queeg with Stat 6. Also, they're in total 18 stones (+4 from a Guard Patrol), which leaves another 32 stones to hire 2 executioners and throw them turn 1-2 into the enemy crew, so they won't bother that much your "resource-generation-bubble". Still, another 14ss left.