Game Length - 3rd Floor Episode

[Trample]

I listened to the new 3FW episode today, which was a tournament report recorded several  months ago it seems. Late last year, GG0. Near the end they got into a discussion during which they stated pretty empathically that no tournament game would normally go beyond 3 turns baring a tabling. They were unequivocal  on this stance and stated that anyone who thought a tournament game would go longer had their head in the sand. Is that everyone else's experience? It sure isn't mine. 

I've probably played in 6 or 7 tournaments M3E tournaments. I don't recall for certain. I certainly don't remember each but with the exception of one of those events, which had 1:45 rounds, my experience has probably been an average of a little over 4 rounds. I would guess, with no recorded empirical data, that 20% are done in 3, 40% in 4, and 40% in turn 5. It isn't uncommon for me to finish a game. Our meta has some really good players and some beginners (I'm somewhere in the middle - I've only won one of those events). Now, I will say that we're often running 2:15 rounds, so we're generally working with a bit more time. 

Some masters certainly take more time. Sandeep is really slow for example with all of the auras and summoning. I suppose if you play mostly crews like that it would make a pretty big difference. I've played several factions in M3E (I have trouble sticking in one place) and against all of them and there are some pretty wide variations in speed. However, the (paraphrased) statement that Malifaux is a 3 round game and we need to wake up and recognize that fact was, in my mind, a bit silly. What's your experience?

[Jesy Blue]

I can get to the fifth turn consistently with only 2 of my 11 leaders:  Zipp & Viks.... that's because I've played them the most so I barely have to look at their cards any more (and Mercenary has no real tricks so plays easy anyway).

The key is getting your reps in.  Once you know what each model in your crew does as well as you know what each piece on the chess board can do, you can play faster and similarly can plan out your moves ahead of time too.

But you gotta play consistently... as opposed to having 3 factions of 3+ keywords and bouncing around all the time.  right now, though, I'm probably back to playing slow each haven't gotten a game since March.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I often don't complete games (although in some cases that is due to the people I play against).

When I do complete games, I sometimes have 30-45 minutes to spare. There seems to be one particular format where games go quickly (relatively straightforward games where lots of models die, like Reckoning + Claim jump being the only positioning scheme). But there are a lot of formats where the game doesn't go quickly.

Personally I enjoy the game a lot more in a casual setting with more time. I'd rather people take their time to think through their  moves then make a bunch of mistakes and feel like it was a bad game.

In tournaments, I certainly write off a lot of masters. In fact, one of the reasons I quit Neverborn is I just could not see ever playing Dreamer in a competitive setting due to time constraints.

That said, in our North Island, lots of the players seem to always finish games within the time allotted when they play each other. So it is definitely doable for some crowds (although they tend to use very elite-oriented crews that are very good at clearing the table).

[dannydb]

The UK tends to go with 2 and a half hour rounds and of the several events I've been to there has only been a hand full of games I've not completed within time limit and the majority of them have due to other factors such as a language barrier or new players 

 

I've often been of the mindset games should be counted as a 0-0 draw unless they get to end of turn 3 this only seems to be a problem in the US, not heard it being a big issue in the UK but that might be down too the extra half hour

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, dannydb said:

I've often been of the mindset games should be counted as a 0-0 draw unless they get to end of turn 3 this only seems to be a problem in the US, not heard it being a big issue in the UK but that might be down too the extra half hour

That's somewhat problematic due to the fact that things moving slow is often the fault of only one of the players.

[dannydb]

Then it's up to the opponent to recognise this and alert the TO to slow play, as sad as it is certain players do try and do this to their advantage and need to be penalised. However it's ruining there own chances as much as there opponents if they just get draws 

[Mycellanious]

I've played in 3 tournaments

1. NOVA, 7 rounds, 2:30 games (prep tourney and real tourney, I had one Bye)

I finished 6/7, one vs Dreamer we only finished Turn 4.

 

2. Local, 3 rounds. 2:00 games

Finished 2/3. The one we didnt finish was vs Asami-Minkao spam summon list. On my turns I'd pass 5 times, while my opponent was playing with literally 12-14 models at any one time. We only finished turn 4. One of the games was a stomp. The final game went over by about 10 minutes but they let us keep playing because it was close(also vs Asami but no Minako)

 

3. Local, 3 rounds, 2:00 games BUT with 15 minutes pre-game time to build crews / pick schemes / deploy

Finished 2/3. The one we didint finish was against a known slow player and we only finished turn 3 (not malicious, just slow, he played Raspy). The other two were finished comfortably with around 10 minutes to spare.

So in my personal experience out out of 13 tournament games, I finished 10, 2 finished turn 4, and 1 finished turn 3. Malifaux is not a 3 turn game, and it is my opinion that it would lose too much in becoming a 3 turn game (but that is content for another post)

For context the masters I own are Mei Feng and Markus. I also keep records of all my games if you want more info.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

10 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

 

15 hours ago, dannydb said:

The UK tends to go with 2 and a half hour rounds and of the several events I've been to there has only been a hand full of games I've not completed within time limit and the majority of them have due to other factors such as a language barrier or new players 

 

I've often been of the mindset games should be counted as a 0-0 draw unless they get to end of turn 3 this only seems to be a problem in the US, not heard it being a big issue in the UK but that might be down too the extra half hour

A 0-0 draw incentivises the losing player to slow down the game, unfortunately. A draw is better than a loss.

Edit: sorry included an extra quote and can't delete it on mobile.

[dannydb]

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

A 0-0 draw incentivises the losing player to slow down the game, unfortunately. A draw is better than a loss.

Edit: sorry included an extra quote and can't delete it on mobile.

That's better though than the players who score 3 points turn two and then slow play turn 3 in hope to win 4-x?

 

I think at end of day thought players and TOs should be trying to ensure 4 turn minimum are being played and people who are regularly not getting to that should be penalised. 

 

Slow play is cheating and as much as bringing iligal crews or miss quoting stats it needs to be punished as such. Just starting the game with plan not to get past turn 3 is just poor sportsmanship at end of day in my mind and should be dealt with as such

[Nagi21]

11 minutes ago, dannydb said:

I think at end of day thought players and TOs should be trying to ensure 4 turn minimum are being played and people who are regularly not getting to that should be penalised. 

 

Slow play is cheating and as much as bringing iligal crews or miss quoting stats it needs to be punished as such. Just starting the game with plan not to get past turn 3 is just poor sportsmanship at end of day in my mind and should be dealt with as such

I mean yea but then you have TO's put in the position where they have to be tough to new players or use a bunch of discretion which can lead to issues with other players and such.  Similar issue with players leaving tournaments early for whatever reason.  TO's don't like to set hard rules that they might have to break depending on circumstances.

The TFW area meta is fairly thick with players that play a lot of aura/summoning crews.  Arcanist is big here and they usually have a TON of AP to burn in the early turns so I can see that skewing things.  But the main issue is that slow play is tolerated more than it should be due to TO's trying to not look bad publicly by cracking down on it.

Honestly something like a chess clock rule might be interesting.

[Maniacal_cackle]

33 minutes ago, dannydb said:

That's better though than the players who score 3 points turn two and then slow play turn 3 in hope to win 4-x?

My point was you probably want a punishment that actually hits both players if you're going that route.

My suggestion in another thread was to have one of the tiebreakers being finished games/turns.

If two players have equal wins, but one didn't finish all their games, then the one who did should be the winner.

This incentive structure punishes both players for not finishing (which is a bit unfair), but at least encourages the right behaviour (everyone plays to finish games), and is not severe enough that it is crippling (since it is just a tiebreaker).

That said, my preference overall would be 3 hour rounds. I think 2.5 pushes out too many crews/players.

[Jesy Blue]

My current 3rd Edition Hamelin crew starts with 18 models on the table; I've played in tournaments twice, and I don't think I've gotten even halfway through turn 3.

There's just too many models, and Hamelin's mass "Obey" gives me twelve more actions on the first turn, maybe half that on round 2.   I don't know anyone who could get 40+ actions a turn done in 2 hours.

Does that mean never take Hamelin to tournaments?

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

My current 3rd Edition Hamelin crew starts with 18 models on the table; I've played in tournaments twice, and I don't think I've gotten even halfway through turn 3.

There's just too many models, and Hamelin's mass "Obey" gives me twelve more actions on the first turn, maybe half that on round 2.   I don't know anyone who could get 40+ actions a turn done in 2 hours.

Does that mean never take Hamelin to tournaments?

Sometimes I wonder how much of it is measuring speed. I feel like I take ages to measure every movement (I'm a bit clumsy).

Although I don't have proper measuring widgets either.

Deciding what to do with all my models is fast, but actually measuring around terrain, etc takes a while.

Maybe measuring widgets make a big diff?

[Adran]

4 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

My current 3rd Edition Hamelin crew starts with 18 models on the table; I've played in tournaments twice, and I don't think I've gotten even halfway through turn 3.

There's just too many models, and Hamelin's mass "Obey" gives me twelve more actions on the first turn, maybe half that on round 2.   I don't know anyone who could get 40+ actions a turn done in 2 hours.

Does that mean never take Hamelin to tournaments?

Challenge accepted.  I feel that I can play any  given crew in the time limit. Now I just need to get Benny and some winged plagues, and to play in a tournement

[dannydb]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

My point was you probably want a punishment that actually hits both players if you're going that route.

My suggestion in another thread was to have one of the tiebreakers being finished games/turns.

If two players have equal wins, but one didn't finish all their games, then the one who did should be the winner.

This incentive structure punishes both players for not finishing (which is a bit unfair), but at least encourages the right behaviour (everyone plays to finish games), and is not severe enough that it is crippling (since it is just a tiebreaker).

That said, my preference overall would be 3 hour rounds. I think 2.5 pushes out too many crews/players.

I just think there needs to be a penalty for not getting past turn 3. Maybe even a nil result with neither player getting points. As I've said previously outside of mitergating factors slow play is cheating and should be punished and diswaded as such. I've said in the past tournaments arnt designed for new players and while I understand this is gatekeeping to a degree as far as I'm concerned I'm at a tournament to play games of malifaux, which state its 5 turns and I'm certainty going to play to a speed that allows that we at least get 4 turns for my and my opponents benifit. Because there are certain crews that realy on getting to the end game and if your going to start going in to events thinking your only going to play to turn 3 a lot more crews are going to lose out as they spend a turn or two building up to speed over people lose out on playing hamelin or sommer say who are the only crew that are time consuming enough to struggle to get to that stage in terms of number of activations 

[Jesy Blue]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Maybe measuring widgets make a big diff?

They so do!  I don't know how I played both Warhammers for 15 years without one!

[Trample]

3 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

My current 3rd Edition Hamelin crew starts with 18 models on the table; I've played in tournaments twice, and I don't think I've gotten even halfway through turn 3.

There's just too many models, and Hamelin's mass "Obey" gives me twelve more actions on the first turn, maybe half that on round 2.   I don't know anyone who could get 40+ actions a turn done in 2 hours.

Does that mean never take Hamelin to tournaments?

I probably wouldn't. One should, in my opinion, bring a crew they have a reasonable expectation of completing a standard game. That doesn't mean you always will complete the game, but it seems like a good  point of etiquette to make the effort to do so. 

[GrumpyGrandpa]

On 5/13/2020 at 5:14 AM, Trample said:

I listened to the new 3FW episode today, which was a tournament report recorded several  months ago it seems. Late last year, GG0. Near the end they got into a discussion during which they stated pretty empathically that no tournament game would normally go beyond 3 turns baring a tabling. They were unequivocal  on this stance and stated that anyone who thought a tournament game would go longer had their head in the sand. Is that everyone else's experience? It sure isn't mine. 

I'm a huge fan of the podcast, along with many of the others out there. They bring a massive amount of content to the game, and their contribution to the community is beyond appreciated by me and my local playgroup. That being said, I always try to take their comments with a grain of salt - They bring very passionate, vocal players who have an opinion that may not always be shared across metas.

A good example of this is their comments regarding triggers, blasts and so forth. Everything is OP, since they always seem to have the correct triggers, or their opponent always stacks 4-5 models on top of each other. I rarely experience this. Similarly, no tournament ever sees round 5. Nope. None. Never.

I've personally been able to finish several games within the timelimit - But I have also put emphasis on that being the key goal of my practice-matches up to a tournament. Timelimit is an essential part of the game, and I'm happy they put emphasis on it - But I'd hardly consider this game ruined due to the current state.

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, Trample said:

I probably wouldn't. One should, in my opinion, bring a crew they have a reasonable expectation of completing a standard game. That doesn't mean you always will complete the game, but it seems like a good  point of etiquette to make the effort to do so. 

I'm amazed how often people bring new crews to tournaments. Like, of course you arent going to make it to turn 5 if you've never played the crew. Of course you are going to run out of time if you own 7 crews and only played each twice. A big reason I can finish my games is because I own 2 crews, I've played them dozens of times, and even now 4 months into Rona I can tell you nearly everything about my Chimera models, and absolutely everything about my Foundry models, w/o looking

[Nagi21]

2 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I'm amazed how often people bring new crews to tournaments. Like, of course you arent going to make it to turn 5 if you've never played the crew. Of course you are going to run out of time if you own 7 crews and only played each twice. A big reason I can finish my games is because I own 2 crews, I've played them dozens of times, and even now 4 months into Rona I can tell you nearly everything about my Chimera models, and absolutely everything about my Foundry models, w/o looking

I mean part of it's that, but also part of it is the fact that there are 48 different crews in the game.  Sure I know what all my stuff does, but my meta is limited to Arcanist, Bayou, TT, and NVB (which I play).  I sure as hell couldn't tell you what a Reva or Basse crew could do, and if I end up playing someone who brings that, now I have to spend time trying to figure out a rough idea what they do and how to work around it so I don't walk ass backwards into an 0-8.  I mean sure you could say that you shouldn't be playing if you don't know how to deal with x, y, or z, but at that point we throw any kind of "anti-gatekeeping" argument out the window.

[Math Mathonwy]

On 5/13/2020 at 3:19 PM, dannydb said:

Then it's up to the opponent to recognise this and alert the TO to slow play, as sad as it is certain players do try and do this to their advantage and need to be penalised. However it's ruining there own chances as much as there opponents if they just get draws 

I think that the far more common scenario is that the player playing slow is newer to the game or is playing a new crew and aren't playing slow on purpose. It can be very difficult for a TO to penalize something like that and oftentimes, in such a case, the other player would be winning the game anyway so giving them a 0-0 would be punishing towards the wrong person. I think that that suggestion would lead to more problems than it would solve.

7 hours ago, Adran said:

Challenge accepted.  I feel that I can play any  given crew in the time limit. Now I just need to get Benny and some winged plagues, and to play in a tournement

I'm pretty sure that you'd be up to the task but I'm super interested in your thoughts on the matter after the experiment so please report back once you done it! (And if you somehow remember to tag me, I would appreciate it immensely but certainly no requirement)

[Maniacal_cackle]

One thing that can help is if everyone knows what masters they'll be facing, so they can learn the crews in advance rather than having to learn them on the day.

At the first tournament I went to, many of us shared what models we owned. The more competitive players didn't, but for those of us that did it helped speed up games.

So another option is registering what masters one is bringing to a tournament and then posting a total list of masters, so people could do their groundwork beforehand.

Not ideal for top level play, but for more beginners friendly tournaments can help.

Also helps to just have an attitude of not worrying what tricks the opponent has - just focus on the basics (what is a beater, what specifically counters your core mechanic, etc). If you just go forward with your game plan, your games will be faster (although results in a lower winrate of course).

So there is a lot that can be done for any player to play within the time limit (though again, I'd rather that time limit be less strict). To me the ideal tournament structure is two days, two 3-hour rounds each day (for 16 players or less). For larger tournaments, harsh timing seems fine.

[Harlekin]

New player, here, who wants to share his perspective on the topic. 

I only participated in two tournaments so far and i really tried hard but wasn't able to finish a single game within 2:30. I read all the cards of my two crews over and over again during the week prior to the tournament. I limited myself to two crews without going OOK. I listened to podcasts a lot. Still, Malifaux is just overwhelming as soon as you arrive at the table. It is a deep and complex game with tons of decision making and interaction. As a newbie I always feel rather lost. 

Don't get me wrong, i am fine with a steep learning curve. I am a huge fan of Infinity and a quite good and competitive player, there. Complex and interactive games with a lot of decisions is my thing. 

I still think that mixing new-ish and 'pro'  competive players does not work so well. The competitive pros will probably go through a bad game as they didn't get their time/activation because of slow play and the newbie will recognize this and also feel bad about that. 

I don't really have any solution for that, no matter which game besides don't take things too serious and stress the "competitive" aspect too much but i also do understand that it is a very important motivation for some - especially when participating in a tournament. 

If you want to attract new players to your favorite game (and thus usually to your tournaments) you will probably have to deal with the "unfairness" of having to face a newbie's slow play. Us noobs, we do our best, but we still want to play and enjoy our game. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Important point, @Harlekin! I myself started Malifaux in M3E, but really struggle to get enough players.

For us, a big (nationwide) tournament was 11 people and a local tournament was 4 people. So being friendly to those people wanting to play more casually is super important in my area.

Granted, things meant to be extra competitive like a Championship tournament should be tighter, but I feel like Malifaux is so small most tournaments should at least be doable for new players (say having played ~10-20 games, which could be months worth).

[LeperColony]

The "Malifaux is a three turn game" sentiment expressed on the episode is really just "Malifaux is a competitive game."  Except it's demonstrably not.  It can be played competitively, but the vast majority of Malifaux players probably don't participate in regular organized tournaments, and most players who do competitive events attend modest regional gatherings.

There's no reason why top tier Malifaux events can't use their own specialized rules, whether put out by Wyrd or done on an unofficial basis.  But the idea that the game should be redesigned to accommodate the small percentage of elite players who are concerned with getting rounds done in two hours is, in my opinion, deeply flawed.